Quote from: The Butcher;610237To be fair, this behavior certainly isn't exclusive to the old school. The storygamers, and just about every fan community referring to other fan communities, have been known to belittle and disparage others with different tastes in gaming or comics or whatever. Pundit just happens to be particularly vitriolic and obnoxious about it.

Like someone once said about academia, the fights are so vicious because the stakes are so very low.

True. But there's a big difference I've noticed. Both sides sneer at the other. But the old schoolers often seem to act like the story gamers killed their puppy; I haven't seen anywhere near the sense of outrage by the story gamers.

Quote from: akiva;609858My point was that you were clearly suggesting that Dungeonworld was an attempt to secretly destroy and/or ruin old-school gaming and/or the OSR--as if story gamers see old school gamers as the enemy. Which is just plain ridiculous. If anything, it's the other way around--a lot of old school type gamers seem to see story games as an atrocity and not real gaming. Which is funny 'cause so many old school gamers lament the fact that the new school gamers are so mean to them.

I regard Dungeon World more as an ironic love letter to OSR gaming than as an OSR game, which it certainly is not.  I don't think the authors intend to deliver the same experience with Dungeon World as, say, Dark Dungeons would.

Quote from: akiva;610235You're the one who talked about it as if it were a secret conspiracy.

I think (1) you're very inaccurate; I don't think the story game crowd pays much attention to the old school stuff, and I don't think old school stuff is actually much (if at all) more popular than it used to be, so there isn't a popularity to be latched on to.* (2) Your language is really obnoxious. These guys are parasites? They play games you don't like; who cares? If you don't like their games, just don't play them.

This is a nice demonstration, actually, of what a lot of people (including me) don't like about a lot of the old schoolers--they idealize one style of play as the one true faith, and lash out with a lot of nastiness at people who disagree with them. I've read a lot of the posts by the story game crowd, but overall I think the tone of the OSR group is a lot more venomous: story gamers (or any other new school gamers) are immature, uncreative, parasites, morons . . . on and on.

In support, Dungeon World is currently number one at DTRPG right now, not any OSR clone.  I think people are simply playing DW because it is a plain ass fun game and on the strength of how well Apocalypse World did.  People don't drop their scheckles on unfun stuff, and if AW sucked then people wouldn't buy a successor product.

DW most certainly is not aimed at the OSR crowd.

Quote from: akiva;610238True. But there's a big difference I've noticed. Both sides sneer at the other. But the old schoolers often seem to act like the story gamers killed their puppy; I haven't seen anywhere near the sense of outrage by the story gamers.

That's because Dogs in the Vineyard doesn't have a 20-25 year history of one type of play only to be replaced by Dogs in the Vineyard 4.0 using a variant of FATAL.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;610330That's because Dogs in the Vineyard doesn't have a 20-25 year history of one type of play only to be replaced by Dogs in the Vineyard 4.0 using a variant of FATAL.  

To be fair, neither does D&D--even from the beginning, there were lots of different play styles. That only grew as the game grew.

Quote from: CRKrueger;610330That's because Dogs in the Vineyard doesn't have a 20-25 year history of one type of play only to be replaced by Dogs in the Vineyard 4.0 using a variant of FATAL.  

Also, Dogs in the Vineyard didn't mess that up (if that's how you see it); WotC did. So why be angry with the DitV people?

Quote from: akiva;610235You're the one who talked about it as if it were a secret conspiracy.

I think (1) you're very inaccurate; I don't think the story game crowd pays much attention to the old school stuff, and I don't think old school stuff is actually much (if at all) more popular than it used to be, so there isn't a popularity to be latched on to.* (2) Your language is really obnoxious. These guys are parasites?

If the shoe fits...  How else would you describe an alien object that latches on to a healthy host for sustenance rather than trying to find its own meal ticket?

QuoteThey play games you don't like; who cares? If you don't like their games, just don't play them.

