We recently discovered that Shadowrun now has a fourth edition, which came as a surprise to us since the last we heard was about Fasa going out of business.

We are curious -- is Shadowrun improved at all?  While we love the setting, and long for our own smartgun link and twinked out cybereyes, we hated the Shadowrun dice pool system.  We are most interested if any improvements have been made on the dice mechanics, but we would like to hear any details on it.

Most of 3rd edition wasn't put out by Fasa either.

Shadowrun 4th edition is a cleaned up and stripped down version so far.  It has a simpler mechanic overall and they removed a lot of the long standing major issues.  But as always with a new version of SR, they created some new ones too.  Stats got an overhall, and dice pools are now a combination of two items, typically skill + stat with a base target number of 5, and each 5-6 counting as a hit.  And it's about number of hits rather than highest hit.

Quickness and Intelligence were split into Reaction, Agility, Intuitition, and Logic, which is a better switch overall.  Another new attribute called Edge, and related to the old Karma Pool has also been added.

It has the same feel as previous editions, but some of the more unique flavor has been washed out.  The major change is a move from the Matrix with decks to a VR matrix that most people access wirelessly.

It's set roughly 8 years in the future and is decent so far.  If you have other specific questions I'll gladly answer.

Quote from: JanosMost of 3rd edition wasn't put out by Fasa either.

We did not realize that.  We were distracted by the shiny new edition of D&D.

Quote from: JanosShadowrun 4th edition is a cleaned up and stripped down version so far.  It has a simpler mechanic overall and they removed a lot of the long standing major issues.  But as always with a new version of SR, they created some new ones too.  Stats got an overhall, and dice pools are now a combination of two items, typically skill + stat with a base target number of 5, and each 5-6 counting as a hit.  And it's about number of hits rather than highest hit.

Are target numbers fixed, or do they still have modifiers?  We remember the target number system of older editions without fondness.

Quote from: JanosQuickness and Intelligence were split into Reaction, Agility, Intuitition, and Logic, which is a better switch overall.  Another new attribute called Edge, and related to the old Karma Pool has also been added.

How many attributes do they have in all now?

Quote from: JanosIt has the same feel as previous editions, but some of the more unique flavor has been washed out.  The major change is a move from the Matrix with decks to a VR matrix that most people access wirelessly.

We also remember the old decking rules without fondness.  We remember the game screeching to a halt, with no one (including the decker) having any fun.

Quote from: JanosIt's set roughly 8 years in the future and is decent so far.  If you have other specific questions I'll gladly answer.

How do they do character generation now?  We remember how odd it felt to always pick money as the first option, even with mages.

Are smartgun links, wired reflexes, and cybereyes with magnification still required items?  Even our shaman had them.  No character could survive without target number reducers and at least +1d6 on initiative.

Quote from: RedcapAre target numbers fixed, or do they still have modifiers?  We remember the target number system of older editions without fondness.

It is similar to Exalted or the new World of Darkness, except with d6es instead of d10s. The target number for the dice is fixed at 5, changes in difficulty is handled via dice pool modifiers and/or threshold modifiers (threshold = how many hits (= successes) you need).

QuoteHow many attributes do they have in all now?

9 attributes that everyone has: Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, Charisma, Intuition, Logic, Willpower, and Edge (the latter being the "luck" stat). There are also two more stats that only some people have: Magic and Resonance (I haven't read all the hacking stuff, but Resonance is the important stat for Technomancers, who are strange people who can somehow connect to computers and hack without technological interfaces). One notable change for Magic, by the way: it is now bought up like any other stat, rather than starting at 6 automatically (you still get the same penalty to it as you do to Essence).

QuoteWe also remember the old decking rules without fondness.  We remember the game screeching to a halt, with no one (including the decker) having any fun.

It seems that hacking is more integrated into the runs themselves, and usually the best place to do hacking is right inside the structure you're trying to infiltrate (e.g. hacking into local surveillance cameras in order to find out where the guards are). Since pretty much everything is wireless, you can also hack into people's personal computers that they carry around, thereby finding out more information about your Mr. Johnson and other people.

QuoteHow do they do character generation now?  We remember how odd it felt to always pick money as the first option, even with mages.

You get a pool of points (400 being the default) to spend on stuff. I'm told it's similar to the system in Shadowrun Companion, though not having used that I can't tell. Stuff you spend points on:
Race - 0 for human, 20 for ork, 25 for dwarf, 30 for elf, and 40 for troll).
Stats - 10 per point above the racial minimum, 25 for the racial maximum point (so a human (min 1/max 6) would pay 65 for any stat at 6: 40 for increasing it from 1 to 5, and then 25 more for the 6). You can't spend more than 200 points here, and you can only have one stat of the base 8 at its racial max (a magician or technomancer could have magic/resonance at max in addition to one other, and anyone could have both one base stat and Edge at max)
Skills - 4 points per skill rating in active skills. You can also buy skill groups for 10 points per rating (e.g. Firearms, which includes Pistols, Longarms, and Automatics). You can buy any number of skills up to 4, and either two to 5 or one to 6. Skill groups can't be raised above 4. You also get a bunch of free points to spend on Knowledge skills and Languages.
Qualities - Basically the advantages/disadvantages part of the SR4 system. You can't spend more than 35 points on ads, and you can't get more than 35 points from disads. Positive Qualities include things like Magician (15 points - if you think that's cheap, remember that you also have to buy up your Magic stat), Exceptional Attribute (20 points, increase racial stat max by 1), Mentor Spirit (5 BP, lets you choose a mentor spirit giving advantages/disadvantages similar to the shamanic totems of older editions), and many others; and Negative Qualities include things like Addictions, Allergies, being an Elf Poser, or having a real SIN (as opposed to a fake one that you get on the black market).
Gear - 5,000 nuyen per point, max 50 points.
Magic stuff - 3 BP per spell known. You no longer know spells at a specific Force rating, you can cast them at any force rating you want (if you're willing to have your brain ooze out through your ears that is). You can also buy bound spirits, foci, and stuff like that.
Contacts - Each contact has two ratings: Connection (how useful it is) and Loyalty (how easy it is to use). The cost is simply the sum of these two.

