I started this thread because me and a buddy of mine we're discussing the recent "concerns" that have come to our hobby with the regards of racism (orcs, drow) and stereotyping (alignment) and how really a non-issue he and I think they are.  NOT that they aren't issues in the real world...just that they shouldn't be an issue in our games, nor an outlet for these issues and agendas.  We were already talking about the agenda that's being pushed in WotC products and how far we feel the hobby is from where it should be – a place where we can get away from real world crap like social injustices, racism, political bulshit, and the like...and just play.

My buddy, fresh off of this conversation, brought it up to his group that evening (the night before last). Part way through the discussion the SJW player in his group logged on to Roll20 and, in the typical "intolerant of any view but their own" fashion, listened for a few seconds before blurting out "If this is the conversation we're going to have all night, I'll just log off!"  My buddy replied "Don't worry about it, I'll log out," and promptly did so.

People do need to remember they're playing a game that is 50 years old.

As I think someone else already said in this thread, and as I've said before, our fundamental values really haven't changed as much as the cancellista's like to pretend.

But there are a few things that I don't think would be done now.  Drow spring to mind (I found that a bit embarrassing to explain to people in the 90s).  But you probably wouldn't just take things from Tolkien whole cloth either.

But the wierd thing is the pardox of insisting on playing a 50 year old game, because of it's lore and tradition, and then constantly complaining about that same thing.  

You look at the thread over on rpgnet and it's steeped in D&D lore.  Thing's like, maybe Gruumsh can be reworked to be less evil.  For Fuck's sake who cares about Gruumsh?  Every single one of their proposed alterations is boring and pointless.  Just as Gruumsh is really pretty boring - a discount off-brand Odin.

Look at the OSR.  Do any of those games need Gruumsh?  I imagine they can't use most of the lore because it's not open content, but really that did the OSR a big favour - it freed them to actually be creative.  Who cares about the Drow when you could have the Eld from the Hyrda collective?

There was a thread on Rpgnet a while ago about making a retroclone because WOTC not being woke enough.  Yes.  They should do that.  That would actually be a worthwhile use of time.  They should stop trying to exert control over something that's not theirs and make something that is.

While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.

If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141378While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.

If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).

I'd say "So you see a mentally deficient misanthropic monsters who steal from and murders people, and you immediately think 'black person?' I need to post what you just said so everyone can stay away from your toxic racism."

Make them live up their own standards and make them eat their own. Claim it's their identifying black people as orcs that means they deserve to unpersoned for their wrongthink and thrown to the SJW cancel-culture mob.

Quote from: Chris24601;1141385I'd say "So you see a mentally deficient misanthropic monsters who steal from and murders people, and you immediately think 'black person?' I need to post what you just said so everyone can stay away from your toxic racism."

Make them live up their own standards and make them eat their own. Claim it's their identifying black people as orcs that means they deserve to unpersoned for their wrongthink and thrown to the SJW cancel-culture mob.

Waste of time.

Point and laugh. Mock them mercilessly. "Other" and ostracize them. Don't take their verbal sewage seriously.

And don't game with them. Don't game where they are welcomed. Take your table elsewhere, and don't let them come anywhere near your table. Actively recruit for your table, and actively exclude them from your table.

Always remember: make them the outsiders, because that's what they will do to you and to our hobby.

Quote from: TJS;1141375But there are a few things that I don't think would be done now.  Drow spring to mind (I found that a bit embarrassing to explain to people in the 90s).

The only thing about the drow that stands out as legitimately problematic, in my view, is the fact that their skin was darkened through cursing. WotC phased that out years ago. Everything else that people complain about--dark skin, evil, matriarchal, BDSM-ish--is fine and doesn't need to be changed.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141455The only thing about the drow that stands out as legitimately problematic, in my view, is the fact that their skin was darkened through cursing. WotC phased that out years ago. Everything else that people complain about--dark skin, evil, matriarchal, BDSM-ish--is fine and doesn't need to be changed.

Why is being cursed to have black skin "legitimately problematic"?

