Quote from: Jam The MF on January 04, 2022, 01:07:11 AM
Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells?  DCC has something like that.

I believe White Hack does this also.

For D&D though, that would probably also require adjusting Hit Points to be more equal among classes, since Magic-users would ostensibly burn through them as readily as fighters. Hit Points are a pretty major player in D&D's rule engine, so that move likely warrants extreme care.

Quote from: Zalman on January 04, 2022, 09:55:30 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 04, 2022, 01:07:11 AM
Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells?  DCC has something like that.

I believe White Hack does this also.

For D&D though, that would probably also require adjusting Hit Points to be more equal among classes, since Magic-users would ostensibly burn through them as readily as fighters. Hit Points are a pretty major player in D&D's rule engine, so that move likely warrants extreme care.

Microlite20 does this by giving all classes the same hit points.

Quote from: palaeomerus on January 04, 2022, 05:54:10 AM
This is pure sadism, but let people overuse magic but the cost is the worst thing in the world. Long lasting penalties a lah the old withered arm. Spells might give you an ugly face or give you tics making your CHA come down. Dain bramage. Your Int is lowered or your WIS. Maybe you forget a language you know. Maybe you get XP drain or even that bastard of bastards a negative level or two! Maybe you have a permanent loss of a known spell because your neurons cooked off. Sorry but you'll never ever feather fall again.

I know DCC did this with mutations but maybe watching your character degrade like a line back with bad knees and a tremor in his hands is the way to go with those who dare push the magical envelope.

Imagine an ambitious mage who has to wear a ring enchanted to reduce how punchy he has become and without it he has confusion and the shakes.

Shades of Stross's Laundry Files, where if you don't use implements to cast spells, microscopic eldritch critters begin to eat your brains.

Quote from: Pat on January 04, 2022, 11:56:15 AM

Quote from: Zalman on January 04, 2022, 09:55:30 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 04, 2022, 01:07:11 AM
Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells?  DCC has something like that.

I believe White Hack does this also.

For D&D though, that would probably also require adjusting Hit Points to be more equal among classes, since Magic-users would ostensibly burn through them as readily as fighters. Hit Points are a pretty major player in D&D's rule engine, so that move likely warrants extreme care.

Microlite20 does this by giving all classes the same hit points.

You beat me to it. Microlite deserves more accolades. IIRC, HP lost from spells heals quicker than HP lost from o wounds? Or did I make that up?

Quote from: Jaeger on January 02, 2022, 07:16:03 PM
One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:

So you roll to cast vs a DC.

But each spell costs a certain amount of 'stress' to cast. (call it strain, or whatever)

MU can cast as much as they want: (The conceit is that they are "channeling" the elemental powers of creation.)

But they always rack up 'stress'...

The Stress track comes into play when the PC's fail when the caster rolls a "1"...

Roll on a table where the PC rolls a 1d12 (or whatever) but the amount of stress accrued by the caster is added to the roll.

This table has various effects for how badly the caster has fucked themselves by racking up stress casting their spells.

Everything from causing themselves harm, losing control with varying effects, to outright uncontrolled channeling effects where the caster can go up like roman candle.

Essentially the idea is that magical casters are essentially time bombs waiting to go off if they get too profligate when channeling the elemental forces.

Casters would be somewhat powerful, but this is always tempered by the fact that at any given time there is a 1 in 20 chance that the caster will lose his shit to some degree.

So the more a caster pushes their luck before they have a chance to rest and reduce their stress; (a mechanic for that would be needed) The greater the chance that they will face harsh consequences when they pooch a casting or rather "channeling" roll.

Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.

This is a great idea. I would ditch the casting roll vs  DC, and just roll a D20 to see if a 1 came up.

Quote from: Aglondir on January 13, 2022, 10:28:14 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on January 02, 2022, 07:16:03 PM
One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:

So you roll to cast vs a DC.  ...

... Blah, blah, blah, me, me, me...

Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.

This is a great idea. I would ditch the casting roll vs  DC, and just roll a D20 to see if a 1 came up.

Thanks.

My conceit behind also having a casting roll vs  DC it to reinforce how chaotic magic is in the game. A 'normal' miscast would result in slightly annoying but rather mild consequences like having added stress with no spell cast, to losing a turn, etc..

i.e. 'Channeling' elemental forces is an uncertain and dangerous thing. IMHO is is useful to have more than one check as it were on caster power. And also if melee and ranged attacks have to be rolled by fighters and filthy bards; why should magic users get a pass?  And it keeps things mechanically consistent across the board.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 06, 2021, 08:39:08 PM
Heresy. Everything about the baseline 0D&D system was perfect up until a bunch of assholes ruined it for no reason except they wanted some storygaming/snowflake/munchkin/powergamer/SJW experience!
There is no reason to change or advance anything in the system because its perfect. And anybody who disagrees is just some wuss.

