I'm going to push back a bit. AW might say "make the world feel real" but most of the PBTA advice (in and outside the book) is to constantly build stuff by "turning questions back on players" - so players are at the table constantly making everything up that they're then interacting with. This is not a recipe for feeling like you're in a world you didn't just create 2 seconds ago.

True, but only for the First Session, which is a kind of "session 0" where players brainstorm their slice of the world collaboratively. Once the ball starts rolling, there's no "the world was created 2 seconds ago" anymore. It's all on the GMs hands.

Are you sure? On "Fear of a Black Dragon" and other podcasts, along with one of the listed GM moves of Apocalypse World, is "turn questions back on the players." When I played Masks with the creator it was 99% us having to invent stuff that we then dealt with.

Why is it so fucking hard for people to admit storygames aren't rpgs?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1099115Are you sure? On "Fear of a Black Dragon" and other podcasts, along with one of the listed GM moves of Apocalypse World, is "turn questions back on the players." When I played Masks with the creator it was 99% us having to invent stuff that we then dealt with.

The principle you want is "Ask provocative questions and build on the answers", which purpose is to fill out each PC slice of the world, background, activities or feels etc. So this is good:

Hey Fighter, where did you get that sword? Is it a heirloom? How did you learn to use it? Who taught you? Did you make any rivals in the process? Where are they now? How is this land that you came from? Where is it on the map? Tell us some quirks of it's people? Did you use to raid trader caravans then? Do those caravans routes stilk exist? Can you point them on the map? Etc.

But this is not good:

Ok Fighter, you succeed in breaking the door down, what's behind it? Or, hey Rogue you succeed in sneaking behind the guards chatting about a safe, why don't you tell us where the safe is? Oh, right below Jerry on the floor? Cool.

In other words, the process is not really different from what lots of groups have been doing since ever for collaboratively creating a world together ( I know I did it in GURPS and Runequest well before AW even existed ). It's usually done in the first sessions of arcs or campaigns and is great for providing interesting stuff/hooks/seeds for the group to tap later on, make the world more vivid and colorful, and to provoke player investment (since they're creating it themselves). It's not intended to turn things into some improvising story-telling world-editing game where you create things to change "2 seconds later" or something. This isn't Fiasco or Baron Munchausen. Otherwise it would contradict it's very agenda of "make the world feel real" as you said.

Of course, every group will set these dials to their preferences. Some will prefer asking those questions only at the first session, as instructed in AW text, while others will do it with greater frequency (and in the case of one-shots specifically this may feel more blatant since there isn't a "First session" to brainstorm stuff). But again, there's nothing new here for a group that played in their own collaboratively created worlds before.

Quote from: Itachi;1099148The principle you want is "Ask provocative questions and build on the answers", which purpose is to fill out each PC slice of the world, background, activities or feels etc. So this is good:

Hey Fighter, where did you get that sword? Is it a heirloom? How did you learn to use it? Who taught you? Did you make any rivals in the process? Where are they now? How is this land that you came from? Where is it on the map? Tell us some quirks of it's people? Did you use to raid trader caravans then? Do those caravans routes stilk exist? Can you point them on the map? Etc.

Let's please stick to the subject.

So how would this look like in a trad game? The direct equivalent is background generation for characters in a trad game. There are some difference however, let's have a look:

"Hey Fighter, where did you get that sword? Is it a heirloom?" - This is something that would most likely be determined between chargen and start of play by the player. (Or glossed over.)
"How did you learn to use it? Who taught you? Did you make any rivals in the process?" - Dito.
"Where are they now?" - Now this is something that typically the GM would determine as the PC probably would have no knowledge where they are, only when they saw that rival last.
"How is this land that you came from? Where is it on the map? Tell us some quirks of it's people?" - Again, in a trad game, it's the GM's job to deliver fresh world content for the players to discover and interface with in actual play.
"Did you use to raid trader caravans then?" - This is one of the normal background generation items.
"Do those caravans routes stilk exist? Can you point them on the map?" - And this is back to world generation that normally is the purview of the GM (or game designer).

This is a shift that naturally not every role-player will like. Plenty of us want to discover an alien world, not make it up ourselves, except for minor elements like a rival. It's simply less adventurous to do so.

So you're saying shared world creation is not a trad thing. Interesting, I will have to look into my Ars Magica, Gurps and Runequest/BRP books, because we do that since ever in those games, and I doubt we invented the concept.

