TheRPGSite

So as a followup to my Savage Middle Earth (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/savage-middle-earth/msg1246599/#msg1246599) thread, I think my approach will be to make a one-shot adventure suitable for running at conventions, and try it at some conventions this fall.

The thing about a convention game is that it needs to be easy to jump into for players - without any prior background reading. I can assume familiarity with Lord of the Rings (especially the movies), but not much else. In the other thread, I listed four campaign ideas, but most of them call for deeper Tolkien lore. I think the easiest scenario is the new fellowship.

The concept is an alternate history where the Fellowship falls apart just after Moria. I'm now thinking that Merry is hit by an orc arrow as they are leaving. This leaves him dying, but being the heroes they are, they stay to protect him, allowing orcs to catch up with them. Then Boromir dies protecting the remaining hobbits, and Gimli maimed before they get help from Lothlorien. Wracked by grief, Frodo cannot bear the Ring, and in pity, Galadriel accepts it when he offers. Frodo cannot bear to be close to the Ring any more, so he and Sam leave. Aragorn is called away south to Gondor.

So the big question is -- If Galadriel had to start a new Fellowship in Lothlorien, given a few months, who would it be? i.e. Who should be the PCs for a one-shot adventure? My criteria:

• They should mostly be original, but still fit the flavor of Tolkien, and be believable as people that Lothlorien could recruit.
• They need a wide range for players, and have strong archetypes.
• Rare for Tolkien but important for a convention game, there should be a number of women characters.
• One of them must be the Ring-bearer, but I'd like to leave it partly open. I split PCs into pure of heart little heroes who might bear it, and powerful big heroes who can protect them.

I have some ideas, and I'll post them as I think of them, though I'd love to hear others' ideas.

I guess my initial question is why assume Galadriel can take the ring and not be corrupted? "Only I can keep it safe here" could become "I need to gather an army to protect the ring" to "All hail Galadriel, as beautiful and terrible as the dawn!"

The entire power of the Hobbits was their nature making them uniquely resistant to corruption by the ring.

I think Galadriel sends some wood elves to track down Tom Bombadil, who takes the ring, laughs demonically, and installs himself as the great and glorious Lord of Middle Earth with Goldenberry as his fair Queen. They elevate the Shire as the center of culture in the West, and the Ents of Fangorn and elsewhere reassert their dominion over the forests.

I would think a new Fellowship as you describe would be a bunch of wood elves as stand-ins for the other warriors. Then Peter Jackson creates a new female elf character who falls in love with Pippin and the two of them share the burden of the One Ring as they march to Mount Doom.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 01:54:51 PM
I guess my initial question is why assume Galadriel can take the ring and not be corrupted? "Only I can keep it safe here" could become "I need to gather an army to protect the ring" to "All hail Galadriel, as beautiful and terrible as the dawn!"

The entire power of the Hobbits was their nature making them uniquely resistant to corruption by the ring.

I don't think Galadriel could wear or carry the Ring for an extended period, but I think it is conceivable that she could keep it on a shelf for a time until a new person could be found to bear it. The movies portray Isildur as instantly becoming corrupt, and invented a scene at Mount Doom, but that isn't clear from the books. He kept it for two years before his death, and did good things like plant the White Tree seedling and others.

More broadly, I don't think being pure of heart and resistant to corruption is unique to hobbits in Tolkien. It is a property of spirit, not race. For example, the Sackville-Bagginses were portrayed as greedy for Bilbo's inheritance, and I think they'd be quickly corrupted if they got the Ring.

Let me start by saying I am not a huge LotR nerd.  I've read the core 4 books once over 20 years ago and enjoyed the movies.  My eyes glaze over when others start reciting The Silmarillion lore to me whenever we talk about playing a LotR game.

That said, a few suggestions:

The easiest to get would be 2 more elves.  Knowing the trek ahead would be dangerous and knowing the bonds needed to carry out the mission, she picks a husband and wife or brother and sister.  One is a warrior the other a healer.  Up to you which is which.

Add a human.  This could be any human but Galadriel might seek out someone with a bigger destiny tied to them.  First person that popped into my head would be a descendent of Bard.  They already have ties to the story at large and so might be able to be dragged into the current situation.

You could use that character to also pull in another dwarf.  Maybe one that was at the Battle of Five Armies and stuck with the men of the Dale afterward.

I'm not sure how you pull in another hobbit.  Hobbits, by their nature, aren't out and about so you'd have to come up with some reason another one would be adventuring at the time.  This is a little silly, but maybe tie it into the base hobbit nature and some past inspiration.  A hobbit, inspired by There and Back Again, goes out to write their own book and is collecting 101 second breakfast recipes or something?

Like others, I could definitely quibble over the premise, but setting that aside...

I believe you said you didn't want named characters from the books? Otherwise, I'd suggest Eowyn as a candidate for ring-bearer. Faramir is another obvious choice, though you'd have to question how Galadriel would contact him.

For new characters, you want a Rohirrim, since they're on Galadriel's doorstep. You could also easily fit in one of the other Dunedain, since in the books they come south with the sons of Elrond, not long after the Fellowship does. But I feel like you want to be careful not to just recreate the Fellowship with different names, so you need some outside picks. 

Lothlorien isn't as far south as Gondor and Mordor, so it opens you up to the possibility of characters from Dale, Erebor, Mirkwood, etc. A Beorning would make for a fun option (I believe the Adventures in Middle Earth game had them as a playable race), and I'd be tempted to make the Beorning one of my female characters. For a convention game, I feel like a lady that can turn into a bear is going to be a popular pregen.

For your kingly type I might go with a relative of the Prince of Dol Amroth, who is mentioned in ROTK, but doesn't appear in the films. Playing as a Knight of the Silver Swan sounds cool just by name alone.

Speaking of Return of the King, there's a chapter shortly before the battle of Minas Tirith where Theoden has a parley with the chief of a shamanistic, almost atavistic mountain tribe that's mentioned nowhere else in the books. Don't have the book with me, so I can't look up the name, but I've always found that chapter very evocative, and teasing out that culture a bit could give you the reason to have a barbarian or even witch-doctor type character in the party.

If you want to get super crazy, you cold have a very young Ent. The younger ones are mentioned as being keen to take the fight to Saruman even without Merry and Pippin's influence. But depending on the adventure you have in mind, that might be more trouble than it's worth.

Just spitballing here. It's a fun concept, so I'll probably have some other ideas pop into my head and edit this post later.

I'd go with the following:

Woodsman fighter from Mirkwood - nature saavy and used to fighting evil creatures like Orcs and Spiders
Wood Elf Archer
Sindarin Elf Mystic type from either Rivendell or Lorien
Dunadain fighter/ranger with leadership abilities
Rohirrim hero / horseman

They wouldn't make it out of Lorien...Galadriel would seize the Ring.

If you want to ASSume they somehow do and she gives it up, you can do wood elves, maybe a Beorning, definitely one of the Dunedain (I can't imagine she's not open to other Rangers operating in her territory). Elrond's sons? That would be the most legitimate option, although they're super high level. NPC Glorfindel, maybe Radagast is coerced into replacing Gandalf.

