Quote from: estar;367969Bah you are all playing wimpy MMORPGs. Nothing beats the original Ultima Online for sheer brutality. Player Killing anytime anywhere (well except in town but only because the guards will beat you to a pulp).

Meh, I'd rather be wimpy. I don't have enough time to devote to MMOs to play simply to provide griefers with entertainment.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;367991havuing never reached the endgame in any mmo, im not exactly sure how they are supposed to work. Surely once you've hit the level cap there can't be much more incentive to play since you are maxxed out. You don't get more xp and thus more abilities, so...what?

In WoW it's gear, bragging rights and toys. My dwarf hunter is lvl 80 and is geared enough for Ulduar but still can't afford the motorcycle mount, even though he can make the damn thing himself. The parts needing to be purchased alone cost 12k gold.

Quote from: Sweeney;368082Most endgame content in MMOs is designed for large groups (10-25 players). So independent of the actual difficulty of the content, you've got the minigame of keeping a dozen or two people motivated and interested, getting them to show up ready and on time, and putting out fires when one drama prince or princess picks a fight with another over voicechat.

It's basically the worst elements you can think of of trying to have a gigantic D&D game in the basement of your college dorm, if you had to pad out your group with people walking by on the street.

But as far as being "maxed out", in something like EQ or WOW the power level of your character continues to rise as you get better and better items, so really you're still "leveling" it's just through gear upgrades. Again, though, unless you're willing to do the guild thing, said upgrades rapidly get you to the point that anything you'd do outside of a raid is trivial.

On top of all this, for WoW there's also all the Battleground PvP content that can be enjoyed, plus now there's achievement chasing.

Quote from: Sigmund;368089On top of all this, for WoW there's also all the Battleground PvP content that can be enjoyed, plus now there's achievement chasing.

ah yes, we haven't mentioned pvp.

i tried it once because it sounded like fun. I still think it's a good idea for a game to have, though lotro's skirmish mode is far superior if overwhelming.

However unless you are prepared to comit to playing the pvp game there is NO FUCKING WAY you have a hope in heckity bollocks of suriving more than 2 seconds in any arena. This of course is compounded by all the people who don't work together.

Twinks ahoy.

Though perhaps at the endgame stage you might have the tools to go into pvp mode since you are at the upper limit and then it's just a matter of getting all the right gear.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368112ah yes, we haven't mentioned pvp.

i tried it once because it sounded like fun. I still think it's a good idea for a game to have, though lotro's skirmish mode is far superior if overwhelming.

However unless you are prepared to comit to playing the pvp game there is NO FUCKING WAY you have a hope in heckity bollocks of suriving more than 2 seconds in any arena. This of course is compounded by all the people who don't work together.

Twinks ahoy.

Though perhaps at the endgame stage you might have the tools to go into pvp mode since you are at the upper limit and then it's just a matter of getting all the right gear.

Yup - doesn't that sound fun?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368112ah yes, we haven't mentioned pvp.

i tried it once because it sounded like fun. I still think it's a good idea for a game to have, though lotro's skirmish mode is far superior if overwhelming.

However unless you are prepared to comit to playing the pvp game there is NO FUCKING WAY you have a hope in heckity bollocks of suriving more than 2 seconds in any arena. This of course is compounded by all the people who don't work together.

Twinks ahoy.

Though perhaps at the endgame stage you might have the tools to go into pvp mode since you are at the upper limit and then it's just a matter of getting all the right gear.

How geared you need to be also depends on the class. My hunter, while never at the top of the dps scores in pvp, and certainly in for geting killed many times in a BG, still can survive long enough to at least have some fun He has no resilience, but he's still geared for Ulduar, so he hits pretty hard unless what he's shooting at has loads of resilience, and because he's survival spec I sometimes get folks going after his pet first, not understanding that unlike BM specs very little of his dps depends on his pet Now my warlock, I just can't pvp with locks.... rogues gank me constantly in BGs with the lock. My druid also does pretty well in feral spec, but none of my toons are optimized for pvp. Mainly it's just for achievements.

These online games sound rather repetitive and dull. Where's the adventure, the creativity?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;368146These online games sound rather repetitive and dull. Where's the adventure, the creativity?

I'm very fortunate in that while I enjoy adventure and creativity, I don't require them in order to be entertained. An element of exploration and discovery combined with the challenge of coordinating with others in order to accomplish a goal also provide me with entertainment. Sorry you can't join us.

Quote from: Sigmund;368145How geared you need to be also depends on the class. My hunter, while never at the top of the dps scores in pvp, and certainly in for geting killed many times in a BG, still can survive long enough to at least have some fun He has no resilience, but he's still geared for Ulduar, so he hits pretty hard unless what he's shooting at has loads of resilience, and because he's survival spec I sometimes get folks going after his pet first, not understanding that unlike BM specs very little of his dps depends on his pet Now my warlock, I just can't pvp with locks.... rogues gank me constantly in BGs with the lock. My druid also does pretty well in feral spec, but none of my toons are optimized for pvp. Mainly it's just for achievements.

