It's a few months old, but somehow I missed this. If this has been posted already, my apologies!
If only certain people associated with this hobby could take a more rational approach to the issue...then perhaps it wouldn't be an issue? But maybe that's the point.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/checkpoints/202004/no-orcs-arent-racist (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/checkpoints/202004/no-orcs-arent-racist)
Where to begin? This isn't a global problem...
Frankly this is part of a harassment campaign against whites.
Orcs aren't racist but the accusation is.
They're not genuinely offended, they're giving whites a hard time any way they can and are taking advantage of white guilt to do it. Although, to be fair, some of them are probably just bullies who like pushing people around in general and don't have an anti-white axe to grind but recognize an easy target.
1) I don't need a psychologist to tell me Orcs aren't black people. Orcs AREN'T REAL. If you are a retard and believe Orcs are stand-in's for black people at your table, and you enjoy killing Orcs because they're stand-ins for black people whom you pretend to hate: You're doing it wrong on so many conceivable idiotic levels, you're more of a threat to yourself than anyone else. Someone this fucking stupid is just as likely to drown themselves brushing their teeth or blinding themselves permanently eating with a fork as hurting someone elese.
2) This has nothing to do with racism and has everything to do with deconstructing all sub-cultures on the way to deconstructing western culture itself.
Eye on the ball.
Dwarves are Jews! Because they love gold and axes!
The French are all Elves! Because they can't get enough wine and swords!
Halflings are from Belgium! Or the Ivory Coast! Because chocolate! Racist chocolate!
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
I posted that article a couple times over at enw. One person brought up the author's white-maleness.
Well, if you're hunting for witches and have a flexible definition, you get to burn more witches.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1141140Dwarves are Jews! Because they love gold and axes!
The French are all Elves! Because they can't get enough wine and swords!
Halflings are from Belgium! Or the Ivory Coast! Because chocolate! Racist chocolate!
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
Or Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs are Jews
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Quote from: Mercurius;1141143I posted that article a couple times over at enw. One person brought up the author's white-maleness.
So I guess that means more chance of the author using objective, rational linear thinking if I remember the training protocol correctly.
Quote from: Mr_X;1141130Frankly this is part of a harassment campaign against whites.
Albeit most of the harassers are whites.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1141145Or Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs are Jews
Them Jews are always hoarding warpstone for their beloved cannons!
No other ethnic group behaves like that.
But that's also why Squats were taken out of 40k because GW hates Jews.
Wow. This enlightened critical theory stuff is easier than I thought! Who knew you could just whip it out of your ass without the slightest shred of credibility?
Quote from: Mercurius;1141143I posted that article a couple times over at enw. One person brought up the author's white-maleness.
The only access to truth is through the authentic lived experience of marginalised people
How do you tell the difference between authentic and inauthentic lived experience? You know because authentic experience aligns with scripture. Wait? Did I say scripture? Obviously I meant theory. It aligns with theory.
So obviously the way to answer the question are Orcs racist is to keep asking marginalised people until you find one to give you the answer you've already decided is the correct one. Of course if you are a marginalised person then you can just save time by asking yourself.
If white people say anything else then it's obviously because they themselves are racist. If a marginalised person gives you an inauthentic answer then it's because they've internalised the racism against them.
In short we don't need good arguments about why Orcs are not racist. It's about as fruitful as trying to reason with that guy waving the bible on the street corner and screaming that's everyone's going to hell.
We're dealing with a religion. Want we need is not debate, but the enforcement of secular boundaries.
Quote from: Lord Dynel;1141113If only certain people associated with this hobby could take a more rational approach to the issue...then perhaps it wouldn't be an issue? But maybe that's the point.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/checkpoints/202004/no-orcs-arent-racist (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/checkpoints/202004/no-orcs-arent-racist)
Holy Gross Conceptual Errors, Batman....
Quote from: TJS;1141158The only access to truth is through the authentic lived experience of marginalised people
How do you tell the difference between authentic and inauthentic lived experience? You know because authentic experience aligns with scripture. Wait? Did I say scripture? Obviously I meant theory. It aligns with theory.
So obviously the way to answer the question are Orcs racist is to keep asking marginalised people until you find one to give you the answer you've already decided is the correct one. Of course if you are a marginalised person then you can just save time by asking yourself.
If white people say anything else then it's obviously because they themselves are racist. If a marginalised person gives you an inauthentic answer then it's because they've internalised the racism against them.
In short we don't need good arguments about why Orcs are not racist. It's about as fruitful as trying to reason with that guy waving the bible on the street corner and screaming that's everyone's going to hell.
We're dealing with a religion. Want we need is not debate, but the enforcement of secular boundaries.