"Black" people in America - or anywhere else

1) Aren't actually BLACK

2) Aren't cursed by god(s)

3) Aren't inherently evil.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141455The only thing about the drow that stands out as legitimately problematic, in my view, is the fact that their skin was darkened through cursing. WotC phased that out years ago. Everything else that people complain about--dark skin, evil, matriarchal, BDSM-ish--is fine and doesn't need to be changed.

Because "matriarchal, BDSM-ish" is too on-point?

I'd don't really care if they're "problematic" or not.  (Boy has that become a weasel word).

I just think they're a product of their time, like Erol Otus art, flared trousers, semi-naked barbarian movies, ninjas and putting elves and dwarves in every fantasy setting ever.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141378While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.

If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).

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Quote from: TJS;1141375There was a thread on Rpgnet a while ago about making a retroclone because WOTC not being woke enough.  Yes.  They should do that.  That would actually be a worthwhile use of time.  They should stop trying to exert control over something that's not theirs and make something that is.

Of course, they won't because it's not really about what's in the game.  Siezing control is what it's really about.

Quote from: TJS;1141299Well keeping to Orcs,  I think, it would be most helpful to ask them questions like "What harm do you feel is being done by the way Orcs are depicted - and can you explain how this works", also " What would it take to convince you that Orcs are not racist?".  Their whole approach is putting people on the defensive.  The whole recent argument about Orcs began with a contentless tweet.  That tells you what you're dealing with - if it had begun with a well reasoned argument with close reading and analysis then you could respond in kind.  So the response needs to avoid beginning on the backfoot.  Make them explain themselves.  

It's not their arguments you need to reveal, it's the fundamental assumptions that they're built on.  Most people are still fairly liberal.  Critical Social Justice is profoundly illiberal.  The simple truth is that most people are good intentioned and don't know what they're buying into.

The new discourses website, founded by the people who did the grievance studies hoax papers several years ago, recently wrote up a section of advice and a letter template which you can use if your employer wants to make you do diversity training.

Pointing out how their beliefs are actually racist may also help.

Mocking them may also help.  That's a bit of an uphill struggle at the moment, but it wouldn't surprise me if the dam bursts at some stage in society generally.  In the case of Orcs it would probably helpful to remind people that D&D is basically a cartoonish game of goodies and baddies and the real problem is taking it and yourself too seriously.

Basically they need to be isolated.

Spot on.

The problem is many of us retreat for fear of being piled on.  The problem I have seen is that on many rpg sites, as soon as common sense starts to win out, the discussion is quickly shut down.  People get banned, whatever.

I think it is worth asking these direct questions.  Make some explain it. Only then does the absurdity become crystal clear.

So, the depiction or orcs is problematic.  What do you think will happen if this depiction is not changed.  Then what will happen?  How does that work?

I think you are spot on.  The key is being able to make these points online and everywhere without being cancelled banned or shot!

Quote from: TJS;1141490Of course, they won't because it's not really about what's in the game.  Siezing control is what it's really about.

Greetings!

Very true, TJS! Seizing control is the SJW's whole mission in life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141378While the appeals to logic are all well and good, you really have to remember: these people are not approaching this from a logical position.

If you ask them 'how are orcs racist?' they will insist it's not their job to 'educate' you. If you ask how to fix it, they will make a list of ridiculous demands (I shit you not, I saw one guy insisting that black players should start at higher levels than nonblack ones. I wanted to cry).

  Way back a decade ago, I was in a discussion on TBP and it was a dodgy discussion around how sexist Gary Gygax was for having human women having a strength cap lower than a man's, and though I could agree there was no need for such a distinction, we are also talking about a guy who had a very detailed chart showing you how a longsword performed against various armor class types, so I could not say his motivation was sexism and asked if they could explain that point of view to me.  got warned, that asking for explanation of a view point was against forum rules, and sure enough there is a forum rule that it is on you to know what is woke enough to discuss and if you do not see immediately how something is -ist, it was verboten to ask for an explanation.  Because the good folk there are not there to help, or to educate, they are there to point out the sinner.

Quote from: TJS;1141299Well keeping to Orcs,  I think, it would be most helpful to ask them questions like "What harm do you feel is being done by the way Orcs are depicted - and can you explain how this works", also " What would it take to convince you that Orcs are not racist?".  

They'll just tell you you're JAQing off.