To Grognard GM and Geekybugle -- as I said, Galadriel temporarily keeping the Ring is a device that isn't necessary. On reflection, I can just have Frodo pass it to the next bearer. However, as for who could be a bearer and what the Ring's power is, that's rather central to this scenario.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 04:46:41 PM
Also, there HAS to be a Hobbit as ring-bearer. Protestations of character over bio-essentialism aside, bullshit. Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo all have ludicrous resistance to the power of the ring (sure Smeagol turns in to a twisted maniac, but think of how long he's able to hold it and evade discovery by Sauron.) There is 100% something about Hobbits, beyond personal morality and strength of will.

Within minutes of simply being in the Ring's presence, Smeagol turned from an ordinary (presumably non-murderous) hobbit into someone who murdered his cousin Deagol just to get it. So I don't agree that he had ludicrous resistance to its power. That he didn't draw Sauron's attention may have more to do with the state Sauron was in at the time, or might have been due to his weakness, but he was thoroughly corrupted immediately.

Isildur held the Ring for two years, with no mention of his becoming evil or Sauron's pawn. (The movies invented a scene where Elrond brought him to Mount Doom and told him to destroy it, but as far as I can tell, that isn't how it happened in Tolkien.)
During the two years, Isildur didn't either bring it to Sauron willingly or use it for his own evil ends.

So it seems to me that the Ring had more power over Smeagol than over Isildur.

Hence, I don't think it is inherently a hobbit thing. One could extrapolate that, but it's reasoning from only four cases.

I'd suggest that instead of Moria that your alternate timeline begin with Frodo's injury en route to Rivendell... the rescue comes too late and Frodo succumbs to his wound. Sam holds the Ring for now, but without Frodo's recovery to consider, the meeting at Rivendell comes before Gandalf escapes Saruman and with different representatives coming to the rushed meeting (i.e. the PCs) who form a different Fellowship (who without Gimli would never even think to go through Moria).

Even if Galadriel had the will to shelf the ring, she's wise enough to know that its influence would soon lead to tragedy and division in her kingdom.  So, she'd have to send it away.

It's Lothlorien so the fellowship will mostly be elves mainly scouts and probably a couple tough fighters as well but perhaps there's a few others of other kindreds who languish in the dungeons because they wouldn't stay away but weren't horrible enough to kill outright.

A hobbit of the sort of vagabond who'll dig a hole in any sandy hill and move in.  Rebbeca Smalltoes is a wanderer unable to abide the rigid societal conventions of Breeland, she wanders the world getting into trouble and eventually wound up trying to get into Lorien on a bar bet.

Tara and Bofud, a couple dwarves who were trying to get to Moria but lost their way.  These two are a married couple on the run because they've eloped and her father had other plans.  They're cute together but nobody can tell them apart.

Emily, an orphan peasant girl from south of Mirkwood, she fled an abusive step family as a child and the various active maia in the spirit world took a shine to her and watch over her.  She's not a witch or a wizard but stuff happens around her.

Dogwittle, an adventurous fisherman who's wandered up the river and into the woods.  He's middle aged, familyless, and swings between deep depression and wild excitement.  He sings, he hums, and he fishes.  The elves have never quite known what to do with him but he's harmless and amusing so they let him stay and he hasn't shown any sign of leaving at any rate.  He's half Puddleglum and half Tom Bombadil but he's wiser and deeper than he lets on.  He's also on a first name basis with Treebeard and took the time to learn it in old Entish at some point but he doesn't brag about it.

Lets do some elves, I'm not going to do them in Elvish if that's your thing, knock yourselves out.

Clear Skies once met the blue wizards and fell in love with one.  She's always wanted to follow their footsteps into the east but never got around to it.  "A thousand years ago? Really?  Has it been that long?"  She's a master of the woods and knows all the plants and their properties.  In MERP she'd be an Animist, but she's a fair shot with a bow and can blend into the background insanely well.