I'd say how geared you have to be is dependent on who you play against. Just look at how much even low level gear goes for on the auction house to see the twinks at work. It is a bit sad. A shame they couldnt institute a mode where people's gear is levelled out. Then we'll see a true test of teamwork/skill. Of course that won't happen.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368189I'd say how geared you have to be is dependent on who you play against. Just look at how much even low level gear goes for on the auction house to see the twinks at work. It is a bit sad. A shame they couldnt institute a mode where people's gear is levelled out. Then we'll see a true test of teamwork/skill. Of course that won't happen.

Honestly, I just didn't see that much of a problem with this. I did the Arathi Highlands BG at 39 and did just fine. Sure, I wasn't getting the stats of the hardcore BG players but that wasn't my goal, and I wasn't getting killed every couple seconds either. Plus, honestly, even low level twink gear is not expensive at all, except for the absolutely rarest shit, and really, who needs that? Even a non-geared 80 can make decent gold running dailies..... I'd make easily a few hundred gold in less than an hour. Plus, now you can accumulate champion badges at the tournament and buy heirloom gear to twink your own low levels, my druid is using some heirloom gear because it gives xp bonuses for leveling. Still, back when my hunter was running Arathi he was my highest toon and still had fun in the BG, just gotta realize that you are gonna get killed... alot. It can still be fun though. If you play Horde you will see loads more teamwork in BGs, which is why, at least when I was playing, horde won BGs alot more often than allies.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;368146These online games sound rather repetitive and dull. Where's the adventure, the creativity?

Well, so far in Star Trek I have resuced the crew of a stricken freighter from Orion pirates, unmasked a member of Species 8472 masquerading as a Vulcan ambassador (during a running gun battle with Klingons who had taken over a Vulcan monestary), helped fight off a major attack on Starbase 24, explored several star systems looking for trilithium (while fighting off more Klingons) and designed my own alien race, from their appearance to the perks and special abilities they have (admittedly, not an ENTIRE race, just my Captain, but still...). Also fought a handful of Borg during the "training" part of the game. There's more, but that's what stands out so far.

Also, I designed my own uniforms.

Then again, I know that EVENTUALLY it'll turn into a grind-fest, but I'm cool with that. It is the journey, after all, not the destination.

Quote from: Sigmund;368196Honestly, I just didn't see that much of a problem with this. I did the Arathi Highlands BG at 39 and did just fine. Sure, I wasn't getting the stats of the hardcore BG players but that wasn't my goal, and I wasn't getting killed every couple seconds either. Plus, honestly, even low level twink gear is not expensive at all, except for the absolutely rarest shit, and really, who needs that? Even a non-geared 80 can make decent gold running dailies..... I'd make easily a few hundred gold in less than an hour. Plus, now you can accumulate champion badges at the tournament and buy heirloom gear to twink your own low levels, my druid is using some heirloom gear because it gives xp bonuses for leveling. Still, back when my hunter was running Arathi he was my highest toon and still had fun in the BG, just gotta realize that you are gonna get killed... alot. It can still be fun though. If you play Horde you will see loads more teamwork in BGs, which is why, at least when I was playing, horde won BGs alot more often than allies.

I'm not really coimplaining; i play wow fully expectant to not involve myself in pvp. But i would say that pvp and pve wow are almost two totally different games. You cannot take a pve character into pvp and reasonably expect to do that well, not without some serious work. That's fine if that's what you want, but it's not really for me. I may in the future get bored of pve (i much prefer pve anyway) and try a pvp character full guns blazing, but it would be nice if the two forms of wow could be more integrated. Thus your azeroth adventuring toon has more backstory to his pvp, which is ultimately what it's about. The pvp reflects the conflict inherent in the setting.

I know plenty of people ship gear/money between alts. I do it myself, but then it took a while to convince myself that wasn't 'cheating' (it isn't, but it somehow just didn't seem right to me).

Quote from: Werekoala;368222Then again, I know that EVENTUALLY it'll turn into a grind-fest, but I'm cool with that. It is the journey, after all, not the destination.

A great philosophy to live by.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;368232I'm not really coimplaining; i play wow fully expectant to not involve myself in pvp. But i would say that pvp and pve wow are almost two totally different games. You cannot take a pve character into pvp and reasonably expect to do that well, not without some serious work. That's fine if that's what you want, but it's not really for me. I may in the future get bored of pve (i much prefer pve anyway) and try a pvp character full guns blazing, but it would be nice if the two forms of wow could be more integrated. Thus your azeroth adventuring toon has more backstory to his pvp, which is ultimately what it's about. The pvp reflects the conflict inherent in the setting.

I know plenty of people ship gear/money between alts. I do it myself, but then it took a while to convince myself that wasn't 'cheating' (it isn't, but it somehow just didn't seem right to me).

Oh no, I'm with ya. Personally, I almost always hate PvP. I never gear my toons for PvP. BGs are just fun sometimes when I'm bored running dailies or waiting for guildies to get on for instances/raids. Plus, to get the "Chef" title, ya have to lay down a feast in every BG. Stuff like that. I'm very very far from a good PvP player. Just saying depending on your class it isn't all that bad to do without being super PvP geared. Plus, I really found it much more fun while playing the Horde side. If I were to get back into the game now, I'd most likely switch my hunter over to Horde.