Well said. The irony is that Malcolm X warned about the "white liberal" 55 years ago: "The worst enemy that the Negro have is this white man that runs around here drooling at the mouth professing to love Negros and calling himself a liberal, and it is following these white liberals that has perpetuated problems that Negros have. If the Negro wasn't taken, tricked or deceived by the white liberal, then Negros would get together and solve our own problems. I only cite these things to show you that in America, the history of the white liberal has been nothing but a series of trickery designed to make Negros think that the white liberal was going to solve our problems. Our problems will never be solved by the white man."
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1141145Or Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs are Jews
Did they kill Sigmar? Never let them forget it!
Quote from: S'mon;1141153Albeit most of the harassers are whites.
Self-Loathing Whites who are ashamed of their whiteness.
Craziest shit I've ever seen.....
Chaos Dwarves are based on Sumerians, probably with a splash of Hittite.
Hittite Lives Used to Matter
Quote from: TJS;1141158The only access to truth is through the authentic lived experience of marginalised people
How do you tell the difference between authentic and inauthentic lived experience? You know because authentic experience aligns with scripture. Wait? Did I say scripture? Obviously I meant theory. It aligns with theory.
So obviously the way to answer the question are Orcs racist is to keep asking marginalised people until you find one to give you the answer you've already decided is the correct one. Of course if you are a marginalised person then you can just save time by asking yourself.
If white people say anything else then it's obviously because they themselves are racist. If a marginalised person gives you an inauthentic answer then it's because they've internalised the racism against them.
In short we don't need good arguments about why Orcs are not racist. It's about as fruitful as trying to reason with that guy waving the bible on the street corner and screaming that's everyone's going to hell.
We're dealing with a religion. Want we need is not debate, but the enforcement of secular boundaries.
Yes, we're dealing with a religion, but how do you prove to the majority of the public that it is in fact a religion masquerading as science?
Best way is thru debate, with good arguments and make them talk about how the white man is superior etc.
Sad part is they seem to have smarts enough to not engage in debate, so the second best tactic is to take their "arguments" and show how they are the same as the white nationalists.
And this includes topics such as Orcs, Goblins, Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs.
As a matter of fact I think it's here where it's best to argue against their cult's dogma, because it's here where they are at their craziest, and can be shown to be fucking liars.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1141192Chaos Dwarves are based on Sumerians, probably with a splash of Hittite.
Assuming you're correct... So what?
Ideally you'd be right.
Historically you're looking at very very long odds. How much "debating" was done during the Crusades? The Reformation wars? The Muslim conquests? Oh lots of debating. And millions of deaths on the side.
Convincing True Believers willing to fight you over those beliefs rarely sorts itself out through debate.
What I'm about to say is rather philosophical and may trigger a series of schizophrenic episodes in a lot of people. Please proceed only if you think you can handle the truth.
"3/4 of the world have been hiding behind a mask their whole life."
-Felix, J.
Unfortunately many of these people don't know who they're anymore, or if they even were anything other than an extra populating the matrix.
The more I code, the closer I feel I'm getting from understanding existence. To create something from nothing is the only way to become self aware.
I love it that there is a Stetson University. Mental image of all these guys swaggering around in their big JR hats. It sounds like an idea for a Monty Python sketch.
I also love it that my browser is interspersing the article for me with clickbait for a game called KILL THE GOBLIN!
Quote from: tenbones;1141213Ideally you'd be right.
Historically you're looking at very very long odds. How much "debating" was done during the Crusades? The Reformation wars? The Muslim conquests? Oh lots of debating. And millions of deaths on the side.
Convincing True Believers willing to fight you over those beliefs rarely sorts itself out through debate.
How much blood was spilled getting Creationism out of schools?
Take a page (or a dozen) from the Atheist playbook. They paint BLM on the street (doesn't matter if it's taxpayer or private money)? Well now the city has made it part of the public square, so they should allow you to paint All Lives Matter in the same street right next to their dogma.
Demand public funds don't go to schools that teach the non theistic religion of intersectionality/grievance studies/critical "theory".
If they insist it is science, then they have the burden of proof to show exactly how their BS can be falsified. And until they do demand a moratorium on all such courses.
Take their articles and spread them far and wide, take their vids and do debunk after debunk video, make fun of them make them look as the hateful idiots they are.
Of course if some antifart idiot tries to start some BS then all bets are off and you defend yourself.
Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1141214What I'm about to say is rather philosophical and may trigger a series of schizophrenic episodes in a lot of people. Please proceed only if you think you can handle the truth.
"3/4 of the world have been hiding behind a mask their whole life."
-Felix, J.
Unfortunately many of these people don't know who they're anymore, or if they even were anything other than an extra populating the matrix.
