Quote from: One Horse Town;611838No, it means getting paid to consult on development of d&d next.

For someone with 'no horse in this race' you could have fooled me.

Also, Pundit, that Sage guy tried to get you fired? Was this on a forum or something?

Do you know the username he goes by?

Yeah, dish on that Pundit.

Way back in April, when it became public I'd been hired as a consultant, he posted on his blog a call to boycott WoTC until they fired me, which was subsequently apparently picked up on RPGnet and Google+; like our friend platypus, he pretended that he totally had no stake in this issue and it had nothing to do with the fact that he's a storygamer with an agenda that he knows I oppose, and fears my potential influence might actually make D&D a palatable game again, and therefore make it harder for him to subvert it with utter shit like Dungeon World.

So yeah, the bitch literally tried to take food off my table with an attempt to get me fired.

Fortunately, it became obvious pretty quick that the people behind this business were the "will never play any edition of D&D anyways" crowd, to their threats not to buy WoTC product were fairly idle, and Latorra was seen for what he was: an envious loser with an ideological agenda.

RPGPundit

Thanks for the info.  Yeah, that sound about par for the course for them.

A quick googling for those who are interested:

http://www.latorra.org/2012/04/05/swine-flew/

Google+ :

https://plus.google.com/101741476056657498230/posts/XFZZ2wdue4Y

Couldn't find an entry via google of anything at RPG.net.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611846Way back in April, when it became public I'd been hired as a consultant, he posted on his blog a call to boycott WoTC until they fired me, which was subsequently apparently picked up on RPGnet and Google+; like our friend platypus, he pretended that he totally had no stake in this issue and it had nothing to do with the fact that he's a storygamer with an agenda that he knows I oppose, and fears my potential influence might actually make D&D a palatable game again, and therefore make it harder for him to subvert it with utter shit like Dungeon World.

So yeah, the bitch literally tried to take food off my table with an attempt to get me fired.

Fortunately, it became obvious pretty quick that the people behind this business were the "will never play any edition of D&D anyways" crowd, to their threats not to buy WoTC product were fairly idle, and Latorra was seen for what he was: an envious loser with an ideological agenda.

RPGPundit

Never heard of this guy before today. Read that blog entry - he certainly knows a lot about you.

Of interest, also, is it appears that Pseudo knows Eyebeamz (Malcolm Sheppard). Weird how having knowledge after the event kinda changes everything that happened at that time.

Still, what was said about you was essentially true. I just happen to dislike them more.

Yeah, this Latorra character is probably a douche, and his failure to get Pundit fired should serve as further evidence of the Forge's general irrelevance these days.

But Pundit painting himself as an innocent victim in this particular episode is a joke. The man built his online persona around disparaging an entire community, often with sweeping generalizations and copious amounts of vitriol.

Latorra mobilizing his buddies against Pundit is not too different from the Pundit's usual modus operandi. He isn't even particularly abrasive in his wording. How would Pundejo react if, instead of him, Latorra (or Ron Edwards or some other Forgeite) had been appointed a consultant?

One thing that surprises me in that blog entry is how many people posted in the comments to defend me or condemn him.  Its interesting and gratifying.

Butcher: I sure as fuck wouldn't be calling for a boycott. Of course, there's one other key difference: if WoTC hired Ron Edwards it'd be a sign of their utter contempt for the D&D game by hiring someone who's always despised D&D; whereas their hiring me is a sign of their desire to return to some kind of basic sanity.  So what the guy that created dungeon world is protesting against is the fact that they're hiring people who are actually big advocates of D&D.
The people who I imagine would be protesting your theoretical hiring of edwards would be people who are actually D&D fans. The people protesting my hiring are "people who hate the pundit".
Note that even Latorra doesn't dare to claim that I'm not qualified to consult for 5e, or not an experienced D&D gamer, or not someone who would have the best interests of D&D at heart; no, he goes after my "attitude"; his whole basic argument is that he doesn't like me and other people shouldn't like me either and because of that WoTC should fire me.  And does so by engaging in behaviour every bit as aggressive as what he claims I do.  So much for there not being a war, huh?

RPGPundit

Another once-useful thread that goes down the drain of game-politics...

*sigh*

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;611919Another once-useful thread that goes down the drain of game-politics...

*sigh*

well maybe we could cull off the posts that derailed and move them to the pundit's forum.

Pundit?

You know what, I'll try and put this back on the rails: does Tunnels & Trolls fit anywhere on this master list?  yes, I know it's not "OSR" or "Retro" but you could argue it was the first attempt at replicating the D&D experience without specifically being D&D, and edition after edition has followed through the years (what is it now, 7th or 8th?).  I had the black box 5th edition and at a glance it seemed like a tongue-in-cheek take on Original D&D, but I didn't keep it long enough to really get in to it...

Quote from: One Horse Town;611838For someone with 'no horse in this race' you could have fooled me.

Where did I say that? I don't like being misquoted.