Quote from: Brad on April 19, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
They wouldn't make it out of Lorien...Galadriel would seize the Ring.

Nah, Gandalf or Galadriel could totes possess the ring without being corrupted. They just freak out at even being offered it, for fear of what they would become for...reasons?

Also, there HAS to be a Hobbit as ring-bearer. Protestations of character over bio-essentialism aside, bullshit. Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo all have ludicrous resistance to the power of the ring (sure Smeagol turns in to a twisted maniac, but think of how long he's able to hold it and evade discovery by Sauron.) There is 100% something about Hobbits, beyond personal morality and strength of will.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 04:46:41 PM
Nah, Gandalf or Galadriel could totes possess the ring without being corrupted. They just freak out at even being offered it, for fear of what they would become for...reasons

"Instead of a Dark Lord, you would have a queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Tempestuous as the sea, and stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!"

"No!" cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly." His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."

Nahh, they'd just become Sauron 2.0 and they both know it. If the Ring was in Lorien for an extended period of time while a new Fellowship was formed, Galadriel would be tempted to let it stay there longer and longer until she just took it for herself. But as stated, since this is a game, ignore the inevitable.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 01:34:29 PM
So the big question is -- If Galadriel had to start a new Fellowship in Lothlorien, given a few months, who would it be? i.e. Who should be the PCs for a one-shot adventure? My criteria:

• They should mostly be original, but still fit the flavor of Tolkien, and be believable as people that Lothlorien could recruit.
• They need a wide range for players, and have strong archetypes.
• Rare for Tolkien but important for a convention game, there should be a number of women characters.
• One of them must be the Ring-bearer, but I'd like to leave it partly open. I split PCs into pure of heart little heroes who might bear it, and powerful big heroes who can protect them.

For bullet 3, make sure all characters have a male and a female version.

Version 1: It was important for the original fellowship to have members from all of the free races, so I wouldn't go with "all Elves."  Also, avoid making the new characters stand-ins for the old. No one wants to be "the new Gimli" and you don't need exactly four Hobbits. Pick characters from regions that we didn't see much of in the book-- like an Elf from the Gray Havens, a Dwarf from the Iron Hills, or a knight of Dol Amroth (human).

Version 2: Galadriel needs to assemble a new fellowship in a hurry, so she can't be picky. The party consists of the "B team." Under-achievers, rogues, never-do-wells, even criminals. Will they seize the chance for redemption, or will The Ring corrupt their already imperfect natures? Not as dark as "The Suicide Squad," but it's basically the same idea.

Quote from: GamerforHire on April 19, 2023, 02:01:04 PM
I think Galadriel sends some wood elves to track down Tom Bombadil, who takes the ring, laughs demonically, and installs himself as the great and glorious Lord of Middle Earth with Goldenberry as his fair Queen. They elevate the Shire as the center of culture in the West, and the Ents of Fangorn and elsewhere reassert their dominion over the forests.

This is a great idea! Tom gets so little respect in the movies and games.

Hour 2 of the session, the players sing a song of their own composition to Tom and Goldberry.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 01:34:29 PM
If Galadriel had to start a new Fellowship in Lothlorien, given a few months, who would it be?

Would there not be a backup team already in place? If a single orc arrow is enough to collapse the fellowship, someone - probably Gandalf - would have sensed this and they would have prepared a shadow fellowship to take over. Hence, it's not on Galadriel to organize this hastily. She may have input and even provide an elf or two, but the core of the shadow fellowship is nearby and awaiting the call.

Thanks, rgalex, ForgottenF, and TheSpaniard. First, a few clarifications. I'm open to changing the scenario, but these are my givens:

• The first Fellowship has to completely die or fall apart, and a new one assembled at Lothlorien.
• I'm pretty set on after Moria as the best breaking point. Based on the timeline, I think it's ideal.
• I want it to be clear from the start that even though it's the same problem (destroy the Ring), we're not walking through the LotR story or characters.

As to how to accomplish that, I have my ideas, but I'm still open.

• I lean towards 5 players, but maybe 10 pre-generated character choices. That makes player choice important.
• For aesthetic reasons, I 'd prefer none of the characters be substitutes for the original. So no gruff axe-wielding dwarf, noble ranger, high-minded elf archer. There can be dwarves, but they should be very different than Gimli.

Also, on reflection, it isn't necessary for Galadriel to temporarily keep the Ring. Frodo can just stay and pass it on directly to his replacement.

From rgalex:

• Elf pair warrior/healer. (brother/sister or husband/wife) - Elves should be an option from Lothlorien, but I'd want to avoid copying both Legolas and Arwen, so they need a hook.
• Descendent of Bard - Possible, but their descent is just a background fact. It leaves open what they're like.
• Dwarf from Battle of Five Armies - Possible, but I need to avoid a substitute for Gimli. I'm thinking about a dwarf scholar who is no fighter, but has studied maps and lore from the distant past of Mordor. (A thousand years ago in early Third Age when Gondor still controlled it.)
• Hobbit inspired by Bilbo's book - As you say, it's a little silly, plus how would they get to Lothlorien? For a hobbit, I might break my rule of thumb and allow Pippin as a PC. Having Pippin with grief from losing Merry and going into Mordor might be different enough from the book.

From ForgottenF

• Eowyn - I like this, and I agree she'd be a good candidate for Ring-bearer. I'm not against named characters per se. I just want it super-clear that this isn't repeating the book.
• Beorning woman - Agree completely. One of my past LotR PCs was a Beorning woman and skin-changer (ref) (https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/northernshadow/). I think a granddaughter of Beorn would make a great PC.
• Knight of the Silver Swan - Possible, but I need a distinct hook for him not to be a substitute for Boromir.
• Shamanistic mountain tribe witch doctor (that Theoden parleyed with in LotR) - Cool!!! I have to look this up as I don't remember it.
• Very young ent - Cool idea, but it seems unworkable to send an Ent to sneak into Mordor even if very young. Maybe a long-lost ent-wife? They tend smaller plants, so they could be smaller and more mobile.

From The Spaniard:

• Woodsman fighter from Mirkwood - Good possibility. I'm thinking about how to make them more iconic or compelling.
• Wood Elf Archer - This runs into being a substitute for Legolas.
• Sindarin Elf Mystic type from either Rivendell or Lorien - I like having a mystic, as it is different than other Tolkien elves, but I'm not sure how it would work. I am avoiding PC spells in my system.
• Dunadain fighter/ranger with leadership abilities - This runs into being a substitute for Aragorn.
• Rohirrim hero / horseman - Considering, but they won't have horses going into Mordor, so horseman shouldn't be key to their archetype.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 19, 2023, 05:40:40 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 01:34:29 PM
If Galadriel had to start a new Fellowship in Lothlorien, given a few months, who would it be?

Would there not be a backup team already in place? If a single orc arrow is enough to collapse the fellowship, someone - probably Gandalf - would have sensed this and they would have prepared a shadow fellowship to take over. Hence, it's not on Galadriel to organize this hastily. She may have input and even provide an elf or two, but the core of the shadow fellowship is nearby and awaiting the call.