Swift Shadow is a master hunter and a crack shot with a long bow.  He's fast on his feet and perhaps a little too quick to act.  He secretly loathes humans.  He met Orome once, long, long ago and learned certain secrets about the behavior of animals.  He has a dog but it never measures up to his expectations and has yet to talk.

Far Seeker has wandered the world and even visted Mirkwood.  She has been busy creating a mosaic map out of pebbles for a few centuries but she's anxious to get out and refresh her memory on the details.  She's the guide who has some idea of the lay of the land.  She even went to Mordor once before the watch of Gondor faded.

Good Steel is a warrior and has been waiting for another decent war since the last alliance.  He actually fought on the side of the Dwarves during the Goblin wars but somehow got left out of the histories by both sides.  One thing they could agree on is that nobody invited him.  Good Steel makes a great show of not caring about the ring and just being gungho to get out and fight, but he really, really wants the ring and has no qualms about becoming a dark lord.

Joyus Morning is a warrior and she doesn't trust Good Steel.  That's her motive for volunteering.  The only thing is that she doesn't trust anyone.  She's spent her whole life training to keep the world out of Lorien and she's terrified but she's more terrifiec that Good Steel will get the ring.  That's why she keeps flirting with him.

Fair Leaf understands the language of birds.  She's on good terms with the great eagles, ravens, and even the occasional crow.  The birds bring her tidings from all ove the world so she's the most informed and up to date member of the fellowship.  She lost her mother in the dark days after Moria fell and wishes they didn't have to bring the dwarfs but she'll be glad to have them out of Lorien.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 06:39:55 PM
To Grognard GM and Geekybugle -- as I said, Galadriel temporarily keeping the Ring is a device that isn't necessary. On reflection, I can just have Frodo pass it to the next bearer. However, as for who could be a bearer and what the Ring's power is, that's rather central to this scenario.

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 19, 2023, 04:46:41 PM
Also, there HAS to be a Hobbit as ring-bearer. Protestations of character over bio-essentialism aside, bullshit. Smeagol, Bilbo and Frodo all have ludicrous resistance to the power of the ring (sure Smeagol turns in to a twisted maniac, but think of how long he's able to hold it and evade discovery by Sauron.) There is 100% something about Hobbits, beyond personal morality and strength of will.

Within minutes of simply being in the Ring's presence, Smeagol turned from an ordinary (presumably non-murderous) hobbit into someone who murdered his cousin Deagol just to get it. So I don't agree that he had ludicrous resistance to its power. That he didn't draw Sauron's attention may have more to do with the state Sauron was in at the time, or might have been due to his weakness, but he was thoroughly corrupted immediately.

Isildur held the Ring for two years, with no mention of his becoming evil or Sauron's pawn. (The movies invented a scene where Elrond brought him to Mount Doom and told him to destroy it, but as far as I can tell, that isn't how it happened in Tolkien.)
During the two years, Isildur didn't either bring it to Sauron willingly or use it for his own evil ends.

So it seems to me that the Ring had more power over Smeagol than over Isildur.

Hence, I don't think it is inherently a hobbit thing. One could extrapolate that, but it's reasoning from only four cases.

Me thinks you have me mistaken with someone else, I haven't commented in this thread before now.

My only input would be: you can't have a new fellowship, but that's just me you do you.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2023, 07:35:32 PM
Me thinks you have me mistaken with someone else, I haven't commented in this thread before now.

My only input would be: you can't have a new fellowship, but that's just me you do you.

Whoops. Sorry about that. Looking back, I must have meant Brad.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 07:38:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 19, 2023, 07:35:32 PM
Me thinks you have me mistaken with someone else, I haven't commented in this thread before now.

My only input would be: you can't have a new fellowship, but that's just me you do you.

Whoops. Sorry about that. Looking back, I must have meant Brad.