The closest thing I did say, and it's not very close, is that I don't have anything good to say about most storygames. That's absolutely true, and anyone who thinks that conflicts with anything else I've said is welcome to post a rational argument to that effect. Vague insulting insinuations, not so much.

As an example, and also to sort-of return to topic, I took one look at Dungeon World and went "over my dead body". It's nothing like older versions of D&D (and even less like the newer ones). I think the pointless limit of one character of any given class (or whatever they called them) per group was the point where I knew I'd never run it and would be reluctant to play it as written. I don't go in for the conspiracy-theory nonsense being claimed here, but apart from that most of the criticisms of it here seem accurate to me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611907Note that even Latorra doesn't dare to claim that I'm not qualified to consult for 5e, or not an experienced D&D gamer, or not someone who would have the best interests of D&D at heart; no, he goes after my "attitude"; his whole basic argument is that he doesn't like me and other people shouldn't like me either and because of that WoTC should fire me.  

Well, it does seem like an iffy, if not downright bad, PR move, not only for the obvious reasons, but also in contrast to the much more obvious names (Frank Mentzer jumps immediately to mind) who have said they're *not* involved.

Of course, shooting themselves in the ass PR-wise is entirely in character for WotC these days, so maybe I overrated those as reasons to be sceptical of your claim.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611907One thing that surprises me in that blog entry is how many people posted in the comments to defend me or condemn him.  Its interesting and gratifying.

I'd rather have an annoying, self-righteous representative of my gaming preferences influencing D&D, than a soft-spoken, self-righteous orthodox Forgeite. The point I'm making is that your abrasive attitude is at least partly responsible for this reaction, and that if this episode annoys, saddens or infuriates you, you might want to reconsider the whole Pundit act.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611907Butcher: I sure as fuck wouldn't be calling for a boycott.

I'm not convinced.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611907The people who I imagine would be protesting your theoretical hiring of edwards would be people who are actually D&D fans. The people protesting my hiring are "people who hate the pundit".

So none of the protesters are "actual D&D fans"? No True Scotsman fallacy at its finest.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611907Note that even Latorra doesn't dare to claim that I'm not qualified to consult for 5e, or not an experienced D&D gamer, or not someone who would have the best interests of D&D at heart; no, he goes after my "attitude"; his whole basic argument is that he doesn't like me and other people shouldn't like me either and because of that WoTC should fire me.  

And does so by engaging in behaviour every bit as aggressive as what he claims I do.  So much for there not being a war, huh?

Whiny nerds whining on the Internet do not a "war" make. Also...

Quote from: Sage LatorraJust to be clear, I stand by RPGPundit's right to say these things. They're his opinions, no matter how I disagree with them. I just won't fund this kind of speech, even indirectly.

Hiring someone who says these kinds of things about fellow gamers does not fit with the goals of inclusion for D&D Next. I hadn't actually known there was this much animosity against people who just want to play and make fun games. "Swine" are D&D gamers too.

...is this your idea of "aggressive"? Really? Feel free to post other quotes if you think this one isn't representative, but I've read the stuff thedungeondelver linked above and the idea I'm getting is that, for someone who's famous for his choleric screeds against the "Swine", you're coming across as awfully thin-skinned.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;611919Another once-useful thread that goes down the drain of game-politics...

*sigh*

Still worth "stickying" for the informative OP, IMHO.

Quote from: purpleplatypus;611925Where did I say that? I don't like being misquoted.

You said this.

I say this as someone with exactly zero good things to say about most storygames (but far less than zero good things to say about Pundit's attitude).

I guess that makes you right. You didn't say you didn't have a horse in this race. You have one.

Dirk et al, sorry - but you can work around the derail (although it's more of an extension than derail ) if it carries on.

I think the argument whether Dungeon World is inspired by old school is a relevant discussion to have in this thread - where the idea is to list clones and games inspired by old-school.

Quote from: RPGPundit;611846Way back in April, when it became public I'd been hired as a consultant, he posted on his blog a call to boycott WoTC until they fired me, which was subsequently apparently picked up on RPGnet and Google+; ........................................ and Latorra was seen for what he was: an envious loser with an ideological agenda.

RPGPundit

Just a note - in reading that blog entry, there's a quote of yours from 24th December 2012.

That's some epic butt-hurt right there. :rotfl:  Update a 7 month-old blog entry with a 3 day-old quote.

Who does that?

Someone reading this thread and this site, i guess.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;611924You know what, I'll try and put this back on the rails: does Tunnels & Trolls fit anywhere on this master list?  yes, I know it's not "OSR" or "Retro" but you could argue it was the first attempt at replicating the D&D experience without specifically being D&D, and edition after edition has followed through the years (what is it now, 7th or 8th?).  I had the black box 5th edition and at a glance it seemed like a tongue-in-cheek take on Original D&D, but I didn't keep it long enough to really get in to it...

Absolutely.

On the same note, so does Palladium Fantasy RPG 1e.

What about Arduin?