I don't think so. Galadriel might have had a few weeks advance notice, but it wasn't planned that the Fellowship would come to Lothlorien. Their choice to go through Moria was unexpected.

In the book, Gandalf realizes the nature of the Ring in April 3018 - but he goes straight to Saruman and is imprisoned. It was in late October that the decision was made in Rivendell to take the Ring to Mordor and destroy it. Before that, there was no plan to even have a fellowship. In late January 3019, the Fellowship arrives in Lothlorien.

It is possible for news to have travelled from Rivendell to Lothlorien faster. Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir were supposedly paving the way for the Fellowship. I'm not sure if their path was defined, so maybe they (or someone else) could have informed Galadriel in December. Still, there was no way to expect that the fellowship was even arriving at all, let alone that they would need a full replacement.

Radagast the Brown - the last Maiar in Middle Earth not corrupted by Sauron. Not as formidable as Gandalf, but must rise to the occasion in these desperate times

Peregrine Took - Merry's dead. Frodo left and Sam with him. Leaving a much darker, thousand-yard-stare, PTSD, consumed with guilt and vengeance version of Pippin determined to carry on if only so that Merry's death might mean something.

Are there any remnants of Smeagol's people still dwelling along the shores of the Anduin, hidden and protected by the elves of Lothlorien? Perhaps even a descendant of Smeagol's family who feels there's an ancestral burden to take up, with Pippin as his protector.

Second a Beorning, dwarf from the Lonely Mountain, a Rohirrim, young ent (or ent-wife!), wood elf, descendant of Bard.

To Grognard GM and Geekybugle -- as I said, Galadriel temporarily keeping the Ring is a device that isn't necessary. On reflection, I can just have Frodo pass it to the next bearer. However, as for who could be a bearer and what the Ring's power is, that's rather central to this scenario.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 04:46:41 PM
Also, there HAS to be a Hobbit as ring-bearer. Protestations of character over bio-essentialism aside, bullshit. Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo all have ludicrous resistance to the power of the ring (sure Smeagol turns in to a twisted maniac, but think of how long he's able to hold it and evade discovery by Sauron.) There is 100% something about Hobbits, beyond personal morality and strength of will.

Within minutes of simply being in the Ring's presence, Smeagol turned from an ordinary (presumably non-murderous) hobbit into someone who murdered his cousin Deagol just to get it. So I don't agree that he had ludicrous resistance to its power. That he didn't draw Sauron's attention may have more to do with the state Sauron was in at the time, or might have been due to his weakness, but he was thoroughly corrupted immediately.

Isildur held the Ring for two years, with no mention of his becoming evil or Sauron's pawn. (The movies invented a scene where Elrond brought him to Mount Doom and told him to destroy it, but as far as I can tell, that isn't how it happened in Tolkien.)
During the two years, Isildur didn't either bring it to Sauron willingly or use it for his own evil ends.

So it seems to me that the Ring had more power over Smeagol than over Isildur.

Hence, I don't think it is inherently a hobbit thing. One could extrapolate that, but it's reasoning from only four cases.

I'd suggest that instead of Moria that your alternate timeline begin with Frodo's injury en route to Rivendell... the rescue comes too late and Frodo succumbs to his wound. Sam holds the Ring for now, but without Frodo's recovery to consider, the meeting at Rivendell comes before Gandalf escapes Saruman and with different representatives coming to the rushed meeting (i.e. the PCs) who form a different Fellowship (who without Gimli would never even think to go through Moria).

Even if Galadriel had the will to shelf the ring, she's wise enough to know that its influence would soon lead to tragedy and division in her kingdom.  So, she'd have to send it away.

It's Lothlorien so the fellowship will mostly be elves mainly scouts and probably a couple tough fighters as well but perhaps there's a few others of other kindreds who languish in the dungeons because they wouldn't stay away but weren't horrible enough to kill outright.

A hobbit of the sort of vagabond who'll dig a hole in any sandy hill and move in.  Rebbeca Smalltoes is a wanderer unable to abide the rigid societal conventions of Breeland, she wanders the world getting into trouble and eventually wound up trying to get into Lorien on a bar bet.

Tara and Bofud, a couple dwarves who were trying to get to Moria but lost their way.  These two are a married couple on the run because they've eloped and her father had other plans.  They're cute together but nobody can tell them apart.

Emily, an orphan peasant girl from south of Mirkwood, she fled an abusive step family as a child and the various active maia in the spirit world took a shine to her and watch over her.  She's not a witch or a wizard but stuff happens around her.

Dogwittle, an adventurous fisherman who's wandered up the river and into the woods.  He's middle aged, familyless, and swings between deep depression and wild excitement.  He sings, he hums, and he fishes.  The elves have never quite known what to do with him but he's harmless and amusing so they let him stay and he hasn't shown any sign of leaving at any rate.  He's half Puddleglum and half Tom Bombadil but he's wiser and deeper than he lets on.  He's also on a first name basis with Treebeard and took the time to learn it in old Entish at some point but he doesn't brag about it.

Lets do some elves, I'm not going to do them in Elvish if that's your thing, knock yourselves out.

Clear Skies once met the blue wizards and fell in love with one.  She's always wanted to follow their footsteps into the east but never got around to it.  "A thousand years ago? Really?  Has it been that long?"  She's a master of the woods and knows all the plants and their properties.  In MERP she'd be an Animist, but she's a fair shot with a bow and can blend into the background insanely well.

Swift Shadow is a master hunter and a crack shot with a long bow.  He's fast on his feet and perhaps a little too quick to act.  He secretly loathes humans.  He met Orome once, long, long ago and learned certain secrets about the behavior of animals.  He has a dog but it never measures up to his expectations and has yet to talk.

Far Seeker has wandered the world and even visted Mirkwood.  She has been busy creating a mosaic map out of pebbles for a few centuries but she's anxious to get out and refresh her memory on the details.  She's the guide who has some idea of the lay of the land.  She even went to Mordor once before the watch of Gondor faded.

Good Steel is a warrior and has been waiting for another decent war since the last alliance.  He actually fought on the side of the Dwarves during the Goblin wars but somehow got left out of the histories by both sides.  One thing they could agree on is that nobody invited him.  Good Steel makes a great show of not caring about the ring and just being gungho to get out and fight, but he really, really wants the ring and has no qualms about becoming a dark lord.

Joyus Morning is a warrior and she doesn't trust Good Steel.  That's her motive for volunteering.  The only thing is that she doesn't trust anyone.  She's spent her whole life training to keep the world out of Lorien and she's terrified but she's more terrifiec that Good Steel will get the ring.  That's why she keeps flirting with him.