No harm no foul.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 06:39:55 PM
Within minutes of simply being in the Ring's presence, Smeagol turned from an ordinary (presumably non-murderous) hobbit into someone who murdered his cousin Deagol just to get it. So I don't agree that he had ludicrous resistance to its power. That he didn't draw Sauron's attention may have more to do with the state Sauron was in at the time, or might have been due to his weakness, but he was thoroughly corrupted immediately.

Isildur held the Ring for two years, with no mention of his becoming evil or Sauron's pawn. (The movies invented a scene where Elrond brought him to Mount Doom and told him to destroy it, but as far as I can tell, that isn't how it happened in Tolkien.)
During the two years, Isildur didn't either bring it to Sauron willingly or use it for his own evil ends.

So it seems to me that the Ring had more power over Smeagol than over Isildur.

Hence, I don't think it is inherently a hobbit thing. One could extrapolate that, but it's reasoning from only four cases.

Smeagol was an absolute dick, and probably (most likely) psychopathic before he ever saw the Ring. He got turned pretty much instantly because the Ring gave him exactly what he already wanted in spades. Further, he wanted to BE Sauron; he wasn't Sauron's willing slave or anything of the sort. So even though the Ring corrupted his mind, it never really "controlled him" beyond making him more like himself. Contrast with Isildur, who was in direct succession of the half-elven and Dunedain, literally a man of ridiculous levels of mental fortitude. The Ring, and Sauron by extension, could never truly corrupt him in the absolute sense, hence why it left him when it had the opportunity. So, this really isn't a fair comparison, even though I get what you're saying.

Yes, the Ring affected those two very differently, BUT IN GENERAL, it does looks like hobbits as a whole were much more resistant to malevolent magic than any other group of people, as a whole. Pippin picking up the palantir, for instance, then looking into it later...anyone else doing that would essentially be driven insane, but he survived due to his innate innocence and completely lack of evil intent. The same cannot be said for even someone like Boromir who finally had a mental breakdown over the Ring.

THAT STATED, having a hobbit ringbearer might not be necessary for a game, but in the actual fiction I think it is the only thing that'd make sense.

QuoteThen she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

"I pass the test", she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel."

I don't think Galadriel would trust herself to handle the Ring, but I do think she would resist it for a time. Long enough to form a new Fellowship. The Ring worked slowly, taking root right away, but taking time to fully corrupt someone. And Galadirel by the time of LOTR had Seen Some Shit. She was aware of how the desire of power to do Good can easily be twisted.

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 01:34:29 PM

• Rare for Tolkien but important for a convention game, there should be a number of women characters.

I'd only allow straight white males.

iirc, according to the lore, a dwarf could be a decent ring bearer - the race created naturally resistant to evil and magic shenanigans from the start, you know.
faramir also comes to mind as a possible PC - you'd kinda fill both boromir and aragorn places with him alone, without it actually feeling like a placeholder (?)

While we're discussing a authentic Tolkien experience, and quibbling over lore, here's a thought: way too many women.

Tolkien's world is, essentially, one that works along medieval Earth standards when it comes to gender roles. At least with Humans, Dwarves and Hobbits, almost to a fault the warriors and explorers are male.

Now I understand this is for a convention game, and some women will only want to play women so there needs to be a couple of options, but stacking female options just lacks verisimilitude. If you're going all 5e with interchangeable genders, why not just have magic shops, and people tossing fireballs too?

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 20, 2023, 04:28:04 AM
While we're discussing a authentic Tolkien experience, and quibbling over lore, here's a thought: way too many women.

Tolkien's world is, essentially, one that works along medieval Earth standards when it comes to gender roles. At least with Humans, Dwarves and Hobbits, almost to a fault the warriors and explorers are male.

Now I understand this is for a convention game, and some women will only want to play women so there needs to be a couple of options, but stacking female options just lacks verisimilitude. If you're going all 5e with interchangeable genders, why not just have magic shops, and people tossing fireballs too?