The more I code, the closer I feel I'm getting from understanding existence. To create something from nothing is the only way to become self aware.
What are you talking about? Isn't there a Japanese truism that people have six faces and three hearts (metaphor for the thoughts and emotions we show the world)?
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141225What are you talking about? Isn't there a Japanese truism that people have six faces and three hearts (metaphor for the thoughts and emotions we show the world)?
I think that or very similar to it was a line from the Portugese pilot to Blackthorne in Shogun.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141225What are you talking about? Isn't there a Japanese truism that people have six faces and three hearts (metaphor for the thoughts and emotions we show the world)?
Hah crazy how history repeats itself, having thoughts similar to great historians before me.
Quote from: oggsmash;1141231I think that or very similar to it was a line from the Portugese pilot to Blackthorne in Shogun.
How interesting, my ancestors were also Portuguese. Portugal had the greatest navy in the world. And a large majority of crusaders were also Portuguese. Turns out success runs in the genes, huh!?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1141211Yes, we're dealing with a religion, but how do you prove to the majority of the public that it is in fact a religion masquerading as science?
Best way is thru debate, with good arguments and make them talk about how the white man is superior etc.
Sad part is they seem to have smarts enough to not engage in debate, so the second best tactic is to take their "arguments" and show how they are the same as the white nationalists.
And this includes topics such as Orcs, Goblins, Skaven and Chaos Dwarfs.
As a matter of fact I think it's here where it's best to argue against their cult's dogma, because it's here where they are at their craziest, and can be shown to be fucking liars.
Well keeping to Orcs, I think, it would be most helpful to ask them questions like "What harm do you feel is being done by the way Orcs are depicted - and can you explain how this works", also " What would it take to convince you that Orcs are not racist?". Their whole approach is putting people on the defensive. The whole recent argument about Orcs began with a contentless tweet. That tells you what you're dealing with - if it had begun with a well reasoned argument with close reading and analysis then you could respond in kind. So the response needs to avoid beginning on the backfoot. Make them explain themselves.
It's not their arguments you need to reveal, it's the fundamental assumptions that they're built on. Most people are still fairly liberal. Critical Social Justice is profoundly illiberal. The simple truth is that most people are good intentioned and don't know what they're buying into.
The new discourses website, founded by the people who did the grievance studies hoax papers several years ago, recently wrote up a section of advice and a letter template which you can use if your employer wants to make you do diversity training (https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/how-talk-your-employers-about-anti-racism/).
Pointing out how their beliefs are actually racist may also help.
Mocking them may also help. That's a bit of an uphill struggle at the moment, but it wouldn't surprise me if the dam bursts at some stage in society generally. In the case of Orcs it would probably helpful to remind people that D&D is basically a cartoonish game of goodies and baddies and the real problem is taking it and yourself too seriously.
Basically they need to be isolated.
Quote from: TJS;1141299Well keeping to Orcs, I think, it would be most helpful to ask them questions like "What harm do you feel is being done by the way Orcs are depicted - and can you explain how this works", also " What would it take to convince you that Orcs are not racist?". There whole approach is putting people on the defensive. The whole recent argument about Orcs began with a contentless tweet. That tells you what you're dealing with - if it had begun with a well reasoned argument with close reading and analysis then you could respond in kind. So the response needs to avoid beginning on the backfoot. Make them explain themselves.
It's not their arguments you need to reveal, it's the fundamental assumptions that they're built on. Most people are still fairly liberal. Critical Social Justice is profoundly illiberal. The simple truth is that most people are good intentioned and don't know what they're buying into.
The new discourses website, founded by the people who did the grievance studies hoax papers several years ago, recently wrote up a section of advice and a letter template which you can use if your employer wants to make you do diversity training (https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/how-talk-your-employers-about-anti-racism/).
Pointing out how their beliefs are actually racist may also help.
Mocking them may also help. That's a bit of an uphill struggle at the moment, but it wouldn't surprise me if the dam bursts at some stage in society generally. In the case of Orcs it would probably helpful to remind people that D&D is basically a cartoonish game of goodies and baddies and the real problem is taking it and yourself too seriously.
Basically they need to be isolated.
Yep mock them at every step, point at their idiocy and point at the fact that they see Orcs, Goblins, Etc and see Blacks, Jews, etc. Normal people don't do that connection, and by normal I mean not racist.
Exactly why I say it's here (our hobbies) where they are at their craziest (and weakest) and is where we should confront and expose their fundamental beliefs.
And keep on pointing how this Istophobe Panic is nothing else than the Satanic Panic of present day.
It really is.