Fair Leaf understands the language of birds.  She's on good terms with the great eagles, ravens, and even the occasional crow.  The birds bring her tidings from all ove the world so she's the most informed and up to date member of the fellowship.  She lost her mother in the dark days after Moria fell and wishes they didn't have to bring the dwarfs but she'll be glad to have them out of Lorien.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 06:39:55 PM
To Grognard GM and Geekybugle -- as I said, Galadriel temporarily keeping the Ring is a device that isn't necessary. On reflection, I can just have Frodo pass it to the next bearer. However, as for who could be a bearer and what the Ring's power is, that's rather central to this scenario.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 04:46:41 PM
Also, there HAS to be a Hobbit as ring-bearer. Protestations of character over bio-essentialism aside, bullshit. Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo all have ludicrous resistance to the power of the ring (sure Smeagol turns in to a twisted maniac, but think of how long he's able to hold it and evade discovery by Sauron.) There is 100% something about Hobbits, beyond personal morality and strength of will.

Within minutes of simply being in the Ring's presence, Smeagol turned from an ordinary (presumably non-murderous) hobbit into someone who murdered his cousin Deagol just to get it. So I don't agree that he had ludicrous resistance to its power. That he didn't draw Sauron's attention may have more to do with the state Sauron was in at the time, or might have been due to his weakness, but he was thoroughly corrupted immediately.

Isildur held the Ring for two years, with no mention of his becoming evil or Sauron's pawn. (The movies invented a scene where Elrond brought him to Mount Doom and told him to destroy it, but as far as I can tell, that isn't how it happened in Tolkien.)
During the two years, Isildur didn't either bring it to Sauron willingly or use it for his own evil ends.

So it seems to me that the Ring had more power over Smeagol than over Isildur.

Hence, I don't think it is inherently a hobbit thing. One could extrapolate that, but it's reasoning from only four cases.

Me thinks you have me mistaken with someone else, I haven't commented in this thread before now.

My only input would be: you can't have a new fellowship, but that's just me you do you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2023, 07:35:32 PM
Me thinks you have me mistaken with someone else, I haven't commented in this thread before now.

My only input would be: you can't have a new fellowship, but that's just me you do you.

Whoops. Sorry about that. Looking back, I must have meant Brad.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 07:38:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2023, 07:35:32 PM
Me thinks you have me mistaken with someone else, I haven't commented in this thread before now.

My only input would be: you can't have a new fellowship, but that's just me you do you.

Whoops. Sorry about that. Looking back, I must have meant Brad.

No harm no foul.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 06:39:55 PM
Within minutes of simply being in the Ring's presence, Smeagol turned from an ordinary (presumably non-murderous) hobbit into someone who murdered his cousin Deagol just to get it. So I don't agree that he had ludicrous resistance to its power. That he didn't draw Sauron's attention may have more to do with the state Sauron was in at the time, or might have been due to his weakness, but he was thoroughly corrupted immediately.

Isildur held the Ring for two years, with no mention of his becoming evil or Sauron's pawn. (The movies invented a scene where Elrond brought him to Mount Doom and told him to destroy it, but as far as I can tell, that isn't how it happened in Tolkien.)
During the two years, Isildur didn't either bring it to Sauron willingly or use it for his own evil ends.

So it seems to me that the Ring had more power over Smeagol than over Isildur.

Hence, I don't think it is inherently a hobbit thing. One could extrapolate that, but it's reasoning from only four cases.

Smeagol was an absolute dick, and probably (most likely) psychopathic before he ever saw the Ring. He got turned pretty much instantly because the Ring gave him exactly what he already wanted in spades. Further, he wanted to BE Sauron; he wasn't Sauron's willing slave or anything of the sort. So even though the Ring corrupted his mind, it never really "controlled him" beyond making him more like himself. Contrast with Isildur, who was in direct succession of the half-elven and Dunedain, literally a man of ridiculous levels of mental fortitude. The Ring, and Sauron by extension, could never truly corrupt him in the absolute sense, hence why it left him when it had the opportunity. So, this really isn't a fair comparison, even though I get what you're saying.

Yes, the Ring affected those two very differently, BUT IN GENERAL, it does looks like hobbits as a whole were much more resistant to malevolent magic than any other group of people, as a whole. Pippin picking up the palantir, for instance, then looking into it later...anyone else doing that would essentially be driven insane, but he survived due to his innate innocence and completely lack of evil intent. The same cannot be said for even someone like Boromir who finally had a mental breakdown over the Ring.

THAT STATED, having a hobbit ringbearer might not be necessary for a game, but in the actual fiction I think it is the only thing that'd make sense.

QuoteThen she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

"I pass the test", she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."

I don't think Galadriel would trust herself to handle the Ring, but I do think she would resist it for a time. Long enough to form a new Fellowship. The Ring worked slowly, taking root right away, but taking time to fully corrupt someone. And Galadirel by the time of LOTR had Seen Some Shit. She was aware of how the desire of power to do Good can easily be twisted.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 01:34:29 PM

• Rare for Tolkien but important for a convention game, there should be a number of women characters.

I'd only allow straight white males. ;)

iirc, according to the lore, a dwarf could be a decent ring bearer - the race created naturally resistant to evil and magic shenanigans from the start, you know.
faramir also comes to mind as a possible PC - you'd kinda fill both boromir and aragorn places with him alone, without it actually feeling like a placeholder (?)

While we're discussing a authentic Tolkien experience, and quibbling over lore, here's a thought: way too many women.

Tolkien's world is, essentially, one that works along medieval Earth standards when it comes to gender roles. At least with Humans, Dwarves and Hobbits, almost to a fault the warriors and explorers are male.

Now I understand this is for a convention game, and some women will only want to play women so there needs to be a couple of options, but stacking female options just lacks verisimilitude. If you're going all 5e with interchangeable genders, why not just have magic shops, and people tossing fireballs too?

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 20, 2023, 04:28:04 AM
While we're discussing a authentic Tolkien experience, and quibbling over lore, here's a thought: way too many women.

Tolkien's world is, essentially, one that works along medieval Earth standards when it comes to gender roles. At least with Humans, Dwarves and Hobbits, almost to a fault the warriors and explorers are male.

Now I understand this is for a convention game, and some women will only want to play women so there needs to be a couple of options, but stacking female options just lacks verisimilitude. If you're going all 5e with interchangeable genders, why not just have magic shops, and people tossing fireballs too?

The easiest solution is to not make any of the characters anything.  Don't call it out specifically on the sheet and let the player that gets the character decide for themselves.  If all the PCs end up men, so be it.  If they are all women, at least it wasn't a forced decision by the GM.  Chances are you'll probably get a natural split leaning toward more men than women.

Why not use the twin sons of Elrond as PCs?  They are referenced in the books, but you learn pretty much nothing about them.  But they apparently regularly served as emissaries and wandering adventurers so they'd totally fit.  And they knew Galadriel so that fits in with the story lore.

Shelving the Ring is not an option. As Gandalf put it to Denethor, even if the One Ring was buried beneath Mount Mindolluin (the mountain that Minas Tirith butted up against), it would still burn his mind away.

While Eowyn is a deeply sympathetic character, she is an amazingly poor pick for Ringbearer. Remember that she suffered deep conflicts because she watched Theoden crumbling slowly, and feeling trapped by her position and station. These are all flaws the Ring could and would exploit.

I do like the idea of one of Ghan-Buri-Ghan's people, the Pukel-Men, that Theoden parlayed with added to the Fellowship. They were unlovely and crude but they knew what was right and wrong. 'Drive dark away with bright iron!'