The easiest solution is to not make any of the characters anything.  Don't call it out specifically on the sheet and let the player that gets the character decide for themselves.  If all the PCs end up men, so be it.  If they are all women, at least it wasn't a forced decision by the GM.  Chances are you'll probably get a natural split leaning toward more men than women.

Why not use the twin sons of Elrond as PCs?  They are referenced in the books, but you learn pretty much nothing about them.  But they apparently regularly served as emissaries and wandering adventurers so they'd totally fit.  And they knew Galadriel so that fits in with the story lore.

Shelving the Ring is not an option. As Gandalf put it to Denethor, even if the One Ring was buried beneath Mount Mindolluin (the mountain that Minas Tirith butted up against), it would still burn his mind away.

While Eowyn is a deeply sympathetic character, she is an amazingly poor pick for Ringbearer. Remember that she suffered deep conflicts because she watched Theoden crumbling slowly, and feeling trapped by her position and station. These are all flaws the Ring could and would exploit.

I do like the idea of one of Ghan-Buri-Ghan's people, the Pukel-Men, that Theoden parlayed with added to the Fellowship. They were unlovely and crude but they knew what was right and wrong. 'Drive dark away with bright iron!'

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 20, 2023, 04:28:04 AM
While we're discussing a authentic Tolkien experience, and quibbling over lore, here's a thought: way too many women.

Tolkien's world is, essentially, one that works along medieval Earth standards when it comes to gender roles. At least with Humans, Dwarves and Hobbits, almost to a fault the warriors and explorers are male.

Now I understand this is for a convention game, and some women will only want to play women so there needs to be a couple of options, but stacking female options just lacks verisimilitude. If you're going all 5e with interchangeable genders, why not just have magic shops, and people tossing fireballs too?

I agree that female main characters are rare for Tolkien (as I say in my original post), but I want to leave that up to the players. The players can have an all-male party if they want, but they could also have female characters. As I mentioned, I want to make 10 or more PCs for 5 players, so they will have choices.

While all-male PCs would be the norm, I think Galadriel being in charge of the new Fellowship could be an excuse to allow women. Even among elves who have equality between sexes, men were still the soldiers - but Galadriel was an exception. Tolkien wrote in his letters of Galadriel "...She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats." In the Kinslaying At Alqualonde "she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin", and she is mentioned to have fought in The Battle of Lammoth.

Admittedly, just because she is an Amazon herself doesn't inherently mean she will support sending out women, but it's enough that I'd support players choosing some women if they want.

---

As an aside, the thing with Tolkien is that he goes beyond being medieval to strangely lacking in women. Even in medieval sagas, women will show up as wives and mothers who take an active role in their families. The Laxdaela Saga has the widowed matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded as a central figure, for example.

In Tolkien, there are almost no mortal wives or mothers. Theoden and Denethor are both widowed never remarrying, and their eldest sons are unmarried at age 40. Bilbo is a lifelong bachelor, and Frodo a bachelor at 50 - along with the rest of the Fellowship. Aragorn a bachelor at 87 at least has the excuse of his love for Arwen, but still. In a medieval saga, they'd almost all have their wives gird them up at home before going out to battle. Galadriel and Elrond are the rare married characters, and they're thousands of years old. The Ents go to the furthest extreme where the women of their entire species simply disappear.

So I don't feel too bad about erring a little in the other direction if players want.

So the obvious thing to do so that people can play female characters, is to limit choices to just the thematically appropriate.

Wise-Woman/Healer
Thief
Druid-type/wise in nature but not a ranger.
Any combative characters must be Elven
No female Dwarves whatsoever

But who am I kidding? You can't put setting limitations on anyone in 2023. So quibble over setting minutiae, while ignoring a major aspect of the setting, because Tolkien having a realistically male dominated society is MORE reason to counter balance it with a game full of lots of stronk whamen, not less. It's a Middle Earth for the modern audience after all.