Getting back on topic as much as possible, Red Box Fantasy (not to be confused with Redbox Hack) is an OSR-style game which is, as the name suggests, (very loosely) based on "Red Box" i.e. BECMI D&D. It is not a retroclone of any particular edition but is nevertheless very recognizably draws inspiration from old versions of D&D and especially the one it's named for. It would belong in the "Old school but not a retroclone" category, with the BECMI category being a distant second choice.

IMO it's one of the better old-school games but almost nobody talks about it or even seems to have heard of it. The player's book can be downloaded from the above address for free and I encourage people to take advantage of that as it deserves a wider audience (if you give it a read and disagree with me, hey, at least it didn't cost you anything).

Incidentally, there isn't a working link above for Redbox Hack (the link to the blog works, but the links from there to the actual game don't). Also, I strongly dispute labeling LotFP as a BECMI clone. It's based almost entirely on OD&D with almost no elements from the later Basic editions, and the changes it makes to OD&D are mostly in the opposite direction; most obviously it makes PCs less rather than more powerful.

Quote from: Fiasco;611064Dude if that's true then why don't you start Your Very Own Thread on how those poor old story gamers are mistreated instead of stinking up a thread about listing old school games.

Thanks.

You (not you personally, but OSR people and particularly Pundit) don't get to bring up what a bunch of dicks you think story gamers are, then turn around and say they're off topic for responding. You're the ones who made it on topic.

I say this as someone with exactly zero good things to say about most storygames (but far less than zero good things to say about Pundit's attitude).

Quote from: purpleplatypus;611188You (not you personally, but OSR people and particularly Pundit) don't get to bring up what a bunch of dicks you think story gamers are, then turn around and say they're off topic for responding. You're the ones who made it on topic.

I say this as someone with exactly zero good things to say about most storygames (but far less than zero good things to say about Pundit's attitude).

I just want this thread to stay on topic. I agree that The Pundit didn't help things either but the day won't dawn where he lets a 'swine' go unchallenged.

Anyway back on topic I think LotFP is pretty clearly B/X inspired and not OD&D. For one thing the race as class was not really OD&D (elfs could adventure as magic users or fighters and kept separate totals for xp).

When you look at level and spell progressions and the like it again follows B/X.

Ad to the fact that Jim's gaming background was a hell of a lot more B/X era than OD&D and I think it's little surprise that most see LotFP as a B/X based retroclone. What I do agree is that a number of the changes introduced by James gives it more of an OD&D feel but I think his baseline rules were more modern.

In terms of power level I don't see them being weaker per we when you consider some of the default assumptions of the Weird Fantasy genre.

Quote from: Fiasco;611207Anyway back on topic I think LotFP is pretty clearly B/X inspired and not OD&D. For one thing the race as class was not really OD&D (elfs could adventure as magic users or fighters and kept separate totals for xp).

Indeed, I think that's a huge misconception about OD&D. Race and class were most certainly distinct in the original books. It makes clear that Dwarf and Hobbits/Halfings are fighters (or fighting men, rather) and as you say, Elfs can choose to be either fighting men or magic-users depending on the adventure.

(And with Greyhawk, it's virtually AD&D.)

Plus, Clerics get a spell at first level, which is un-OD&D like.

What was that old Saxon/Celtic game pitched on the big purple?

Quote from: Silverlion;611222What was that old Saxon/Celtic game pitched on the big purple?

Raedwald?

Quote from: The Butcher;607505I'm familiar with BECMI by way of RC, and I feel ACKS would be better described as a variant ("transgenic"?) BEC or "E14 RC" (to borrow from "E6", as D&D 3e capped at level 6 is often referred to).

I haven't really run a comprehensive side-by-side compariosn, but I've checked a few details (e.g. prices for everything from a battle axe or a lantern, to a war galley or a portcullis) and it's a pretty solid match with the RC.

ACKS grew out of a set of house rules I wrote for my B/X campaign. The domain rules were inspired by Mentzer's Companion rules but ended up significantly departing from them.

RC was of limited utility because ACKS was strictly designed to max out at 14th level whereas RC is 36th-level focused. Thus where B/X differs from BECMI, ACKS usually follows B/X. You'll see this in the thief's skill progression, in the cleric's spell progression, etc.

Most of the changes and additions in ACKS are either (1) economic, to flesh out the high-end game; (2) rationalizations of disparate mechanics, to create two basic sub-systems (roll 1d20 v. target number, or roll 2d6 on a table); (3) following up on logical implications of a default D&D setting (e.g. races must each have their own classes, mages must be able to crossbreed monsters); or (4) introducing mechanics to balance things I thought were unbalanced (e.g. adding in cleaves).

