Been meaning to start this thread, brought on by an exchange in the recent CPRed thread:

Quote from: Jaeger on February 28, 2024, 04:34:31 PM
One of the issues my group and I had was that we felt the exploding d10 mechanic didn't really add anything to the resolution system that a d20, or more probability speaking, something like a d16 would, other than re-rolls at least 20% of the time just to get to the same place.
...

Quote from: S'mon on February 28, 2024, 05:03:04 PM
I've only been running it online and the character sheet does auto rerolls on a 10. I can see it'd be vexing in person, probably best to roll 2d10 of different colours with one being the wild die. I actually really like the results it gives in play. ...

In my opinion; You can get very different perspectives on a RPG system depending on whether a group plays live, vs. through a VTT that automates the game mechanics.

I've really noticed this on other forums with games like WFRP 4e and PF2e.

WFRP 4e: Most of a thread bitching about how they made it overcomplicated with lots of stuff to track, then that one guy jumps in says that everyone is wrong, and the system works great and he likes it's effects.

But when asked he states that he exclusively games via VTT set up for running WFRP4e, and everyone complaining was running live with a home group...

PF2e: Similar situation: In particular I came across a channel that is essentially a PF2e fanboy stream. He runs it exclusively online with a VTT. Most people that complain about it being over complicated, and too much to track on various other forums, primarily play in live home groups.


The reality: VTT's are here to stay.

So many people just find it much easier to get a steady group when the world is your player pool.

But I feel that over time you will see a growing divide in the hobby between those that primarily play via VTT, and those that play live.

I have no idea how pronounced that divide will become, but seeing as how some VTT companies are designing RPG's that take advantage of VTT automation, one is surely coming.

Going the other way; I can see the ubiquity of VTT's inducing a soft limit on the amount of complexity RPG's played live will start to have.

The fallout on the hobby from all this will of course play out over years as VTT's get better.

The tea leaves are murky on this one...

There are certainly systems I would not want to touch without automation, but I despise animation and graphics replacing imagination.

It makes perfect sense that rule heavy games might as well lean into VTT automation for ease of play. Conversely, meat-space games aught not lean much to rules-lite as there are plenty of annoyances that end up contributing to a better macro experience.  Polishing out all the "players complain about it" rough spots does not leave much of a game.

Personally, I would prefer a hybrid where the character sheet is automated and interlinked but the table top representation is omitted.

I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.

Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.

Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.

I find this to be the best of both worlds.

I think we'll begin to see more and more games specifically designed for one or the other.  I know that I designed my system exclusively for live play.  (The initiative system is one that I think would work better on VTT than most systems work there, but even that I designed for live.  Had there been a trade off, I'd have picked the live option.)

In particular, the communication stream is more difficult to manage online.  Sure, having a map and tokens and so forth can help with that, same as it does in person.  However, I suspect that there are some chat-based options that could turn a relative minus into at least a wash, if a game were designed with that in mind.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 13, 2024, 11:32:52 PM
I think we'll begin to see more and more games specifically designed for one or the other.  I know that I designed my system exclusively for live play.  (The initiative system is one that I think would work better on VTT than most systems work there, but even that I designed for live.  Had there been a trade off, I'd have picked the live option.)

In particular, the communication stream is more difficult to manage online.  Sure, having a map and tokens and so forth can help with that, same as it does in person.  However, I suspect that there are some chat-based options that could turn a relative minus into at least a wash, if a game were designed with that in mind.

Please note:  I prefer to play in person and one of the games I run is in person.

But I run Old School Essentials and play in an AD&D 5e game online using Fantasy Grounds.   FG just had an update and now you can do 3d tokes and even have maps in a sudo 3d which looks like a map at a table that you are looking down at and you can have 3d tokens.  So online play is getting much better.

Doesnt and I don't think ti ever will beat in person play.  My group for my OSE game uses a Discord server with channels for discussing in game information, one for scheduling, one that has the map and the descriptions of the different kinddoms and finally a channel for voice play and it works at well.

Saying that, if I can play in person over online, in person wins every time.

I use a digital table top for real play and I use digital tokens for beasts and players and we roll at the table.  I've also used Fantasy Grounds to run for my online games and for online play, Fantasy Grounds makes it easier.  The effects can be a pain to keep on a character but it works well.

Personally, I'd rather have my digital table top playing fantasy ground but have my players at the table to simplify combat and have everyone engaged at the table myself.  It seems to be the best mix.  And the dice roller comes to closest to rolling actual dice I've seen.  Oh god, do not look at the dice roller on D&D Beyond, its like they a 3D animator, gave him a crack colonic and told him to create their dice system.

The OP makes an interesting point.  I like to play and design complicated systems where lots of things matter.  It gives a lot of ways to interact with the game.  On the other hand, I don't like taking a lot of time ti figure out mechanics.  VTT automation seems like an idea solution, you can have the rules depth and quick resolutions.  That's great. 

Another advantage is that the system can be made opaque.  When I'm gaming I want to be thinking in terms of interacting with the imaginary environment, not rolling dice and figuring out where I can get another +1 bonus.  I think my ideal game would be one where I only know the underlying mechanics in a qualitative general sort of way.  VTT allows that.

Some of the other stuff doesn't appeal.  For me, zoom gaming is never going to equal being with friends around the table.  And sketching on a battlemat with a marker is so much faster than using a computer to draw terrain that I wouldn't even consider the latter.

