Quote from: Zalman on April 12, 2025, 08:12:40 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 11, 2025, 05:16:37 PMIt will still be something that I can insert/replace easily in sections (ring notebook) at first,

I mean, this is the possibly the best format of all: pages printed double-sided, in sheet protectors, in a 3-ring notebook. It lays flat. Or stands up. No margins necessary (which makes a half-letter size more accommodating), updated pages can be printed and replaced individually. New sections can be added. Tabbed dividers can be used.

The binders themselves are hardback. They have pockets. They can have pen holders, etc. Players can swap out a cheap stock binder with their own custom cover.

You can take dry erase notes on the page protectors I think?

And the actual printing/notebook/sheet-protector cost is no more than self-printing in small batches.

Obviously this doesn't apply to publishing, but it's almost hard to switch to a published format from there.

Well, I hadn't considered the sheet protectors, and it would be overkill for the bulk of the pages.  I use the plastic sleeves on the outside of the notebooks not for covers but for frequently referenced charts.  The sleeves would be even better for that in some cases, though.

As for switching to traditional publishing later, it's not all that bad, with a little bit of compromise. Sure, you can't support just any old format, but some moderate margins in the bulk of the letter size, set to print front and back with offset to allow for later binding, doesn't change. In any case, in the early days still hole punching, I need some offset margin anyway.

What is different is that there are parts that would accompany in PDF for printing and use (e.g. spell books and handouts).  So not so good for store sales unless going for the expensive box option, but certainly doable as a print on demand thing.

Quote from: Kravell on April 11, 2025, 08:39:56 PMLost Eons looks interesting. I don't have it, though, so I don't know the page count.

Interesting.  Thanks for the link as that's the format that I was thinking about as well (A5 saddle stapled).   The page count would indeed be useful info as well as where it was potentially printed (locally or at a full fledged printer) but I doubt we'll find that out (and definitely they have no real reason to share that info frankly!).

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 11, 2025, 05:16:37 PMRight now, I do most of the rules in my own system in booklet.  The reason I did it was because it makes it easier to roll out changes to the play testers.  I'm working on the next major release, which will move quite a bit of the booklet content into standard letter size, now that I'm happy with it. It will still be something that I can insert/replace easily in sections (ring notebook) at first, before eventually moving to something more permanent--likely a saddle stitch.

*SNIP*

I had a decent stapler before. Now I have a better one.  The trick with thicker booklets is to use a good stapler with the correct, quality staples for the thickness of the booklet.  A good stapler will manage a 64 page (16 sheets of paper, folded) booklet--but only if you use the longer staples for that thickness.  Conversely, using those longer staples for a 8 or 16 page book will mangle them.

Is that something that you'd consider to be good enough for a formal release quality-wise or is it more accurately good enough for the dev/test phases instead?

I've ended up at a 6x9" single column format with generous margins (4.5x7.5" is my decided upon print area for a 0.5" outer and upper margin, and 0.75" inner and lower margin with the page number sitting just above 0.5" at the bottom).

This is because...
A) it reads well on a tablet (two column 8.5x11" often requires zooming) and in two-page view (the spread in the physical book) on a laptop or desktop screen.

B) 6x9" is the least expensive for book printing because it is the most common print size, meaning there's lots of competitors and local companies who can do the work (I opted for black & white interiors for pretty much this reason too).

C) for physical playtests the pages can be formatted with tight margins at two book pages to a single 8.5x11" sheet of paper (so each page as a spread from the final book) and then slipped into binders (I use accounting ledger ones and a sidehole punch so the whole thing can be flipped through in a landscape orientation).

Overall, with potential overseas printing costs becoming an issue I could see the "box of booklets" becoming more popular.

If nothing else, a print-friendly PDF option included along with your fancy ones that was designed for Office Depot/Kinkos style booklet printing might be a nice value-add to your PDF products (I'm going to have one for mine, specifically absent all artwork and using the one spread per 8.5x11" page format above).

Quote from: RNGm on April 12, 2025, 10:33:03 AMIs that something that you'd consider to be good enough for a formal release quality-wise or is it more accurately good enough for the dev/test phases instead?

The latter, at least compared to professional releases.  If I ever release to the general public, there isn't going to be any pretense of a professional release, because frankly I don't have the time to produce that.  I will be aiming for upper-end amateur, with more of a focus on ease of use than presentation pop. But then, my goal for release will not be to make money but simply to get the game into the hands of anyone interested at basically cost. If I was aiming for something more general, it would be a different game entirely. I'm designing for a niche within a niche.

For a professional product, this approach would only work for an alpha or beta edition with a strategy of getting feedback before the final product--slow growth instead of splash.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 12, 2025, 08:23:17 AMI hadn't considered the sheet protectors, and it would be overkill for the bulk of the pages

I think the main advantage of sheet protectors for me would be the lack of a need for an interior border for holes. I don't think it matters for letter size, but for half-letter that space is a big bite, especially if the end goal is a stapled booklet that can make use of 2-page spreads, etc.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 12, 2025, 12:00:03 PM

Quote from: RNGm on April 12, 2025, 10:33:03 AMIs that something that you'd consider to be good enough for a formal release quality-wise or is it more accurately good enough for the dev/test phases instead?

The latter, at least compared to professional releases.  If I ever release to the general public, there isn't going to be any pretense of a professional release, because frankly I don't have the time to produce that.  I will be aiming for upper-end amateur, with more of a focus on ease of use than presentation pop. But then, my goal for release will not be to make money but simply to get the game into the hands of anyone interested at basically cost. If I was aiming for something more general, it would be a different game entirely. I'm designing for a niche within a niche.

For a professional product, this approach would only work for an alpha or beta edition with a strategy of getting feedback before the final product--slow growth instead of splash.

Same here with a goal of upper end amateur.  If a couple of booklets was good enough to start out D&D (and the wider RPG industry as a whole) then it's good enough for me as well.   That's why I found @Kravell 's Lost Eons link useful as it's the format for the most part that I was pie in the sky thinking for printing at some nebulous point in the future potentially if it gets to that stage.   I think I put in enough disclaimers there, lol.