I started this thread because me and a buddy of mine we're discussing the recent "concerns" that have come to our hobby with the regards of racism (orcs, drow) and stereotyping (alignment) and how really a non-issue he and I think they are. NOT that they aren't issues in the real world...just that they shouldn't be an issue in our games, nor an outlet for these issues and agendas. We were already talking about the agenda that's being pushed in WotC products and how far we feel the hobby is from where it should be – a place where we can get away from real world crap like social injustices, racism, political bulshit, and the like...and just play.
My buddy, fresh off of this conversation, brought it up to his group that evening (the night before last). Part way through the discussion the SJW player in his group logged on to Roll20 and, in the typical "intolerant of any view but their own" fashion, listened for a few seconds before blurting out "If this is the conversation we're going to have all night, I'll just log off!" My buddy replied "Don't worry about it, I'll log out," and promptly did so.
People do need to remember they're playing a game that is 50 years old.
As I think someone else already said in this thread, and as I've said before, our fundamental values really haven't changed as much as the cancellista's like to pretend.
But there are a few things that I don't think would be done now. Drow spring to mind (I found that a bit embarrassing to explain to people in the 90s). But you probably wouldn't just take things from Tolkien whole cloth either.
But the wierd thing is the pardox of insisting on playing a 50 year old game, because of it's lore and tradition, and then constantly complaining about that same thing.
You look at the thread over on rpgnet and it's steeped in D&D lore. Thing's like, maybe Gruumsh can be reworked to be less evil. For Fuck's sake who cares about Gruumsh? Every single one of their proposed alterations is boring and pointless. Just as Gruumsh is really pretty boring - a discount off-brand Odin.
Look at the OSR. Do any of those games need Gruumsh? I imagine they can't use most of the lore because it's not open content, but really that did the OSR a big favour - it freed them to actually be creative. Who cares about the Drow when you could have the Eld from the Hyrda collective?
There was a thread on Rpgnet a while ago about making a retroclone because WOTC not being woke enough. Yes. They should do that. That would actually be a worthwhile use of time. They should stop trying to exert control over something that's not theirs and make something that is.
While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.
If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141378While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.
If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).
I'd say "So you see a mentally deficient misanthropic monsters who steal from and murders people, and you immediately think 'black person?' I need to post what you just said so everyone can stay away from your toxic racism."
Make them live up their own standards and make them eat their own. Claim it's their identifying black people as orcs that means they deserve to unpersoned for their wrongthink and thrown to the SJW cancel-culture mob.
Quote from: Chris24601;1141385I'd say "So you see a mentally deficient misanthropic monsters who steal from and murders people, and you immediately think 'black person?' I need to post what you just said so everyone can stay away from your toxic racism."
Make them live up their own standards and make them eat their own. Claim it's their identifying black people as orcs that means they deserve to unpersoned for their wrongthink and thrown to the SJW cancel-culture mob.
Waste of time.
Point and laugh. Mock them mercilessly. "Other" and ostracize them. Don't take their verbal sewage seriously.
And don't game with them. Don't game where they are welcomed. Take your table elsewhere, and don't let them come anywhere near your table. Actively recruit for your table, and actively exclude them from your table.
Always remember: make
them the outsiders, because that's what they will do to you and to our hobby.
Quote from: TJS;1141375But there are a few things that I don't think would be done now. Drow spring to mind (I found that a bit embarrassing to explain to people in the 90s).
The only thing about the drow that stands out as legitimately problematic, in my view, is the fact that their skin was darkened through cursing. WotC phased that out years ago. Everything else that people complain about--dark skin, evil, matriarchal, BDSM-ish--is fine and doesn't need to be changed.
Quote from: Mercurius;1141455The only thing about the drow that stands out as legitimately problematic, in my view, is the fact that their skin was darkened through cursing. WotC phased that out years ago. Everything else that people complain about--dark skin, evil, matriarchal, BDSM-ish--is fine and doesn't need to be changed.
Why is being cursed to have black skin "legitimately problematic"?
"Black" people in America - or anywhere else
1) Aren't actually BLACK
2) Aren't cursed by god(s)
3) Aren't inherently evil.
Quote from: Mercurius;1141455The only thing about the drow that stands out as legitimately problematic, in my view, is the fact that their skin was darkened through cursing. WotC phased that out years ago. Everything else that people complain about--dark skin, evil, matriarchal, BDSM-ish--is fine and doesn't need to be changed.
Because "matriarchal, BDSM-ish" is too on-point?
I'd don't really care if they're "problematic" or not. (Boy has that become a weasel word).
I just think they're a product of their time, like Erol Otus art, flared trousers, semi-naked barbarian movies, ninjas and putting elves and dwarves in every fantasy setting ever.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141378While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.
If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).