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 20, 2023, 04:28:04 AM
While we're discussing a authentic Tolkien experience, and quibbling over lore, here's a thought: way too many women.

Tolkien's world is, essentially, one that works along medieval Earth standards when it comes to gender roles. At least with Humans, Dwarves and Hobbits, almost to a fault the warriors and explorers are male.

Now I understand this is for a convention game, and some women will only want to play women so there needs to be a couple of options, but stacking female options just lacks verisimilitude. If you're going all 5e with interchangeable genders, why not just have magic shops, and people tossing fireballs too?

I agree that female main characters are rare for Tolkien (as I say in my original post), but I want to leave that up to the players. The players can have an all-male party if they want, but they could also have female characters. As I mentioned, I want to make 10 or more PCs for 5 players, so they will have choices.

While all-male PCs would be the norm, I think Galadriel being in charge of the new Fellowship could be an excuse to allow women. Even among elves who have equality between sexes, men were still the soldiers - but Galadriel was an exception. Tolkien wrote in his letters of Galadriel "...She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats." In the Kinslaying At Alqualonde "she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin", and she is mentioned to have fought in The Battle of Lammoth.

Admittedly, just because she is an Amazon herself doesn't inherently mean she will support sending out women, but it's enough that I'd support players choosing some women if they want.

---

As an aside, the thing with Tolkien is that he goes beyond being medieval to strangely lacking in women. Even in medieval sagas, women will show up as wives and mothers who take an active role in their families. The Laxdaela Saga has the widowed matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded as a central figure, for example.

In Tolkien, there are almost no mortal wives or mothers. Theoden and Denethor are both widowed never remarrying, and their eldest sons are unmarried at age 40. Bilbo is a lifelong bachelor, and Frodo a bachelor at 50 - along with the rest of the Fellowship. Aragorn a bachelor at 87 at least has the excuse of his love for Arwen, but still. In a medieval saga, they'd almost all have their wives gird them up at home before going out to battle. Galadriel and Elrond are the rare married characters, and they're thousands of years old. The Ents go to the furthest extreme where the women of their entire species simply disappear.

So I don't feel too bad about erring a little in the other direction if players want.

So the obvious thing to do so that people can play female characters, is to limit choices to just the thematically appropriate.

Wise-Woman/Healer
Thief
Druid-type/wise in nature but not a ranger.
Any combative characters must be Elven
No female Dwarves whatsoever

But who am I kidding? You can't put setting limitations on anyone in 2023. So quibble over setting minutiae, while ignoring a major aspect of the setting, because Tolkien having a realistically male dominated society is MORE reason to counter balance it with a game full of lots of stronk whamen, not less. It's a Middle Earth for the modern audience after all.

As a more general comment here:

• I like having characters that are rooted in Tolkien but still quite different from the archetypes seen in the original Fellowship.
• Being formed closer to Mordor with a little more time, there can be characters more chosen explicitly for their ability to sneak into Mordor. Mordor was controlled by Gondor for over half of the Third Age, until 1300 years before LotR. 1300 years is a long time, but less so for elves and dwarves.
• In the books, Frodo spend 2 months in Rivendell and 1 month in Lothlorien. There was urgency, but they still took some time. I am thinking the new Fellowship might go after 3 months - giving time to actually recruit people. Galadriel would send people to Erebor and Gondor to let them know what happened to their people, and there is time for them to send people back.

Specifically, I was thinking of some characters like:

• An extraordinary Easterling deserter who has been captured. This would be a more morally grey character, but could work as a guide since the PCs won't have Gollum.
• An elven smith and armorer, who has actually been to the Cracks of Doom in the early Third Age, to study the forges there. Elven smithing is constantly referenced in Tolkien but not featured in LotR, so I think it's a good way to be distinct from Legolas while still being rooted in Tolkien.
• A dwarf scholar who has studied Mordor through papers from earlier in the Third Age. Dwarf generations are quite long, so he could be of a line of scholars who recorded such.
• A long-lost ent wife could have knowledge of Mordor. The ent-wives were said to have moved east, crossing the Anduin and living in what became the Brown Lands. They might have been destroyed by Sauron's takeover, but it was left unclear. Some might have survived hidden - and clearly have a score to settle with Sauron.

Between these, they could conceivably find an option to get into Mordor by a path other than Cirith Ungol (with Shelob).

As someone who is not a big LotR fan but who's read the books (decades ago), seen the movies (live action and animated), and even played a few LotR games (board games, computer games, and an RPG), I must admit that half of the discussion here is over my head.

Consider that your audience is convention goers, which is a very wide range of people.

Also consider that the timeslot is limited.

And finally consider that Tolkien carved some pretty deep ruts in the road that could easily capture the wagon wheels of the second fellowship.

Again, speaking as a mere casual fan of Tolkien, I would be looking at the race of the character and whether there were any clues as to how to role play the character well. The flavor of elf or exactly which mineshaft the dwarf crawled out of would be far, far down the list.

Which is to say, of all the character ideas here I like the ones that are lesser known or even unknown from Tolkien's writings because they have low demand on me lore-wise and would allow for more freedom.

Honestly, my opinion is that it's an RPG, and you don't have to hew so closely to Tolkien for an RPG. As long as the general feel of Tolkien is there, I'd be fine with it.
The idea of an alternate Fellowship appeals to me as a gamer. Like putting together a different group to play through the Dragonlance modules.
The one, major thing I'd be wary of, or maybe lean into if I'd be feeling funny, is all the players who bring the baggage of "This is a plothole!" solutions to the Ring.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 20, 2023, 04:15:23 PM
The one, major thing I'd be wary of, or maybe lean into if I'd be feeling funny, is all the players who bring the baggage of "This is a plothole!" solutions to the Ring.

Yep, or that one guy who knows all the lore and keeps harping on about how you're playing your Noldor elf too much like a Teleri.

Just don't lean into the warrior Guyladriel thing like they did in that abomination of a series...

Quote from: Persimmon on April 20, 2023, 05:44:16 PM
Just don't lean into the warrior Guyladriel thing like they did in that abomination of a series...

Lol!  Indeed.

For the ones I did, I focused on what they bring to the party and why they're volunteering for the party.

Rings Of Power Galadriel would wear the ring without problems, because she doesn't have toxic masculinity to corrupt her. Then she'd cut her way to Mordor with her posse (she doesn't need them to fight, just to validate and applaud), and lecture Sauron on his Maia privilege, before deposing him and opening a Starbucks in his tower.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 20, 2023, 02:28:23 PM
As someone who is not a big LotR fan but who's read the books (decades ago), seen the movies (live action and animated), and even played a few LotR games (board games, computer games, and an RPG), I must admit that half of the discussion here is over my head.

Consider that your audience is convention goers, which is a very wide range of people.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 20, 2023, 02:28:23 PM
Which is to say, of all the character ideas here I like the ones that are lesser known or even unknown from Tolkien's writings because they have low demand on me lore-wise and would allow for more freedom.

