As a more general comment here:

• I like having characters that are rooted in Tolkien but still quite different from the archetypes seen in the original Fellowship.
• Being formed closer to Mordor with a little more time, there can be characters more chosen explicitly for their ability to sneak into Mordor. Mordor was controlled by Gondor for over half of the Third Age, until 1300 years before LotR. 1300 years is a long time, but less so for elves and dwarves.
• In the books, Frodo spend 2 months in Rivendell and 1 month in Lothlorien. There was urgency, but they still took some time. I am thinking the new Fellowship might go after 3 months - giving time to actually recruit people. Galadriel would send people to Erebor and Gondor to let them know what happened to their people, and there is time for them to send people back.

Specifically, I was thinking of some characters like:

• An extraordinary Easterling deserter who has been captured. This would be a more morally grey character, but could work as a guide since the PCs won't have Gollum.
• An elven smith and armorer, who has actually been to the Cracks of Doom in the early Third Age, to study the forges there. Elven smithing is constantly referenced in Tolkien but not featured in LotR, so I think it's a good way to be distinct from Legolas while still being rooted in Tolkien.
• A dwarf scholar who has studied Mordor through papers from earlier in the Third Age. Dwarf generations are quite long, so he could be of a line of scholars who recorded such.
• A long-lost ent wife could have knowledge of Mordor. The ent-wives were said to have moved east, crossing the Anduin and living in what became the Brown Lands. They might have been destroyed by Sauron's takeover, but it was left unclear. Some might have survived hidden - and clearly have a score to settle with Sauron.

Between these, they could conceivably find an option to get into Mordor by a path other than Cirith Ungol (with Shelob).

As someone who is not a big LotR fan but who's read the books (decades ago), seen the movies (live action and animated), and even played a few LotR games (board games, computer games, and an RPG), I must admit that half of the discussion here is over my head.

Consider that your audience is convention goers, which is a very wide range of people.

Also consider that the timeslot is limited.

And finally consider that Tolkien carved some pretty deep ruts in the road that could easily capture the wagon wheels of the second fellowship.

Again, speaking as a mere casual fan of Tolkien, I would be looking at the race of the character and whether there were any clues as to how to role play the character well. The flavor of elf or exactly which mineshaft the dwarf crawled out of would be far, far down the list.

Which is to say, of all the character ideas here I like the ones that are lesser known or even unknown from Tolkien's writings because they have low demand on me lore-wise and would allow for more freedom.

Honestly, my opinion is that it's an RPG, and you don't have to hew so closely to Tolkien for an RPG. As long as the general feel of Tolkien is there, I'd be fine with it.
The idea of an alternate Fellowship appeals to me as a gamer. Like putting together a different group to play through the Dragonlance modules.
The one, major thing I'd be wary of, or maybe lean into if I'd be feeling funny, is all the players who bring the baggage of "This is a plothole!" solutions to the Ring.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 20, 2023, 04:15:23 PM
The one, major thing I'd be wary of, or maybe lean into if I'd be feeling funny, is all the players who bring the baggage of "This is a plothole!" solutions to the Ring.

Yep, or that one guy who knows all the lore and keeps harping on about how you're playing your Noldor elf too much like a Teleri.

Just don't lean into the warrior Guyladriel thing like they did in that abomination of a series...

Quote from: Persimmon on April 20, 2023, 05:44:16 PM
Just don't lean into the warrior Guyladriel thing like they did in that abomination of a series...

Lol!  Indeed.

For the ones I did, I focused on what they bring to the party and why they're volunteering for the party.

Rings Of Power Galadriel would wear the ring without problems, because she doesn't have toxic masculinity to corrupt her. Then she'd cut her way to Mordor with her posse (she doesn't need them to fight, just to validate and applaud), and lecture Sauron on his Maia privilege, before deposing him and opening a Starbucks in his tower.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 20, 2023, 02:28:23 PM
As someone who is not a big LotR fan but who's read the books (decades ago), seen the movies (live action and animated), and even played a few LotR games (board games, computer games, and an RPG), I must admit that half of the discussion here is over my head.

Consider that your audience is convention goers, which is a very wide range of people.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 20, 2023, 02:28:23 PM
Which is to say, of all the character ideas here I like the ones that are lesser known or even unknown from Tolkien's writings because they have low demand on me lore-wise and would allow for more freedom.