This is a nice demonstration, actually, of what a lot of people (including me) don't like about a lot of the old schoolers--they idealize one style of play as the one true faith, and lash out with a lot of nastiness at people who disagree with them. I've read a lot of the posts by the story game crowd, but overall I think the tone of the OSR group is a lot more venomous: story gamers (or any other new school gamers) are immature, uncreative, parasites, morons . . . on and on.

Really? I don't recall the OSR being the ones who suggested the other side are brain-damaged sexual abuse victims who are engaging in dangerous delusions by wanting Immersion.

RPGPundit

Quote from: akiva;610238True. But there's a big difference I've noticed. Both sides sneer at the other. But the old schoolers often seem to act like the story gamers killed their puppy; I haven't seen anywhere near the sense of outrage by the story gamers.

Outrage is usually reserved to the offended party, the ones who are on the defensive against an attack on their person.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;610675If the shoe fits...  How else would you describe an alien object that latches on to a healthy host for sustenance rather than trying to find its own meal ticket?

How is a game alien to another game? Perhaps it's RPGs in general, and D&D in particular, that the parasites latching on to wargaming.

Quote from: RPGPundit;610675Really? I don't recall the OSR being the ones who suggested the other side are brain-damaged sexual abuse victims who are engaging in dangerous delusions by wanting Immersion.

When and where was that said? And is it a sentiment widely repeated by story gamers? 'Cause the idea that everyone who isn't an old school gamer is immature, stupid, lacking in creativity, and/or is destroying the hobby has been said repeatedly, by *many* old schoolers (including several of your posts in this message).

And also, why do you care if someone said that about you? Obviously that's an obnoxious and dumb-ass thing to say; so what? Ignore the person who said it. Or are you so sensitive that you can't ignore the opinion of someone you've probably never met?

Quote from: RPGPundit;610676Outrage is usually reserved to the offended party, the ones who are on the defensive against an attack on their person.

RPGPundit

You mean the ones who repeatedly call non-old schoolers borderline retarded, completely uncreative, and parasites? You're right--those are far from personal attacks.

Let's cut the 'swine talk' and get this excellent thread back on track.

In a rare visit to Rpgnet Incame across a D&D hack for MiddleEarth that is quite brilliant. It's loosely based on B/X and I would put it in the 'other' category.

It's the brainchild of Lars Dangly and is available for free download from Googledocs. Based on a quick read through I think it's easily the best d&d conversion for MiddleEarth. Even if you don't agree with every decision taken this should be the baseline document for making it work.

The game is not fully complete but it's close enough to be fully usable as is. The link below is to the thread that lead to the game. The link to Googledocs is on page 7.

][URL="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?663921-D-amp-D-in-Middle-Earth"[/URL]

Quote from: akiva;610700How is a game alien to another game? Perhaps it's RPGs in general, and D&D in particular, that the parasites latching on to wargaming.

Sorry no, but there's the exact answer to your question:  RPGs developed out of wargaming, but did Gygax and co. say "this is how wargaming always ought to have been!" and started calling their new games "wargames" and tried to introduce roleplaying mechanics into all wargames?
No.
They had the balls to say "this is a new hobby: roleplaying games", and try to make it on their own rather than using the more familiar (at that time) title of "wargame" as the way to get sales.They dared to be independent.

Storygames don't dare to do that. Instead, they want to just subvert the RPG hobby, replacing RPG systems with "storygame systems" which are not the same.

QuoteWhen and where was that said? And is it a sentiment widely repeated by story gamers?

By Ron Edwards, creator of the Forge, GNS theory, and the main architect of Storygames. So yes, its absolutely official party line. And no significant name in storygames has ever repudiated him for saying it. It is what storygamers believe, and it is a part of the assumptions behind the Theory that drives all storygame mechanics (that is, the rejection of immersion and emulation for those alleged reasons).