Fair - but bear in mind that design discussions aren't the same as actual play. I do want the characters to all make sense to Tolkien fans, but I also want them to be playable by non-Tolkien-fans. Tolkien fans could have a detailed discussion about the lore around a given character, but in play, there could be just one or two points of background that the player needs to know.

The trickiest would be the two suggested characters from the book, Pippin and Eowyn, but I don't think those two are too much. It should be fine if a small fraction of the characters are better suited for fans.

For example, a long-lost ent-wife is a Tolkien reference, but virtually nothing is said about them in the lore - so it's completely open. The character type is basically a druid of what is now Mordor, who now has a grudge against Sauron for destroying the plants and ecosystems of her region.

For something slightly different: Silmarillion had (for a little while) a team of a human man, an elf (half Maia) woman, and an intelligent powerful hound.

M.E.R.P. had 15 different tribes of Humans, surely there's something worth using from them?

Thanks for all the ideas. Here's what I have in my notes so far. For each of them, I have an "archetype/personality" about what makes them interesting to play. The "Tolkien hook" is what makes them thematically appropriate for Tolkien. The "distinction" is how they are different from the Lord of the Rings archetypes especially, so the game isn't a repeat of that. The "Mordor hook" is especially why they'd be chosen to sneak into Mordor.

BIG HEROES

Elven smith/armorer and melee fighter

• Archetype/personality: high-minded professional and perfectionist
• Tolkien hook: elvish swords and armor feature prominently, but don't have a face in LotR.
• Distinction: focus on sword & armor makes him different from Legolas.
• Mordor hook: born in early Third Age (i.e. age 2000 - 3000), and visited Mount Doom itself back when it was still controlled by Gondor.

Knight of the Silver Swan

• Archetype/personality: suave sea-going knight and prince (?)
• Tolkien hook: The knights of Dol Amroth from southern Gondor helped defend Minas Tirith in LotR. In this alternate timeline, after hearing of the death of his son Boromir, Denethor might be unwilling to send his own kin - but one of the knights might go instead.
• Distinction: making him a suave sailor as well as a knight may help distinguish him from princes like Aragorn and Boromir
• Mordor hook: not much, though an excellent climber

Mystic wild man of the Drúedain

• Archetype/personality: enigmatic shaman and outdoorsman
• Tolkien hook: In LotR, Theoden parleys with chief Ghân-buri-Ghân of the Drúedain to lead him by a secret pass to avoid an orc army. A similar side route might have been taken by Gondorians headed to Lothlorien.
• Distinction: no parallel in LotR main characters
• Mordor hook: an expert in wilderness survival and stealth

Dwarf scout/mountaineer and archer

• Archetype/personality: helpful and gregarious team player from a big family
• Tolkien hook: The dwarves in the Hobbit used primarily swords and bows, and dwell in mountainous terrain. This harkens back to them more.
• Distinction: scout and archer makes him distinct from Gimli
• Mordor hook: expert in climbing and mountainous terrain

Easterling banished general

• Archetype/personality: proud and honorable adversary
• Tolkien hook: Followup on the Hobbit by connecting iSauron's assault on Dale. These Easterlings are successors to the Balchoth who fought Gondor in TA 2510, and are currently preparing to attack Lake-Town and Erebor, allied with orcs of the Misty Mountains.
• Distinction: inside man with the enemy, but opposite of Gollum
• Mordor hook: Knows of Mordor's plans, and possibly routes to and from Mordor from the north and east.

Granddaughter of Beorn

• Archetype/personality: woodsy skin-changer / friend to animals
• Tolkien hook: obviously to Beorn
• Distinction: as a woman, she is different than Beorn, and should represent a female sort of Nordic herding/husbandry
• Mordor hook: as a skin-changer can hide and sneak well

LITTLE HEROES

Pippin

• Archetype/personality: cheerful, good-natured bumbler
• Tolkien hook: direct character
• Distinction: the death of his cousin Merry and break-up of the first Fellowship will have made him more thoughtful
• Mordor hook: unclear, except was part of first Fellowship

Eowyn

• Archetype/personality: fierce, bold, and soulful shield maiden
• Tolkien hook: direct character
• Distinction: here she will not be pretending to be a man, but may be accepted by the elves of Lothlorien as a warrior, though not a great one
• Mordor hook: unclear

Dwarf scholar and map-maker

• Archetype/personality: bookish and thoughtful scholar with a perfect memory
• Tolkien hook: His dwarves were very learned with an ancient script, and secret writing like moon letters - with Khuzdul deliberately based on Hebrew.
• Distinction: A pure-of-heart scholar is different from the rustic farming hobbits, but could still be an innocent and a potential ring-bearer.
• Mordor hook: Studied dwarvish maps and documents from 1300 years ago when Mordor was under Gondorian control, so knows Mordor geography - on paper, at least.

Elven healer and weaver

• Archetype/personality: simple and caring nurse
• Tolkien hook: Elves were known for their healing arts, particularly Elrond. She could also be a weaver, which would connect to the semi-magic elven cloaks.
• Distinction: An elvish woman who specializes in healing is an unlikely adventurer, while different from hobbits as unlikely adventurers.
• Mordor hook: unclear, except could have formed a bond with Frodo in healing him

Long-lost ent-wife

• Archetype/personality: obsessive carer for plants near Mordor
• Tolkien hook: The ent-wives were said to have moved east into what became the Brown Lands north of Mordor. They might have been destroyed by Sauron's takeover, but it was left unclear. Some might have survived hidden - and clearly have a score to settle with Sauron.
• Distinction: A unique offshoot of the ents, who cared for smaller plants and would have been smaller and perhaps more mobile.
• Mordor hook: Extremely long-lived and might know passages into Mordor from the north. Would probably also be excellent at hiding as long as there were shrubs or other growth about.

Nice. Those are some really solid characters.

Definitely let us know how the game(s) go.

In theory, I like the idea of Eowyn as a possible member of the new Fellowship. However, I'm a little stuck on how to get her to Lothlorien. She is very devoted to her uncle Theoden, so why would she head off?

Part of this is Tolkien plot geeky - but it bears on why her character would join the Fellowship at all.

Begin Tolkien plot geekery

In general, my device for bringing in new characters is that after Frodo says he cannot go on, the first Fellowship breaks and:

• Legolas goes north towards his home in Mirkwood and promises to go to Gimli's kin and send a party to bring him home.
• Aragorn goes south to Gondor to tell King Denethor of his son Boromir's death, and lend his aid there.

That could bring people back along either route, but it doesn't change what is in Rohan.

My one thought is that Merry being struck might have distracted Gandalf in fighting the Balrog. By some spirit-wound or twist, that means he is out of action for longer. So he doesn't return as Gandalf the White until weeks or months later. (I need this anyway because I don't want Gandalf around.) Without Gandalf's intervention, Theoden gets worse and does something terrible that drives Eowyn away.

But then how does she get to Lothlorien? I'd prefer something not too convoluted, but I feel a little mired in details. I take staying true to Tolkien seriously, but maybe I'm going too far.

End Tolkien plot geekery

In general, I picture Eowyn would consider the Ring none of her business, and would want to focus on caring for her family.