QuoteAre smartgun links, wired reflexes, and cybereyes with magnification still required items?  Even our shaman had them.  No character could survive without target number reducers and at least +1d6 on initiative.

I haven't played it, so I wouldn't know. I did note that there were several ways of getting initiative enhancers: wired reflexes are the cheapest, but you can also get the bioware equivalent, a spell with a "make permanent" focus, or the Adept ability. Since target numbers don't exist any longer, I imagine that it would be easier to compensate for the lack of smartgun links with raw skill. I don't know how well-designed the archetypes are, but only two of them have Wired Reflexes (plus one adept with their version).

Quote from: DackeI haven't played it, so I wouldn't know. I did note that there were several ways of getting initiative enhancers: wired reflexes are the cheapest, but you can also get the bioware equivalent, a spell with a "make permanent" focus, or the Adept ability. Since target numbers don't exist any longer, I imagine that it would be easier to compensate for the lack of smartgun links with raw skill. I don't know how well-designed the archetypes are, but only two of them have Wired Reflexes (plus one adept with their version).

Good summary Dacke.

Some form of wired reflexes is still required.  Adepts and Mages always had their own way of getting them, and that is still the case really.

Smartguns and Laser Sights add dice to your pool for those tests, or reduce the number of hits needed I forget which off the top of my head.  They're still needed but Smartgun isn't as overpowering as it once was, so Laser Sights can do the trick.

A lot of what were small bonuses before don't exist any longer to simplify things.

Shamans and Mages are nearly identical now with just one pool of spirit types.  Any caster can purchase a mentor spirit that gave bonuses like a totem, and the major difference between them now are which two stats they roll to resist drain.  Shamans use charisma, Mages use logic.  The magic system can be used to duplicate just about any of the old magic types, but has a more generic feel to it.

Resonance and Technomancers are the replacements for Otaku, they just have a new name.

Vehicle combat has been fixed on many levels, healing is a bit faster, and you have a significantly higher damage threshold overall.

Character generation is identical to the old SR Companion rules, the point costs were kept pretty consistent, but a few tweaks happened overall to account for the new determination mechanic.  Wealth has also been scaled down quite a bit.

Unfortunately they added complexity with the wireless matrix aspect, as every character's wireless matrix port that does a lot of routine tasks has to have several ratings associated with it akin to old Deck attributes.

They also added a ton of new skills to concepts like Hackers, Mages, and Technomancers, meaning that all characters are very skill heavy now.  This is good for the most part, but they don’t really compensate special characters and it costs extra points to be special, meaning your average mage has as many skills as a regular character, but they’re going to be much lower on average.

They also have a lot of “starting cap” rules in place so that runners really do start out as rookies now.

system is a bit more lethal, and they put caps on character creation to lower the bar abit, and over all its pretty damn cool, they took stuff from each version of the game and made it good.  you can bring back yoru burned out mages cause spells work old school...its all very cool

Quote from: Reefer Madnesssystem is a bit more lethal

We've actually found just the opposite.  Despite relatively higher pools, combat is much less leathal than it used to be, and between armor converting a lot of damage into stun, and higher damage totals overall, you're much tougher than you used to be.

So it is safe to say we could not start out with a Troll street samurai with diamond tipped arrow that can shoot and kill tanks?  We enjoyed abusing the old rules, but we always knew they were very whacked.

Quote from: RedcapSo it is safe to say we could not start out with a Troll street samurai with diamond tipped arrow that can shoot and kill tanks?  We enjoyed abusing the old rules, but we always knew they were very whacked.

Unfortunately Troll Twinks function almost identically and all use bows.  Bows remain one of those things they didn't adjust at all.  Adepts took a hit overall though, so it's tougher to make the disgustingly sick Strength Boosted trolls you used to by twinking out the Ability Boost power.

Hi.

I'm not sure if you've seen it, but in the other SR thread I posted an indepth summary of the changes.

Quote from: JongWKHi.

I'm not sure if you've seen it, but in the other SR thread I posted an indepth summary of the changes.

Got Link?  I've also put up some comments lower down in that thread.

Incidentally a bowman Troll (or Orc) with torqued Str and a bow with matched draw weight can still cause massive damage and has armor penatration similar to the new interation of the Panther Assult Cannon or a sniper rifle with their best ammo. Maximum ranges is nearly that of a sniper rifle too. :hitrock:

Of course rating 6 is still the maximum any equipment a character can start with, and a STR 6 bow results in sort of sane numbers. All round roughly equivalent numbers to an AR using semi-auto fire. Ok, so the range isn't really than sane. But it's playable.

On a related note the SR4 rules book now comes in hardcover only, and as such can leave quite the welt on the forehead of a player that asks to purchase a STR 15 drawweight bow. :axe:


On deadliness, I think I mentioned it in that thread, but basically it is much easier to get hurt but in the end less likely that you'll die from just one or two injuries.