I guess like others said above, I would prefer a partial VTT, with rule automation, but little else

Interesting thread! Yes CP:R is the first game I've run in VTT without running it first tabletop, and there is definitely a perspective shift. The way I think about rules, maps, art/tokens etc is different.

I have a real life group, where we use a relatively simple system, and a VTT group scattered all the way from Boston to Beijing (with me in Indiana).

The VTT group is about to start an Exalted campaign; something I would never even consider touching in real life because rolling buckets of dice (my unaugmented attack is 15 dice and with charms could be up to 25) is about my least favorite thing ever (maybe if they were the tiny d6's so I could actually shake them all in my hands and I colored the success sides so they'd be obvious at a glance it would be tolerable, but standard sized d10's? GAH!).

The automated rolling and a character sheet that lets you plug in all the dice rolling shenanigans of the system so an entire attack is resolved in about three mouse clicks. Still not as fast as rolling a d20 and your damage die together in my live game, but also not torture either.

Yes, there will be a divide, just as there was when MtG was released. And I think it's only a matter of time before a smart designer ditches the whole VTT concept and simply makes a product which more directly caters to this emerging market.

Quote from: Vanadium Angel on March 13, 2024, 11:26:41 PM
I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.

Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.

Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.

I find this to be the best of both worlds.

I've done this as well. My players complained that either A, there was too much glare from the room lights, or if they were lowered, not enough light to see character sheets and dice rolls.

So lately I've been using owlbear rodeo on my 75-inch TV in the living room and giving links to the room. Everyone controls their token from their device.

Have yo ufound a way to reduce glare to such a point that minis are a better option?

Quote from: Godsmonkey on March 14, 2024, 11:37:08 AM

Quote from: Vanadium Angel on March 13, 2024, 11:26:41 PM
I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.

Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.

Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.

I find this to be the best of both worlds.

I've done this as well. My players complained that either A, there was too much glare from the room lights, or if they were lowered, not enough light to see character sheets and dice rolls.

So lately I've been using owlbear rodeo on my 75-inch TV in the living room and giving links to the room. Everyone controls their token from their device.

Have yo ufound a way to reduce glare to such a point that minis are a better option?

I don't have any glare issues, I guess it is due to the type of TV screen and the lights I use, or maybe the angle of the lights.  Nobody has complained so far.  Plus, the players use the online character sheets on Roll20 or DNDBeyond from their tablet or laptop.

My biggest two issues with online/VTT only play is that communication kind of sucks if it is audio only, and IMHO you don't have the same thrills online vs an in-person group.  There is something special about a group sitting around the same table and creating these amazing stories.  Virtual gaming is so artificial by comparison.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on March 14, 2024, 11:37:08 AM

Quote from: Vanadium Angel on March 13, 2024, 11:26:41 PM
I prefer, and play, in-person, but I blend VTT and automated sheets with my games.

Maps are loaded to Roll20, or something similar, and character sheets/rulebooks are PDFs or automated if available.

Maps are then displayed on the 40 inch TV and miniatures (NOT tokens) are used.

I find this to be the best of both worlds.

I've done this as well. My players complained that either A, there was too much glare from the room lights, or if they were lowered, not enough light to see character sheets and dice rolls.

So lately I've been using owlbear rodeo on my 75-inch TV in the living room and giving links to the room. Everyone controls their token from their device.

Have yo ufound a way to reduce glare to such a point that minis are a better option?

The glare problem is not the devices, it's the lighting in your room. No one can help you with that without knowing what that set up looks like.

The important thing to remember about virtual tabletops is that they're a tool. You utilize as much or as little as you want.

There are certainly strengths to using a virtual tabletop to deal with D&D3E, PF2E, or other similar systems. Exalted is another prime candidate, at least for the first two editions. I lost track after that. The downside to those games is that it takes more setup time to load everything into the program, or else you have to pay someone else to do it for you in the form of premium content.

Mostly I use Foundry to host a map with tokens. It's incredibly useful for keeping track of positioning and line of sight, especially for a play-by-post style game. I should use it to track mechanics more than I do for online games. The thing is, at the table the only thing I really need it for is to display a battle map, so I've never bothered to explore its other capabilities.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 14, 2024, 10:05:54 AM
Yes, there will be a divide, just as there was when MtG was released. And I think it's only a matter of time before a smart designer ditches the whole VTT concept and simply makes a product which more directly caters to this emerging market.

"Unreal Engine D&D 6 has joined the chat..."

For real, HASBRO has been absolutely BURNING cash on programmers, artists, and game developers to create EXACTLY this. It will in all likelihood be integrated as an optional premium subscription add-on for D&D Beyond and rolled out to automate just about everything that the GM wants it to up to an including generative dialogue for NPCs when players/PCs interact with them via text speech/prompt.

I'm assuming that it will be rolled out with its own launcher client instead of using the Steam or Epic game launcher so they can avoid having losing money to those platforms. It will eventually end up being rolled out in partnership with Microsoft and Sony to their gaming consoles once they can hammer out halfway usable ports to those systems and the whole thing will play very much like a CRPG where the GM controls the clock, takes place in a kind of group call where you can whisper to individual participants when needed and have a usable but initially feature lacking chat channel system to communicate in text for both IC and OOC chatting.

I expect it to be formally announced by the end of the year and initially launched in some rather barebones fashion sometime in the q4 2025 - q2 2026 timeframe with regular free updates, a GIANT store full of microtransactions (ranging from virtual dice, character emotes, new and exclusive character models, clothing/equipment, as well as allowing for piecemal purchase of RULES elements that you use to build you character), and will have quarterly DLC that coincides with new book releases for the game.