Anyway, Fate Core, Smallville, Mutant Y0/Tales from the Loop, Ryuutama and Beyond the Wall are other recent games that do that, so even if it isn't a traditional practice, it's far from being exclusive to Apocalypse World. (EDIT: they could have been influenced by AW though, I don't know, would have to check their release dates and authors notes to find out)

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;1099034Without derailing the discussion, and as it is PbtA related: Kult. Is it worth picking up the new edition or should I stick with the one I have from the 90s (and use a separate system to run it maybe)?

Apart from the new pretty pictures what does PbtA offer/do rhat I couldn't with a nWoD/ST or CoC/BRP port?

Didn't read the new edition yet, but heard good things about it. PbtA is usually good at pushing play towards the game's central themes, and considering the original rules are notorious bad at that, it seems a clear advantage. OTOH, PbtA is far from transparent or unobtrusive: it will make itself felt at the table and in a acute way (just like D&D really). So if it bothers you at some level you probably won't grok it.

Quote from: Itachi;1099166So you're saying shared world creation is not a trad thing. Interesting, I will have to look into my Ars Magica, Gurps and Runequest/BRP books, because we do that since ever in those games, and I doubt we invented the concept.

Anyway, Fate Core, Smallville, Mutant Y0/Tales from the Loop, Ryuutama and Beyond the Wall are other recent games that do that, so even if it isn't a traditional practice, it's far from being exclusive to Apocalypse World. (EDIT: they could have been influenced by AW though, I don't know, would have to check their release dates and authors notes to find out)

The assertion is not that it can never happen in trad games. The statement is that it's not typical for trad games. For details as to why, I'll refer you over to the first part of that blogpost here.

Quote from: Itachi;1099148The principle you want is "Ask provocative questions and build on the answers", which purpose is to fill out each PC slice of the world, background, activities or feels etc. So this is good:

Back in the late 80s I would agree that this is ideal that everybody should strive for. I now know it is a preference. A lot of players perhaps most players are not interested in this level of detail, find it boring as hell, and more seriously making them deal with it lessen the enjoyment of the game.

Quote from: Itachi;1099148Of course, every group will set these dials to their preferences. Some will prefer asking those questions only at the first session, as instructed in AW text, while others will do it with greater frequency (and in the case of one-shots specifically this may feel more blatant since there isn't a "First session" to brainstorm stuff). But again, there's nothing new here for a group that played in their own collaboratively created worlds before.

Same here since I started referee circa 1979, I was always open to the input of players about what "ought" to be or adding details so something what we are doing. The problem occurred when I started mandating this kind of stuff. The whole shared worldbuilding thing is a variation of the issue surrounding writing character backgrounds. And experience as shown me that only a minority like writing character backgrounds. A substantial minority to be sure. But most just want to describe things in a couple of sentences, if that, and get on with the game.

Which is why RPGs that enshrine this as a central mechanics will be remain in a niche.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1099168The assertion is not that it can never happen in trad games. The statement is that it's not typical for trad games. For details as to why, I'll refer you over to the first part of that blogpost here.

It typical it just not handled formally in the mechanics.

Trad games usually come with a fixed setting for the players to explore. Shadowrun, CoC, Harn, MERP, Cyberpunk 2020,TORG, RIFTS, Vampire, Dark Albion, you name it.
So, yeah, shared world creation other than the limited stuff for character background that I outlined above seems to be atypical for trad games. And I submit that the ire that this draws from a lot of trad gamers as evidence in support of the assertion.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1099194Trad games usually come with a fixed setting for the players to explore. Shadowrun, CoC, Harn, MERP, Cyberpunk 2020,TORG, RIFTS, Vampire, Dark Albion, you name it.
So, yeah, shared world creation other than the limited stuff for character background that I outlined above seems to be atypical for trad games. And I submit that the ire that this draws from a lot of trad gamers as evidence in support of the assertion.

I think this post pretty much proves you've never actually played an RPG before. The only "ire" being expressed is by people who think you're just disingenuous about how they play their games.

The only thing that is being demonstrated is your launching another ad hominem argument. If you got anything worthwhile to say though, let's hear it.

I don't think Alexander meant to offend or diminish anyone with that comment, but simply point out that some those practices and styles are.. sensitive, to some folks around here (which is true IMO). Mr. Kalinowski has been a gentleman so far.

Let's not spoil this fine discussion, folks.