Fair - but bear in mind that design discussions aren't the same as actual play. I do want the characters to all make sense to Tolkien fans, but I also want them to be playable by non-Tolkien-fans. Tolkien fans could have a detailed discussion about the lore around a given character, but in play, there could be just one or two points of background that the player needs to know.

The trickiest would be the two suggested characters from the book, Pippin and Eowyn, but I don't think those two are too much. It should be fine if a small fraction of the characters are better suited for fans.

For example, a long-lost ent-wife is a Tolkien reference, but virtually nothing is said about them in the lore - so it's completely open. The character type is basically a druid of what is now Mordor, who now has a grudge against Sauron for destroying the plants and ecosystems of her region.

For something slightly different: Silmarillion had (for a little while) a team of a human man, an elf (half Maia) woman, and an intelligent powerful hound.

M.E.R.P. had 15 different tribes of Humans, surely there's something worth using from them?

Thanks for all the ideas. Here's what I have in my notes so far. For each of them, I have an "archetype/personality" about what makes them interesting to play. The "Tolkien hook" is what makes them thematically appropriate for Tolkien. The "distinction" is how they are different from the Lord of the Rings archetypes especially, so the game isn't a repeat of that. The "Mordor hook" is especially why they'd be chosen to sneak into Mordor.

BIG HEROES

Elven smith/armorer and melee fighter

• Archetype/personality: high-minded professional and perfectionist
• Tolkien hook: elvish swords and armor feature prominently, but don't have a face in LotR.
• Distinction: focus on sword & armor makes him different from Legolas.
• Mordor hook: born in early Third Age (i.e. age 2000 - 3000), and visited Mount Doom itself back when it was still controlled by Gondor.

Knight of the Silver Swan

• Archetype/personality: suave sea-going knight and prince (?)
• Tolkien hook: The knights of Dol Amroth from southern Gondor helped defend Minas Tirith in LotR. In this alternate timeline, after hearing of the death of his son Boromir, Denethor might be unwilling to send his own kin - but one of the knights might go instead.
• Distinction: making him a suave sailor as well as a knight may help distinguish him from princes like Aragorn and Boromir
• Mordor hook: not much, though an excellent climber

Mystic wild man of the Drúedain

• Archetype/personality: enigmatic shaman and outdoorsman
• Tolkien hook: In LotR, Theoden parleys with chief Ghân-buri-Ghân of the Drúedain to lead him by a secret pass to avoid an orc army. A similar side route might have been taken by Gondorians headed to Lothlorien.
• Distinction: no parallel in LotR main characters
• Mordor hook: an expert in wilderness survival and stealth

Dwarf scout/mountaineer and archer

• Archetype/personality: helpful and gregarious team player from a big family
• Tolkien hook: The dwarves in the Hobbit used primarily swords and bows, and dwell in mountainous terrain. This harkens back to them more.
• Distinction: scout and archer makes him distinct from Gimli
• Mordor hook: expert in climbing and mountainous terrain

Easterling banished general

• Archetype/personality: proud and honorable adversary
• Tolkien hook: Followup on the Hobbit by connecting iSauron's assault on Dale. These Easterlings are successors to the Balchoth who fought Gondor in TA 2510, and are currently preparing to attack Lake-Town and Erebor, allied with orcs of the Misty Mountains.
• Distinction: inside man with the enemy, but opposite of Gollum
• Mordor hook: Knows of Mordor's plans, and possibly routes to and from Mordor from the north and east.

Granddaughter of Beorn

• Archetype/personality: woodsy skin-changer / friend to animals
• Tolkien hook: obviously to Beorn
• Distinction: as a woman, she is different than Beorn, and should represent a female sort of Nordic herding/husbandry
• Mordor hook: as a skin-changer can hide and sneak well

LITTLE HEROES

Pippin

• Archetype/personality: cheerful, good-natured bumbler
• Tolkien hook: direct character
• Distinction: the death of his cousin Merry and break-up of the first Fellowship will have made him more thoughtful
• Mordor hook: unclear, except was part of first Fellowship

Eowyn

• Archetype/personality: fierce, bold, and soulful shield maiden
• Tolkien hook: direct character
• Distinction: here she will not be pretending to be a man, but may be accepted by the elves of Lothlorien as a warrior, though not a great one
• Mordor hook: unclear

Dwarf scholar and map-maker

• Archetype/personality: bookish and thoughtful scholar with a perfect memory
• Tolkien hook: His dwarves were very learned with an ancient script, and secret writing like moon letters - with Khuzdul deliberately based on Hebrew.
• Distinction: A pure-of-heart scholar is different from the rustic farming hobbits, but could still be an innocent and a potential ring-bearer.
• Mordor hook: Studied dwarvish maps and documents from 1300 years ago when Mordor was under Gondorian control, so knows Mordor geography - on paper, at least.