QuoteAnd also, why do you care if someone said that about you? Obviously that's an obnoxious and dumb-ass thing to say; so what? Ignore the person who said it. Or are you so sensitive that you can't ignore the opinion of someone you've probably never met?

I care what an entire movement that is determined to redefine my hobby says, not about me, but about the hobby.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Fiasco;610819Let's cut the 'swine talk' and get this excellent thread back on track.

In a rare visit to Rpgnet Incame across a D&D hack for MiddleEarth that is quite brilliant. It's loosely based on B/X and I would put it in the 'other' category.

It's the brainchild of Lars Dangly and is available for free download from Googledocs. Based on a quick read through I think it's easily the best d&d conversion for MiddleEarth. Even if you don't agree with every decision taken this should be the baseline document for making it work.

The game is not fully complete but it's close enough to be fully usable as is. The link below is to the thread that lead to the game. The link to Googledocs is on page 7.

][URL="http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?663921-D-amp-D-in-Middle-Earth"[/URL]

I'll add it to the list, then!

I'm looking at the PDF, and it's a very beautiful piece of work!

Quote from: RPGPundit;610888Sorry no, but there's the exact answer to your question:  RPGs developed out of wargaming, but did Gygax and co. say "this is how wargaming always ought to have been!" and started calling their new games "wargames" and tried to introduce roleplaying mechanics into all wargames?
No.

If that's true, then why was the original edition described as being for "fantastic medieval wargames"? Sounds to me that Gygaz & Co were trying to be "parasites" (to use your term) in the wargaming community. That doesn't sound ballsy to me. And, just like old school RPGers, there are still wargamers who hate Gygax and RPGs for destroying wargaming.

Quote from: RPGPundit;610888By Ron Edwards, creator of the Forge, GNS theory, and the main architect of Storygames. So yes, its absolutely official party line. And no significant name in storygames has ever repudiated him for saying it. It is what storygamers believe, and it is a part of the assumptions behind the Theory that drives all storygame mechanics (that is, the rejection of immersion and emulation for those alleged reasons).

One of the things people on this forum--and you in particular--point out frequently (and correctly) is that "OSR" is misleading in some ways because people involved do different things and have different expectations. But somehow the storygamers are all the same and have a "party line"? That's ridiculous--once again, you are doing what you (correctly) criticize others for doing to old school gamers.

There is a *huge* variety of story gamers, many of whom (maybe most of whom) were never part of the Forge scene. I've seen a lot of story gamers distance themselves from Edwards and the like. If nothing else, the most popular story games by far have little or nothing to do with the Forge.

As to your point that no one in the story gamer community has ever called out Edwards, that's simply not true. If you read the Forge post where Edwards first made that claim, there are at least several (I didn't read the whole thread--it's very long) responders who took Edwards to task for the harshness of his rhetoric. In fact, one of the Forge moderators left the site because of Edwards' comments.

And by the same token, have you, or JMal, or any of the other prominent old schoolers, stepped up and repudiated some of the hateful remarks made by some old schoolers? Not that I'm aware of. I know it's only one example, but JMal tacitly approved of such comments, and then proceeded to delete comments by people who disagreed with him.

You're entitled to your own opinions; you are not entitled to your own facts. So your justification for being a jackass is based on nonsense--that is, if you actually look at the facts. Hate on Ron Edwards all you want--I think he's a pretentious jackass--but that doesn't justify hating and insulting the whole story game community.

(In case you're wondering, I'm not a story gamer; neither am I an old schooler. I think both camps have things to offer, but either approach, by itself, is unsatisfactory to me. I don't care if other people like either; they're just not my cup of tea)

Quote from: akiva;611021(In case you're wondering, I'm not a story gamer; neither am I an old schooler. I think both camps have things to offer, but either approach, by itself, is unsatisfactory to me. I don't care if other people like either; they're just not my cup of tea)

Dude if that's true then why don't you start Your Very Own Thread on how those poor old story gamers are mistreated instead of stinking up a thread about listing old school games.

Thanks.