Over in one of the neverending "What if D&D wasn't so great?" threads, someone made a post that leads to a far more interesting and meaningful what-if scenario that isn't based on D&D-hate.

The original poster posited: what if TSR had expanded D&D to other possible kinds of settings (D&D Sci Fi, D&D Superheros, etc)? Would they have ended up having a much wider dominance of the market?

In reality, TSR sort of DID attempt that: they put out Gamma World, Star Frontiers, and Boot Hill; all relatively quite early in their history. If that wasn't an attempt to capture other genres, I don't know what is.  But in essence, the attempt failed, with none of those three games being able to achieve dominance of any meaningful sort, with the first of the above having a modicum of popularity, the second much less, and the third less still.

So could they have done it different? Could there have been a way that they would have overcome Traveller to have the definitive early Sci-fi RPG?  Because that's basically what it would all come down to: had TSR had the early control of BOTH the fantasy and Sci-fi genres in roleplaying, I think that is all they'd have needed to be the utterly dominant force.

RPGPundit

Quite simply stated: if TSR had got a Star Wars license ca. 1980 and released an RPG, like, right after Empire came out...I think that would've helped them to OWN SFRPGs.

EDIT:  Come t'think it, why did it take until 1987 for a licensed Star Wars RPG to hit the shelves?

IF they had come up with a true "house system" that had its roots in original D&D mechanics this idea might have worked.

Done right , a good generic Space Sci-Fi game published by TSR would have worked.

When I was a teenager the two biggest RPGs being played were either D&D or TRAVELLER. if you said you were playing Science fiction - most other gamers assumed you were playing TRAVELLER, if you said you were playing fantasy, most other gamers knew you meant D&D.


- Ed C.

The sad truth is that scifi RPGs are rilly unpopular, so the market segment in question is minimal anyway.

SW is always a special case. It's not quite accurate to say that SW relates to scifi RPGs as D&D relates to fantasy RPGs. It's a much larger phenomenon than RPGs. Sure, it would have raked in cash from the fans and in the process converted a fraction of them to gaming, as WEG SW did. But I suspect WEG SW had one toe in the hobby and one massive foot in fanboidom.

There's no such thing as a meaningful what if.

Quote from: AosThere's no such thing as a meaningful what if.

What if there was?

I swear, if you don't stop, I'm going to divide by zero!

I think TSR missed the boat by not doing a D&D system game, but "In Space!"

Just look at how d20 affected the market - early on almost everyone and their mother ditched their house systems for the D&D/d20 system.

I wanted to exclude d20 from my own thread but I think it has bearing in this one. Especially as there would likely be no OGL in 79.

If TSR had the 1979 equivalent of d20 modern, scifi, etc. (but with catchier names) I don't doubt that they would have an even more dominant market share.

The vast majority of RPG players only play D&D or d20 games now. If that had started in 79, other rpg companies would be even more fringe than they are now.

I don't think universal systems like Gurps or Hero would even exist because 79'd20 would already be there.


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Quote from: JaegerIf TSR had the 1979 equivalent of d20 modern, scifi, etc. (but with catchier names) I don't doubt that they would have an even more dominant market share.

But as far as I know, D20 Modern and even D20 Star Wars are not clear successes.  They seem to be just minor blips in the middle of the pack with GURPS and others.  

Also, none of the TSR sci-fi games based on earlier D&D mechanics -- like Metamorphosis Alpha or Buck Rogers -- ever made even a blip.  It seems to me that the less D&D-like attempts such as Star Frontiers and Alternity were more successful.

Now, obviously, if they made really good sci-fi games, they could have invaded the niche-of-a-niche that is sci-fi RPGs.  However, I don't think the thing holding them back was not using D&D mechanics.

Gamma World was also an sf D&D and not a huge hit.  D&D was a huge hit because it was fantasy not because it was a roleplaying game.

This thread is making me wonder why fantasy rpgs are so much more dominant. If EGG and crew had been into scifi more, and had decided to make a scifi rpg instead of fantasy (which would have been a bigger stretch from their wargaming, I know), would the hobby even have been as popular? If DnD had been successfully split into genres would they all be equally popular now? Search me, I know I was into fantasy back then because I loved books like Conan, LotR, John Carter, Gor. I don't remember reading as much scifi back then, was there as much accessible to kids? I had some children's books that were scifi, but I don't remember any at the level of the fantasy books I mentioned.

Thing is, my uneducated guess would be that the readership of scifi books has always been larger than that of fantasy books.

It may be that Traveller did some harm here with the paradigm it established. It wedded Space Opera, the most popular scifi genre evar, to an, ahem, military-industrial complex nerd infatuation with gear, design sequences and planetology. As a result, the whole sense of wonder thing, which Space Opera *novels* do share with fantasy, got drowned out by gearheadiness, or so it could seem. And that may have turned people off.

I would have to say that as for my uneducated guess that nine out of ten people who read Sf read fantasy too and visa versa*. I would, however, agree with your assessment of Traveller. I have a vivid memory of how confused I was about the near absence of aliens and energy weapons in the original 3 LBBs. Even if I had thought to sat up my own, my group in those days would never have gone for it (I was definitely the whipping boy in those days). We switched to Space Opera immedeately after we got our hands on it.
Funny thing, though, I'd gladly play CT today, but no way would I go near SO.




*I worked as a book seller for years, both in a general book stores (Cody's in Berkeley, Boulder Bookstore in...er Boulder) and one SFand F store (The other change of Hobbit in Berkeley).

Quote from: AosI would have to say that as for my uneducated guess that nine out of ten people who read Sf read fantasy too and visa versa*.

Yes, that's true.

Quote(I was definitely the whipping boy in those days).

Me too. Ingrates, all of them. Their saving grace was that they were great D&D players.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityMe too. Ingrates, all of them. Their saving grace was that they were great D&D players.

The saving grace of mine is they're all still trapped in Watertown, NY.