--------

Getting back to Grognard GM:

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 20, 2023, 12:30:38 PM
So the obvious thing to do so that people can play female characters, is to limit choices to just the thematically appropriate.

Wise-Woman/Healer
Thief
Druid-type/wise in nature but not a ranger.
Any combative characters must be Elven
No female Dwarves whatsoever

But who am I kidding? You can't put setting limitations on anyone in 2023.

Actually, that seems pretty close to the characters I am thinking.

• Wise-Woman/Healer is my elven healer.
• Druid-type/wise in nature mentioned earlier could be a grand-daughter of Beorn or the long-lost ent-wife.
• Combative women elven-only - I don't have an elf woman fighter. I have Eowyn who is a human combatant - but since she is in the book, that's not thematically inappropriate for Tolkien. She's not a super-fighter like Aragorn or Boromir, but she can fight.
• I don't have a female dwarf.

How about a slightly different approach. Not an alternate history but a sideshow.

Galadriel puts together a fellowship to draw the Mordor away from the actual fellowship. So you've got folks on a near certainly suicidal mission across the woodlands towards the Black Gate hoping to bring the Nazgul and Orcs ontop of them to give Frodo a chance. Let them die in a big bloody battle at the Black Gate (perhaps surviving only because Pippin looks into the Palantir... although how they would know that or not I don't know)

Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2023, 08:03:55 PM
How about a slightly different approach. Not an alternate history but a sideshow.

Galadriel puts together a fellowship to draw the Mordor away from the actual fellowship. So you've got folks on a near certainly suicidal mission across the woodlands towards the Black Gate hoping to bring the Nazgul and Orcs ontop of them to give Frodo a chance. Let them die in a big bloody battle at the Black Gate (perhaps surviving only because Pippin looks into the Palantir... although how they would know that or not I don't know)

I like that as an alternative. It could be exactly the same adventure either way - trying to sneak into Mordor. While they want to be a distraction - they also don't want to be caught too soon. So they'd keep trying to sneak through and act as if they're trying for Mount Doom the whole time.

I'd just have to tweak how the PCs get assembled.

I could even offer both options to the players and let them decide.

So I'm planning to run this as a one-shot at the end of the month. I have write-ups for all the races done, and am close to complete with the pregenerated characters. One of my design goals was to have a playable mix of big and small characters. I am feeling unsure about the whole thing, since I don't have much Savage Worlds experience, but I'm hopeful it will work.

With the pregens, I'm working on balance. For example, I've rated Pippin as a handy character mostly because he is a Taunt master, which I think fits well with his portrayal but also works in Savage Worlds message. He can't fight, but he is handy in a fight by taunting the enemy. I've tried to make other small PCs so they can fill a niche even if they clearly aren't as tough in a regular fight as the big PCs.

Here's my rules with what I'm doing for the races:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fhk2oCR14Ou30K6YnKqFY_c-yvva-GuipcfH2OK1Fb4/edit

And here's my draft of the pregenerated characters:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y12Ytu3g3XpP6AoDrDS3sUWi6A0-GOMVC_EDfOQ_wi8/edit#heading=h.8ypmshjjytv6

Looks like some cool concepts at a glance. I'm not super familiar with the mechanical implications, but meh. On the other hand, I'm kinda worried for this Fellowship's world. I feel the main Fellowship typically does better when Pippin isn't there or is less at the fore (though this timeline's Pippin may be better/more capable), and Eowyn being missing from Rohan is going to make things very interesting if that place is still doing its thing. Look forward to hearing how everything turns out. ;D

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2023, 05:14:54 PM
Looks like some cool concepts at a glance. I'm not super familiar with the mechanical implications, but meh. On the other hand, I'm kinda worried for this Fellowship's world. I feel the main Fellowship typically does better when Pippin isn't there or is less at the fore (though this timeline's Pippin may be better/more capable), and Eowyn being missing from Rohan is going to make things very interesting if that place is still doing its thing. Look forward to hearing how everything turns out. ;D

Hm. Pippin was responsible for the destruction of Isengard by moving the Ents to action. (Moreso in the movie than in the book, but even in the book, he had a vital part.)

He then was the biggest possible distraction to Saruman via the palantir. Purely by luck, Pippin made Sauron think that the hobbits were captured at Isengard by Saruman, so Sauron looked west for the hobbits and was completely ignorant of Frodo and Sam slipping into Mordor. That was purely by accident, but it was absolutely crucial to the plan.

He also saved Faramir's life.

It mixes up who is doing what, but the main figures are still active - they're just doing different things.

---

I'll start a separate thread on the Savage World mechanics.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2023, 06:28:51 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on September 21, 2023, 05:14:54 PM
Looks like some cool concepts at a glance. I'm not super familiar with the mechanical implications, but meh. On the other hand, I'm kinda worried for this Fellowship's world. I feel the main Fellowship typically does better when Pippin isn't there or is less at the fore (though this timeline's Pippin may be better/more capable), and Eowyn being missing from Rohan is going to make things very interesting if that place is still doing its thing. Look forward to hearing how everything turns out. ;D

Hm. Pippin was responsible for the destruction of Isengard by moving the Ents to action. (Moreso in the movie than in the book, but even in the book, he had a vital part.)

He then was the biggest possible distraction to Saruman via the palantir. Purely by luck, Pippin made Sauron think that the hobbits were captured at Isengard by Saruman, so Sauron looked west for the hobbits and was completely ignorant of Frodo and Sam slipping into Mordor. That was purely by accident, but it was absolutely crucial to the plan.

He also saved Faramir's life.

It mixes up who is doing what, but the main figures are still active - they're just doing different things.

---

I'll start a separate thread on the Savage World mechanics.

Fair points on Pippin. I guess I was more just thinking of when the fellowship was fully together rather than split up. When he's more just regarded as a bit of a fool of a Took, so to speak.But yeah, I guess I majorly downplayed some key stuff there. He also lit the signal fire, I think.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 02:17:34 PM
More broadly, I don't think being pure of heart and resistant to corruption is unique to hobbits in Tolkien. It is a property of spirit, not race. For example, the Sackville-Bagginses were portrayed as greedy for Bilbo's inheritance, and I think they'd be quickly corrupted if they got the Ring.

And of course, Gollum was originally a hobbit. In D&D terms, essentially most hobbits are Lawful Good; they have an ordered society (even if not heavily-structured) and help one another. Smeagol was Neutral Evil, indifferent to laws or individual freedoms, but only concerned with personal wants and needs.

As for the elves, in order to have a society function where its kings and queens live for a thousand years, they have to be Lawful - even at the expense of doing things which are, if not Evil, then are certainly not Good, for example (as in the book The Hobbit) capturing people passing through their lands and imprisoning them, then showing up after the dragon's been slain and demanding a chunk of it. The elves, then, are Lawful Neutral.

Sauron is of course Chaotic Evil - he wants to destroy everything, not so he can build something in its place (not even an evil something) but simply for the sake of destruction.

