Quote from: CRKrueger;607697Dungeon World without a doubt needs to be removed from that list.  A Retro-clone is something that attempts to clone an older version of D&D in some fashion or another.  Dungeon World isn't anything remotely close to that in any way shape or form.

I can create a game that seems kinda like D&D by taking certain mechanics from Traveller, Torg, or WEG Star Wars, but that is not a retro-clone.

You basically need a Retro-But Not Clone Category(which is where a lot would fit in like Wayfarers and F:tA!).  BTW, Dungeon World wouldn't fit into that either.  There's also absolutely nothing Retro about it.

Isn't DW a storygame?  I mean, by their own admission.  If it's not I apologize.

Quote from: Libertad;607601I own the free version of LotFP, but since I don't have the OD&D rules, I do not know where it's deviated.  Specifically what changes has it made which would merit its move?  Or is this just for comparison, and the entry's location is fine as is?

Only fighters gain bonuses to hit, the skill system is different, combat options are quite different, and the spell list is considerably changed (things like most combat spells, as well as raise dead, are out, a bunch of very weird spells and a very detailed summoning spell are in).

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Quote from: thedungeondelver;607718Isn't DW a storygame?  I mean, by their own admission.  If it's not I apologize.

They don't call it a storygame that I have heard.  The Xworld system is a very odd system.  If you look at just the mechanics, it seems basically traditional, and plays traditional.

There are however some narrative decisions made by the player not the character, however, that isn't necessarily baked into the game.  The idea is that there are certain mechanics, called "moves" that both the players and GMs can do.  Some of the moves require some OOC thinking by the player, but the moves could easily be changed to be completely IC.

There is no shared narration, the GM interprets all dice results.

What the Xworld system is, is a new-school design toolkit that is set up to give GMs and players the tools to play a game following certain trope and genre conventions.

What it is not, by any stretch of the imagination is anything Retro, or anything Clone.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;607718Isn't DW a storygame?  I mean, by their own admission.  If it's not I apologize.

Its definitely not a retro-clone in any case, and I wouldn't call it an OSR game either.

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Kickstarter Description:

Game with modern rules and old school style.

It's not specifically emulating earlier rules, but at least the feel of Old School Gaming.  Unlike most other RPGs on the list it's not trying to go for a certain Edition style.

@ CRKrueger and Dungeon Delver: I have not seen the designers refer to their product as a retro clone or story-game in any case.

I'm taking it off for the time being.

This reminds me of one more point: do you personally think that a game can be a retro clone if it emulates the thematics of old school play, despite using a 'modern' rules system?

Quote from: Libertad;608382This reminds me of one more point: do you personally think that a game can be a retro clone if it emulates the thematics of old school play, despite using a 'modern' rules system?

That makes it hard to see it being a clone of an older system, then.  It seems more like a modern game that is inspired by older play; kind of like what D&D Next is aiming for.

It didn't feel right to take off Dungeon World and Retro Phaze, so I decided to make a new category: Old School but not Retro Clone.  It's when a game designer uses themes and elements from "Old School Gaming" yet uses a more "modern" system, or does not view their RPG as a Retro Clone.

Quote from: Libertad;608680I decided to make a new category: Old School but not Retro Clone.  It's when a game designer uses themes and elements from "Old School Gaming" yet uses a more "modern" system, or does not view their RPG as a Retro Clone.

In which case I'd be of the opinion that Shadow, Sword and Spell should be in there. Game mechanic-wise it bears no resemblance to D&D - it uses 2D12 with degrees of success as opposed to a D20 based system.

Question is: does any game which tries to emulate 'sword and sorcery' count as 'Old School' for this purpose? In which case, Jaws of the Six Serpents could be added, Barbarians of Lemuria, On Mighty Thews, BASH Fantasy and several others.

Back to retroclones, where would Stars Without Number fit, if at all? Based of some version of D&D from what I understand, but it's not fantasy. Does that matter?

The only other one I can think of that's not on the list is Warriors & Warlocks.

Have to add Arrows of Indra to the list in a month or so...

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Quote from: Derabar;6087051. In which case I'd be of the opinion that Shadow, Sword and Spell should be in there. Game mechanic-wise it bears no resemblance to D&D - it uses 2D12 with degrees of success as opposed to a D20 based system.

2. Question is: does any game which tries to emulate 'sword and sorcery' count as 'Old School' for this purpose? In which case, Jaws of the Six Serpents could be added, Barbarians of Lemuria, On Mighty Thews, BASH Fantasy and several others.

3. Back to retroclones, where would Stars Without Number fit, if at all? Based of some version of D&D from what I understand, but it's not fantasy. Does that matter?

4. The only other one I can think of that's not on the list is Warriors & Warlocks.

1. Okay.

2. Is it trying to emulate D&D?  Barbarians of Lemuria, from what I hear, is more of a Conan RPG retro clone.

3. I don't know.  What are other folks' thoughts on Stars Without Number?

4. I'll add that.  Thanks!

Also, looking at Radiance RPG.  It's definitely inspired by 3rd Edition and Pathfinder, and the product description on amazon mentions that it would help return table-top gaming to its roots.  Sounds like a retro-clone to me.

It seems you still missed off Tombs & Terrors.

Okay, will add under "Other."

Quote from: Libertad;6089841. Okay.

2. Is it trying to emulate D&D?  Barbarians of Lemuria, from what I hear, is more of a Conan RPG retro clone.

3. I don't know.  What are other folks' thoughts on Stars Without Number?

4. I'll add that.  Thanks!

Also, looking at Radiance RPG.  It's definitely inspired by 3rd Edition and Pathfinder, and the product description on amazon mentions that it would help return table-top gaming to its roots.  Sounds like a retro-clone to me.

The concept of retro clone is now at risk of dying the death of a thousand cuts. I can only advise that you aim first and foremost to make your list actually useful for disambiguating the various alternatives, rather than worrying about thr politics of inclusion or exclusion.

That said, BoL isn't a Conan retro-clone, although it may be retro. It's a broader Swords & Sorcery game, with the name referring to Thongor, a character invented by Lin Carter. The mechanics are all-new. IMO the only game that could be accurately be called a Conan retro-clone is ZeFRS.

Quote from: Libertad;608680It didn't feel right to take off Dungeon World and Retro Phaze, so I decided to make a new category: Old School but not Retro Clone.  It's when a game designer uses themes and elements from "Old School Gaming" yet uses a more "modern" system, or does not view their RPG as a Retro Clone.

Dungeon World is neither a retro clone nor old school. It is a forgie game inspired by the old school movement, since old school is nowadays fashionable. Nothing else.

Quote from: Claudius;609304Dungeon World is neither a retro clone nor old school. It is a forgie game inspired by the old school movement, since old school is nowadays fashionable. Nothing else.

Moreso, its an attempt to subvert the old school movement by stealthily introducing Storygaming concepts under the utterly false facade of a regular RPG.

In other words, the standard Storygamer Swine dirty pool.

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