Elven healer and weaver

• Archetype/personality: simple and caring nurse
• Tolkien hook: Elves were known for their healing arts, particularly Elrond. She could also be a weaver, which would connect to the semi-magic elven cloaks.
• Distinction: An elvish woman who specializes in healing is an unlikely adventurer, while different from hobbits as unlikely adventurers.
• Mordor hook: unclear, except could have formed a bond with Frodo in healing him

Long-lost ent-wife

• Archetype/personality: obsessive carer for plants near Mordor
• Tolkien hook: The ent-wives were said to have moved east into what became the Brown Lands north of Mordor. They might have been destroyed by Sauron's takeover, but it was left unclear. Some might have survived hidden - and clearly have a score to settle with Sauron.
• Distinction: A unique offshoot of the ents, who cared for smaller plants and would have been smaller and perhaps more mobile.
• Mordor hook: Extremely long-lived and might know passages into Mordor from the north. Would probably also be excellent at hiding as long as there were shrubs or other growth about.

Nice. Those are some really solid characters.

Definitely let us know how the game(s) go.

In theory, I like the idea of Eowyn as a possible member of the new Fellowship. However, I'm a little stuck on how to get her to Lothlorien. She is very devoted to her uncle Theoden, so why would she head off?

Part of this is Tolkien plot geeky - but it bears on why her character would join the Fellowship at all.

Begin Tolkien plot geekery

In general, my device for bringing in new characters is that after Frodo says he cannot go on, the first Fellowship breaks and:

• Legolas goes north towards his home in Mirkwood and promises to go to Gimli's kin and send a party to bring him home.
• Aragorn goes south to Gondor to tell King Denethor of his son Boromir's death, and lend his aid there.

That could bring people back along either route, but it doesn't change what is in Rohan.

My one thought is that Merry being struck might have distracted Gandalf in fighting the Balrog. By some spirit-wound or twist, that means he is out of action for longer. So he doesn't return as Gandalf the White until weeks or months later. (I need this anyway because I don't want Gandalf around.) Without Gandalf's intervention, Theoden gets worse and does something terrible that drives Eowyn away.

But then how does she get to Lothlorien? I'd prefer something not too convoluted, but I feel a little mired in details. I take staying true to Tolkien seriously, but maybe I'm going too far.

End Tolkien plot geekery

In general, I picture Eowyn would consider the Ring none of her business, and would want to focus on caring for her family.

--------

Getting back to Grognard GM:

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 20, 2023, 12:30:38 PM
So the obvious thing to do so that people can play female characters, is to limit choices to just the thematically appropriate.

Wise-Woman/Healer
Thief
Druid-type/wise in nature but not a ranger.
Any combative characters must be Elven
No female Dwarves whatsoever

But who am I kidding? You can't put setting limitations on anyone in 2023.

Actually, that seems pretty close to the characters I am thinking.

• Wise-Woman/Healer is my elven healer.
• Druid-type/wise in nature mentioned earlier could be a grand-daughter of Beorn or the long-lost ent-wife.
• Combative women elven-only - I don't have an elf woman fighter. I have Eowyn who is a human combatant - but since she is in the book, that's not thematically inappropriate for Tolkien. She's not a super-fighter like Aragorn or Boromir, but she can fight.
• I don't have a female dwarf.

How about a slightly different approach. Not an alternate history but a sideshow.

Galadriel puts together a fellowship to draw the Mordor away from the actual fellowship. So you've got folks on a near certainly suicidal mission across the woodlands towards the Black Gate hoping to bring the Nazgul and Orcs ontop of them to give Frodo a chance. Let them die in a big bloody battle at the Black Gate (perhaps surviving only because Pippin looks into the Palantir... although how they would know that or not I don't know)