Essentially the ring of invisibility is like an intelligent sword in D&D, with its own personality and desires - and alignment, obviously Chaotic Evil like Sauron. Worn long enough, it gradually shifts the alignment of the user. For Smeagol, this was no step at all, he was already Chaotic Evil. The problem for the ring is that he was also cowardly, and went and hid in caves underground.

A Lawful Good hobbit has to change from Lawful to Neutral to Chaotic, and from Good to Neutral to Evil - that's four alignment steps in all.

A Lawful Neutral elf has one fewer steps to take to Chaotic Evil.

Even if you don't use alignment systems in your game, or don't use D&D, the above can spark some thought about why this or that race or individual can be better to take care of the ring.

Another way to think of it is that one who is accustomed to being a nobody will be somewhat resistant to the ring's call to power; but one who is accustomed to power may say, "perhaps I can use it for my own purposes - er, I mean, for good?"

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 02:17:34 PM
More broadly, I don't think being pure of heart and resistant to corruption is unique to hobbits in Tolkien. It is a property of spirit, not race. For example, the Sackville-Bagginses were portrayed as greedy for Bilbo's inheritance, and I think they'd be quickly corrupted if they got the Ring.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on September 23, 2023, 05:09:36 AM
Even if you don't use alignment systems in your game, or don't use D&D, the above can spark some thought about why this or that race or individual can be better to take care of the ring.

Another way to think of it is that one who is accustomed to being a nobody will be somewhat resistant to the ring's call to power; but one who is accustomed to power may say, "perhaps I can use it for my own purposes - er, I mean, for good?"

This last bit seems much closer to what I'd say -- but I think that many people accustomed to being a nobody would be greedy to become something important. Again, I wouldn't say that Lobelia Sackville-Baggins was accustomed to power. Rather, she wanted to get a step up. I stand by saying that she'd be terrible as a ring-bearer.

Nearly everyone in power had ambition to get there or stay there. But there are also plenty who don't have power who want to get it.

Most of the Shire went along with Sharkey and his gang after they took over. If Frodo and the others hadn't come back, that might well have become the normal way of life there.

OK, so after-action report from running it this past Friday.

General Thoughts

• I only had three players out of five originally signed up. All three were more the classical Tolkien fan - older guys.
• The players chose three that were closest to the canonical story: Pippin, Amrothos (Knight of the Silver Swan) and Dusan-ghan-Buri.
• Many of the 12 possible PCs had knowledge of Mordor that suggest different ways in, but none of them were in this game.
• I wanted to give players a lot of choices, so I had included more classical options - and encounters along different ways into Mordor, but in retrospect, the result was much more parallel to the story than I had pictured.

System

• I thought Savage Worlds worked great.
• I had some issues with the cheat-sheet that I had downloaded, which turned out to be harder to use than I expected. I'll look at rolling one myself.
• There were three opportunities to use the Chase rules, but I didn't feel confident enough while juggling everything else to use them.

Highlights

• They slipped past orc and Uruk-Hai patrols, and captured Smeagol/Gollum. With an expert woodsman (Dusan) and a Gondorian knight (Amrothos), they had few problems with sneaking or with Faramir's people. Smeagol guided them to Cirith Ungol.
• After climbing to the top of the stairs of Cirith Ungol, I had Pippin make a Spirit roll when he saw a Ringwraith flying up from the city below. Despite a high Spirit, he rolled a fumble with double 1s (a 1 in 60 chance). So he put on the Ring, and the others grabbed him and dragged him into the caves while the Ringwraith gave chase.
• They rolled well after and got away from Shelob - but with Mordor now alerted, they now had to navigate the plains with sweeping armies. On the plus side, they were well-supplied and skilled.
• They observed how, like in the tower, the armies were huge but poorly disciplined. It was risky, but they made their way across in disguise, and did well. They eventually joined the army forming a guard around Mount Doom.
• With some subterfuge, they tricked a work-crew troll who was closing up one of the lava tubes in the mountain. However, shortly after the work-crew leader gave chase. Dusan the wild man was slow, and chose to try to distract the chasing trolls.
• They had to approach the blistering heat of the lava on their level, instead of throwing it down from above. Pippin stopped, coughing at the heat. Amrothos told him to throw the Ring, but he wouldn't.
• Amrothos grabbed the Ring from him, with a very good Spirit roll, but not enough to just casually toss it. His hand wouldn't release the chain, so he stumbled toward the lava to burn his hand with it.
• Gollum and Pippin both tackled him, and he was horribly burned but the Ring went on the lava. Gollum tried to leap after it, but Pippin saved Gollum, pulling him back.
• Dusan rolled poorly, and was slain by trolls, but as a mystic, I allowed that his ghost could give guidance to them as they tried to escape. They got to some higher ground, and were rescued by eagles - including Smeagol with them.

Hindsight

• It came out nicely dramatic with die rolls kept as intended, but it overall paralleled the original story too closely for what I had hoped.
• The characters worked well, but I will put in some changes - including making Amrothos more of a unique individual.

QuoteSauron is of course Chaotic Evil - he wants to destroy everything, not so he can build something in its place (not even an evil something) but simply for the sake of destruction.

Like, oof. Big no.
What you described is Melkor/Morgoth - Sauron boss. He wanted to usurp God, and when realised it's impossible - he started to desire obliteration of God creation out of spite.

Sauron while following partially in his steps is very different beast. He is extremely Lawful Evil being, joining Melkor first because he thought Valars needs strong ruler instead of squabbling, and later desire to control Chaos was still important part of his character. While Melkor dispersed his power basically within whole world to taint it, Sauron concentrated his power in extremely powerful artifact, that also enhanced his powers of control.

He definitely wanted to rule and organise Middle-Earth. And Gandalf basically prophecised that anyone who would by luck or will grasp Ring from Sauron (extremelly hard task) - would fall to the same trap, influenced by Ring trying to impose own order on all.

QuoteAnd of course, Gollum was originally a hobbit. In D&D terms, essentially most hobbits are Lawful Good; they have an ordered society (even if not heavily-structured) and help one another. Smeagol was Neutral Evil, indifferent to laws or individual freedoms, but only concerned with personal wants and needs.

I'd say Neutral Good. Hobbits do not care about complex civilisation, abhore buerocracy and their laws are very guarding individual hobbit freedoms.

Quote from: jhkim on April 21, 2023, 08:55:21 PM
In theory, I like the idea of Eowyn as a possible member of the new Fellowship. However, I'm a little stuck on how to get her to Lothlorien. She is very devoted to her uncle Theoden, so why would she head off?

Depending on the timing, if Gandalf doesn't get out of Moria, or gets out late, then Wormtongue may be make making his advances on her and or destroying/killing Theoden, and she may motivated to take extreme measures. 

(I'm no middle earth Scholar).  And... what if Eowyn takes Shadowfax?

And perhaps the King of Rohan (although senseless) has received a message from Galadriel for aid, regarding the Ring of Power (either directly or indirectly).  Wormtongue would have destroyed the letter, but Eowyn got the message first.  And she, seeking a remedy to the king's mysterious malady, and knowing the elves have great healers among them, answers, and heads to Lothlorien.