With the Player's Companion, of course, ACKS is rapidly becoming its own beast.

Quote from: purpleplatypus;611188You (not you personally, but OSR people and particularly Pundit) don't get to bring up what a bunch of dicks you think story gamers are, then turn around and say they're off topic for responding. You're the ones who made it on topic.

I say this as someone with exactly zero good things to say about most storygames (but far less than zero good things to say about Pundit's attitude).

Your postcount proves just how invested and committed you are to this site and that you're totally not someone who came here from Storygames or the "grognards.txt" thread.

In any case, I actually do get to bring up absolutely anything I want.  However, this is a thread about making a list of retro clones; no one is talking about censoring anyone; if you want to keep discussing the topic, its just that common courtesy would demand that if you've come here specifically to argue that point and not to talk about making a list of retro clones (a list which Dungeon World, as a storygame, doesn't fit into anywhere at all), you should probably start another thread.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Derabar;6087051. Question is: does any game which tries to emulate 'sword and sorcery' count as 'Old School' for this purpose? In which case, Jaws of the Six Serpents could be added, Barbarians of Lemuria, On Mighty Thews, BASH Fantasy and several others.

2. Back to retroclones, where would Stars Without Number fit, if at all? Based of some version of D&D from what I understand, but it's not fantasy. Does that matter?

1. Does the RPG have inspiration from any of the versions of Dungeons & Dragons and/or their rulesets (or even inspired by other retroclones)?  If not, then I don't want to put it on the list.

2. From what I read, Stars Without Number tries to combine the OD&D ruleset with Traveller. I'll put it under Other.

In regards to Dungeon World, I'll the dissenting voice here and say that I think it's Old School from the designer's intentions.  If the designer created a game to be Old School, I'll put it on the list.  If a designer created a game to emulate 1st Edition, I'll put it under the 1st Edition list.  I don't have enough time and effort to look through each RPG to see if it succeeds at its stated goal.

I will put my personal feelings aside and take Dungeon World off the list if it will help put a stop to the drama in this thread.  I'd also like to request that some of the more argumentative posts get moved to another thread, as they have little bearing on the discussion at hand.

Edit: took off Dungeon World.  Some things must be sacrificed for the Greater Good.

Not exactly D&D retro clones, but then not everything on your list is anyway:

Stone & Wood, Ancient Mysteries & Lost Treasures, Blood & Bullets, Sabres & Witchery

All here:

http://beyondbeliefgames.webs.com/freestuff.htm

Thanks, Simon W!

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;611233Raedwald?

That is a pretty cool concept but I would almost call it more of a setting than a full game. I do like the flavour of that game, however.

Quote from: Fiasco;611343That is a pretty cool concept but I would almost call it more of a setting than a full game.

AFAIK it was planned to be a stand alone OD&D/S&W White Box clone (when it's finished). It's still WIP. And I am looking forward to the end product which I hope will end up on Lulu as a print product.

This:

Quote from: Libertad;6113301. Does the RPG have inspiration from any of the versions of Dungeons & Dragons and/or their rulesets (or even inspired by other retroclones)?  If not, then I don't want to put it on the list.

and this:

QuoteIn regards to Dungeon World, I'll the dissenting voice here and say that I think it's Old School from the designer's intentions.  

is a contradiction. Dungeon World is based on Apocalypse World, another storygame by Vince fucking Baker. Its not inspired by any edition of D&D.  Sage Latorra was not inspired by Gary Gygax or Mentzer or Holmes, he was inspired by Vince Baker and Ron Edwards.
Its mechanics aren't based on 1e or OD&D or the RC, they're based on arguing for stakes, triggering moves, and making mechanical use of the "bonds" between characters.
The only time Sage Latorra ever gave a shit about D&D was when he tried to get me fired from consulting for it (by the way, motherfucker, if you're reading this (and I know you will be), I'm still here!).

Dungeon World isn't an homage to D&D, its an attempt to trick D&D players into "getting excited by storygames", by taking one of vince baker's games and putting the thinnest veneer of a D&D facade over it, with the specific intention of drawing people AWAY from D&D and toward a completely different hobby.
If anything, its ANTI-retro. Its specifically an attempt to salt the earth of all that was by trying to subvert all existing values. Its gramscian socialism in an RPG form.


RPGPundit

Where "consulting for it" means what exactly? Downloading and giving feedback on the playtest packets like anyone with an e-mail address can do?