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Quote from: TJS;1141375There was a thread on Rpgnet a while ago about making a retroclone because WOTC not being woke enough. Yes. They should do that. That would actually be a worthwhile use of time. They should stop trying to exert control over something that's not theirs and make something that is.
Of course, they won't because it's not really about what's in the game. Siezing control is what it's really about.
Quote from: TJS;1141299Well keeping to Orcs, I think, it would be most helpful to ask them questions like "What harm do you feel is being done by the way Orcs are depicted - and can you explain how this works", also " What would it take to convince you that Orcs are not racist?". Their whole approach is putting people on the defensive. The whole recent argument about Orcs began with a contentless tweet. That tells you what you're dealing with - if it had begun with a well reasoned argument with close reading and analysis then you could respond in kind. So the response needs to avoid beginning on the backfoot. Make them explain themselves.
It's not their arguments you need to reveal, it's the fundamental assumptions that they're built on. Most people are still fairly liberal. Critical Social Justice is profoundly illiberal. The simple truth is that most people are good intentioned and don't know what they're buying into.
The new discourses website, founded by the people who did the grievance studies hoax papers several years ago, recently wrote up a section of advice and a letter template which you can use if your employer wants to make you do diversity training (https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/how-talk-your-employers-about-anti-racism/).
Pointing out how their beliefs are actually racist may also help.
Mocking them may also help. That's a bit of an uphill struggle at the moment, but it wouldn't surprise me if the dam bursts at some stage in society generally. In the case of Orcs it would probably helpful to remind people that D&D is basically a cartoonish game of goodies and baddies and the real problem is taking it and yourself too seriously.
Basically they need to be isolated.
Spot on.
The problem is many of us retreat for fear of being piled on. The problem I have seen is that on many rpg sites, as soon as common sense starts to win out, the discussion is quickly shut down. People get banned, whatever.
I think it is worth asking these direct questions. Make some explain it. Only then does the absurdity become crystal clear.
So, the depiction or orcs is problematic. What do you think will happen if this depiction is not changed. Then what will happen? How does that work?
I think you are spot on. The key is being able to make these points online and everywhere without being cancelled banned or shot!
Quote from: TJS;1141490Of course, they won't because it's not really about what's in the game. Siezing control is what it's really about.
Greetings!
Very true, TJS! Seizing control is the SJW's whole mission in life.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141378While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.
If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).
Way back a decade ago, I was in a discussion on TBP and it was a dodgy discussion around how sexist Gary Gygax was for having human women having a strength cap lower than a man's, and though I could agree there was no need for such a distinction, we are also talking about a guy who had a very detailed chart showing you how a longsword performed against various armor class types, so I could not say his motivation was sexism and asked if they could explain that point of view to me. got warned, that asking for explanation of a view point was against forum rules, and sure enough there is a forum rule that it is on you to know what is woke enough to discuss and if you do not see immediately how something is -ist, it was verboten to ask for an explanation. Because the good folk there are not there to help, or to educate, they are there to point out the sinner.
Quote from: TJS;1141299Well keeping to Orcs, I think, it would be most helpful to ask them questions like "What harm do you feel is being done by the way Orcs are depicted - and can you explain how this works", also " What would it take to convince you that Orcs are not racist?".
They'll just tell you you're JAQing off.
Quote from: oggsmash;1141498Way back a decade ago, I was in a discussion on TBP and it was a dodgy discussion around how sexist Gary Gygax was for having human women having a strength cap lower than a man's, and though I could agree there was no need for such a distinction, we are also talking about a guy who had a very detailed chart showing you how a longsword performed against various armor class types, so I could not say his motivation was sexism and asked if they could explain that point of view to me. got warned, that asking for explanation of a view point was against forum rules, and sure enough there is a forum rule that it is on you to know what is woke enough to discuss and if you do not see immediately how something is -ist, it was verboten to ask for an explanation. Because the good folk there are not there to help, or to educate, they are there to point out the sinner.
It should be noted that the strength cap didn't survive the jump to 2E, so clearly people looked at it and said 'Look, this is stupid, let's delete this' and agreed to do so.
And I wonder if anyone spoke up about the male halflings? They got capped even further back than the female humans did (17, vs the female human's cap of 18/50). Or for that matter, monks (who got capped at 15).
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1141222How much blood was spilled getting Creationism out of schools?
Take a page (or a dozen) from the Atheist playbook. They paint BLM on the street (doesn't matter if it's taxpayer or private money)? Well now the city has made it part of the public square, so they should allow you to paint All Lives Matter in the same street right next to their dogma.
Demand public funds don't go to schools that teach the non theistic religion of intersectionality/grievance studies/critical "theory".
If they insist it is science, then they have the burden of proof to show exactly how their BS can be falsified. And until they do demand a moratorium on all such courses.
Take their articles and spread them far and wide, take their vids and do debunk after debunk video, make fun of them make them look as the hateful idiots they are.
Of course if some antifart idiot tries to start some BS then all bets are off and you defend yourself.
What got creationism out of schools was not debate, but relentless mockery triggering an emotional response to make it stop, plus blacklisting anyone out of education who didn't conform
Whenever opposed, the opposition must be taken as they are. Not as they "should". Debate is what many people think "should" work. Because that's what would work to convince the person making the statement. It's also the approach taken by the losing side in a conflict, in most historical conflicts
Conflict is emotion. It is not reason. Reason does not defuse conflict, except if the emotion driving it is resolved first.
Reason definitely does not work with a 3rd party as persuasion when two different parties are appealing to the 3rd party, and one is using emotion primarily in a situation of some emotional leverage. Everyone, if they think back on their own individual interpersonal experiences, should know this to be true based on your own outcomes where reason failed to move the needle.
That's a good point, but I will note that "Internet debates", while directly pointless, sometimes work sideways. You typically can't convince someone whose mind is already set, but you can make a good case for third parties, who might be persuaded. For this reason, it is not always as much of a waste as it can sometimes appear. Play for the crowd, not the other guy in the ring. Especially if that guy cheats or fights dirty, which is usually the case with SJW types.
Nearly everyone on both sides is responding to emotion, even if framing in reason. You can directly trace the stridency in opposition to the other sides arguments with how close to home they began to hit. None of these progressive talking points are recent or new. The reaction to them by the other side, however, has changed as they've come threateningly closer to their preferred identities.
Debate away - the reasoning gives cover to the position arrived at subconsciously and emotionally. It's useful for self.
My point is that this will not move the needle, even among onlookers, if they've had no emotional reaction themselves. There's not enough people in the world not driven by their emotions to bother pretending otherwise, and to build strategies around it is to lose in a way that pleases.
Quote from: Melan;1141626You typically can't convince someone whose mind is already set, but you can make a good case for third parties, who might be persuaded.
Exactly! Lurkers outnumber posters by a huge margin.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1141637Exactly! Lurkers outnumber posters by a huge margin.
Pfft, has anyone ever seen a Lurker?
Childrens bedtime stories if you ask me.
Let me perhaps illustrate this in a slightly different way. Yes, I know many will think it's stupid/not get it. That's OK.
When Geeky brought up the creationism out of schools, it immediately struck me as to the core problem and weakness in this idea. The same people that must be depended upon to reject and defeat progressivism are the ones who caved to their principles on creationism in schools, or abandoned the field. This is why what caused them to cave must be honestly looked at and considered; it does no good to anyone to appeal to self-image by reframing the disappearance of creationism from education as an intellectual debate won on points. Creationists still believe in creationism and are merely absent from those centers of culture; those who compromised and adopted a half-way religion to maintain what they truly held most dear (position, peer-approval, and privilege) are the "religious" who are caving again to this challenge. Those not strongly believing either way back then, who had previously went along with creationism in schools because that was what society did, may have been won over to removing creationism on intellectual points; but also may have just followed the new cultural tide. Those who don't strongly believe either way are not going to fight a contested point; they're going to negotiate.
Put it in rock-paper-scissors perspective. Progressivism is rock; the pre-WW2 cultural mores is paper; the in-between who like the increasing acceptance of "anything goes" in society over the past 100 years and just want everyone to do their own thing, are scissors. Scissors were the weapon against paper; it wasn't rock. Those who gave in or left the field on the creationism question didn't do it because of rock; they did it because of scissors. It is scissors that weakens the paper ideologically disposed to fight to the last breath against rock. Scissors can't fight rock like that. It isn't in scissor's nature - the entire point is that they're conflict-averse, and want to talk it out or negotiate half of what currently exists, away. It is this very quality that makes it effective against paper, and woefully inadequate against rock. Scissors cutting paper into shreds is a situation that plays into rock's long-term strategy.
That's the conundrum for scissors. It didn't like the world paper lived in, and destroyed it, but it can't stop the world rock will impose and will like that even less. The very excuses it gave for destroying the world that paper built will now be adopted by rock to finish the job. Scissors wanted to retain the parts of the world paper built that it liked, and only get rid of the parts it found chafing; rock won't stop at that, and will use the same rhetoric scissors did earlier as its own justification. And scissors can do nothing to stop it because the plaintive wail of "but this will destroy what we wanted to reserve of the civilization paper built" is met with an enthusiastic "exactly, now you're getting it!".
Scissors can not itself build; it can only cut. It can either choose to live in rock-world or paper-world. There will never be a scissors world that is anything but a transition to rock world. This is the very reason rock beat scissors into existence from itself in the first place.
EOTB is right about the power of emotions. We're emotional creatures. All of our art and entertainment moves us via emotions. Not a big surprise our approach to politics and culture would also be emotional, but the whole point of education (in the past) was to teach people why and how we use Reason. But in 2020, the leading Presidential candidate declared "we choose Truth over Facts"!
TV, social media and 30+ years of Marxist indoctrination in academia have degraded the use and understanding of Reason, leaving us more and more driven by emotion as society.
The whole "Black people are Orcs!" is utterly insane and can't be debated, only mocked. Those aligned to such racist idiocy can't be turned, but the value for pushback is lurkers are heartened to read they're not alone.
In the past few months, we have been treated to a nearly daily cascade of truly bizarrely racist decrees from leftists, both in and out gaming, because there has been no mass pushback. Like out of control toddlers, they have been coddled and given their way instead of getting the spanking they need. The end result will be more stupidity and once leftists get capitulation, they always come back for more, and more and more.
Quote from: EOTB;1141639Put it in rock-paper-scissors perspective. Progressivism is rock; the pre-WW2 cultural mores is paper; the in-between who like the increasing acceptance of "anything goes" in society over the past 100 years and just want everyone to do their own thing, are scissors.
Excellent, truthful and grim analogy. And now we're at the end game of Rock/Paper/Scissors. Paper is shredded, and Rock is smashing Scissors while the shreds cry out from the dustbin.
Our only consolation is no one can control how we play RPGs at our own table in our own home. As long as we can gather 3-4 Paper shreds and snapped Scissors willing to show up with snacks and dice, we can enjoy our hobby in our own manner outside of whatever cultural shithole is created by Rock, at least for a few hours. And as long as there are un-moderated corners of the internet, we can gather to make noise at each other.
I'll raise the first tequila shot to the dying of the light.
I was adressing how to approach 3rd parties earlier.
Look, there were not any recent debates over whether Orcs are racist. There was a twitter post that started a pile on. If anybody questioned they were directed to one of few pretty poor essays people had written years ago on the web that were treated as if they were scientific proofs.
The way to convince 3rd parties is not to be defensive. That's the game they want you to play. They want you to be the person who tries to defend racism. You need to get them to reveal that what they mean by racism is not what most people think racism means. The more you get them to unpack their assumptions the more ridiculous they are going to look. A lot of them have a mental model in which marginalised people (or people in general perhaps) are ridiculously frail (watch Jonathan Haidt has called "safetyism", so get them to unpack the negative effects they feel will follow so that people can see that.
Quote from: GhostmakerIt should be noted that the strength cap didn't survive the jump to 2E, so clearly people looked at it and said 'Look, this is stupid, let's delete this' and agreed to do so...
Weapons vs armor and demons, devils, assassins, and half-orcs didn't survive the jump either. 2e is very much not a wargame, it is much more oriented toward storytelling and not offending anyone.
Quote from: EOTBWhat got creationism out of schools was not debate, but relentless mockery triggering an emotional response to make it stop, plus blacklisting anyone out of education who didn't conform...
That is how women attack each other. Radical feminism, which is composed of Atheists and goddess-worshipers, took over the education programs at the universities a long time ago, and since then they have fanned out into the school systems, from kindergarten on up, turning them into centers of indoctrination for cultural Marxism. Those that are now attacking RPGs, and other aspects of culture, are a direct result of these schools.
Debate is something that men do, and men are "toxic", meaning they are not women. Men are interested in the process of discovery, whereas women are more concerned with feelings and harmonious coexistence, which works when taking care of babies and toddlers, but it doesn't work out in the world. Any sort of vigorous debate, anything that would make babies cry, is castigated as "hate speech" and immediately shut down and banned.
On a positive note, the fact-free lockdown hysteria (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RDffMCAujg) is likely to accelerate the collapse of the public school system and colleges, thereby depriving radical activists of their most important breeding grounds. High school diplomas and many college degrees are now attainable online.
Quote from: Mercurius;1141143One person brought up the author's white-maleness.
Everybody here probably already knows that's an ad hominem argument. Truth is truth and false is false no matter who's lips speak it.
And dismissing it because he's a white male is discrimination.
No one is as sexist as a feminist and no one is as racist as an SJW.
Quote from: EOTB;1141639Scissors can not itself build; it can only cut. It can either choose to live in rock-world or paper-world. There will never be a scissors world that is anything but a transition to rock world. This is the very reason rock beat scissors into existence from itself in the first place.
Finally, somebody gets it. These are my thoughts exactly.
Quote from: TJS;1141642The way to convince 3rd parties is not to be defensive. That's the game they want you to play. They want you to be the person who tries to defend racism.
Everybody is racist to a certain degree. It's inescapable and natural. If you still position it as the ultimate sin, then you will be destroyed ultimately.
You're still playing by their rules.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1141222How much blood was spilled getting Creationism out of schools?
How much was spilt getting it back in the schools? None. But they used whatever means short of violence (that I am aware of) to get it put back and that included cult level brainwashing under the guise of "deprobramming" the poor brainwashed evolutionist. Remember that these are the same sorts who had a childrens show where they taught kids its ok to steal someones game books and destroy them.
And odds are that there has been violence and blood. Just quietly swept under the rug and hush-hush.
Quote from: EOTB;1141630Nearly everyone on both sides is responding to emotion, even if framing in reason. You can directly trace the stridency in opposition to the other sides arguments with how close to home they began to hit.
Actually its more often the intensity of the opposition to these cultists is on proportion to how tired someone is of being attacked. Or having something they like attacked. Or progressively ruined.
Its more the age old factor of what happens when you attack a persons community, home, vocation, or family. Sooner or later you will trip over the threshold where they start fighting back.
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1141678Weapons vs armor and demons, devils, assassins, and half-orcs didn't survive the jump either. 2e is very much not a wargame, it is much more oriented toward storytelling and not offending anyone.
2e was on several levels very much bending knee to the previous iteration of these loons. And a few other complainers rather than the majority of players.
I haven't been into RPGs for about ten years, lockdowns have drawn me back in. The last rules set I bought was the first edition of Pathfinder, which I liked since I did not want to switch to 4e DnD (common story I am sure). The politicization of the hobby is astounding to me, especially Paizo. It's disappointing and frustrating.
Quote from: Omega;1141747How much was spilt getting it back in the schools? None. But they used whatever means short of violence (that I am aware of) to get it put back and that included cult level brainwashing under the guise of "deprobramming" the poor brainwashed evolutionist. Remember that these are the same sorts who had a childrens show where they taught kids its ok to steal someones game books and destroy them.
And odds are that there has been violence and blood. Just quietly swept under the rug and hush-hush.
Not so sure you want to start implying that what some creationists do to game books, or what some atheists do to game books, are the collective guilt of all creationists or atheists respectively, chief. The cog dis might go off the charts. But this does encapsulate the scissors conundrum.
Quote from: Omega;1141749Actually its more often the intensity of the opposition to these cultists is on proportion to how tired someone is of being attacked. Or having something they like attacked. Or progressively ruined.
Its more the age old factor of what happens when you attack a persons community, home, vocation, or family. Sooner or later you will trip over the threshold where they start fighting back.
This differs from what I said...how? What makes the "actually" relevant?
Quote from: Cigalazade;1141759The politicization of the hobby is astounding to me, especially Paizo. It's disappointing and frustrating.
Welcome aboard Cigalazade!! Glad to have you join us in the Mos Eisley of RPG scum and villainy!! Your favorite game totally sucks, unless it's also my favorite game, and in that case, you're playing it wrong!!
Start a thread about what you're currently playing or interested in playing. As you've been out of RPGing since 2010, one of the most exciting developments has been the rise of old school gaming via the OSR.
Plenty of good stuff worth playing exists (from the past and present) and thankfully, all you need is 4-5 friends at a table (real or virtual) willing to put aside personal bullshit for 4 hours a week and just enjoy the game.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1141903Welcome aboard Cigalazade!! Glad to have you join us in the Mos Eisley of RPG scum and villainy!! Your favorite game totally sucks, unless it's also my favorite game, and in that case, you're playing it wrong!!
Start a thread about what you're currently playing or interested in playing. As you've been out of RPGing since 2010, one of the most exciting developments has been the rise of old school gaming via the OSR.
Plenty of good stuff worth playing exists (from the past and present) and thankfully, all you need is 4-5 friends at a table (real or virtual) willing to put aside personal bullshit for 4 hours a week and just enjoy the game.
Thanks for the welcome. I'm interested in Renaissance themed games, it's a nice alternative to medieval influenced stuff that is the norm for fantasy RPGs.
Quote from: Cigalazade;1142010Thanks for the welcome. I'm interested in Renaissance themed games, it's a nice alternative to medieval influenced stuff that is the norm for fantasy RPGs.
Even though he calls it "Medieval Authentic Fantasy," Pundit's Dark Albion is awfully
late medieval and might suit you.
Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1142022Even though he calls it "Medieval Authentic Fantasy," Pundit's Dark Albion is awfully late medieval and might suit you.
Seeing RPGPundit's video about that book is what drew me to join here incidentally, I plan on getting it