Except whatever you make pundit. That stuff must be good.

While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion,

Were Claw Law and Spell Law books ever any good?

Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2022, 03:49:49 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on January 13, 2022, 10:28:14 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on January 02, 2022, 07:16:03 PM
One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:

So you roll to cast vs a DC.  ...

... Blah, blah, blah, me, me, me...

Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.

This is a great idea. I would ditch the casting roll vs  DC, and just roll a D20 to see if a 1 came up.

Thanks.

My conceit behind also having a casting roll vs  DC it to reinforce how chaotic magic is in the game. A 'normal' miscast would result in slightly annoying but rather mild consequences like having added stress with no spell cast, to losing a turn, etc..

i.e. 'Channeling' elemental forces is an uncertain and dangerous thing. IMHO is is useful to have more than one check as it were on caster power. And also if melee and ranged attacks have to be rolled by fighters and filthy bards; why should magic users get a pass?  And it keeps things mechanically consistent across the board.

Then you might want to rethink saves. Swords attacks are driven by attack rolls made by the attacker, while defense contributes a passive component (AC is basically a target number). Conversely OSR magic is automatic, but allows resistance by the target (a save). Both boil down to a single roll to see if it succeeds. A simple system can have different mechanics for different things, with different assumptions, but should avoiding stacking too many things into each action. Keeping it at the single roll threshold is useful for equal balance/opportunity, plus most people's grasp of probability breaks down when results are contingent on a series of rolls.

Quote from: Pat on January 18, 2022, 04:08:20 PM

Then you might want to rethink saves. Swords attacks are driven by attack rolls made by the attacker, while defense contributes a passive component (AC is basically a target number). Conversely OSR magic is automatic, but allows resistance by the target (a save). Both boil down to a single roll to see if it succeeds. A simple system can have different mechanics for different things, with different assumptions, but should avoiding stacking too many things into each action. Keeping it at the single roll threshold is useful for equal balance/opportunity, plus most people's grasp of probability breaks down when results are contingent on a series of rolls.

You are correct, "saves" would have to work much like they did in 4e.

I have no problem with that. As this allows certain spells to work vs AC anyway.

I watched the video and I'll admit The Invisible College magic is intriguing, and I love magic vs difficulty systems in general.

   I haven't picked up the Invisible College yet, though i intend to, as i had an interest in the subject for many years, so i'm not sure how the
use of magic is worked into it, but leaving aside the Golden Dawn, King Solomon's Goetia or Abramelin the Mage's old tomes... sometimes just
plain old fashioned fairy tales and folk magic can be an interesting basis for a magic system, though it takes a bit of work.

   Many years ago i'd ran a campaign set in an ancient, fantasy version of Ireland, complete with lime pools for the heads on ones enemies,
talking cats, giants foul to fight and fair to dispense often backhanded gifts, plenty of druids, holly and mistletoe, Faerie kingdoms just beyond sight,
cauldrons that would revive dead soldiers (as King Matholwch and others liked to use), Harps that could play on their own, and a magic system
based around old Irish myth and legends.  Spells were rare and rather involved, but as long as you could go through the motions if you knew the
spell you could pull it off.  For example, here's a few we used taken from Irish fairy tales and spells written by Lady Wilde (Oscar's mother).

   Invisibility ...  to become invisible you must acquire a ravens heart, split it open with a black-hafted knife and make on it three cuts, in each cut
                        you will place a bean, then plant it.  When it sprouts put a bean in your mouth and say the following incantation...
                                      "By virtue of Satan's art... and the strength of mine great art... i desire to be invisible!"
                        and so it shall be for as long as the bean is kept in your mouth (can make up your own stipulations as to how long they can do it)

   To find stolen goods ...  place two keys on a sieve in the form of a cross, two will hold the sieve while a third makes the sign of the cross on
                        the suspected party and calls out his name three times.  If innocent the key will remain motionless, but if guilty the key will revolve
                        about the sieve and you know then they are guilty.

   To Fly ... an enchanted red cap is needed along with a sprig of yarrow will be tossed while reciting the incantation seated upon a rod or twig..
                        "by Yarrow and Rue... and my red cap too... hie me o'er to (Destination)."  A spell used by the witches in Shemus Rua.

   Had a whole book of such spells worked out, usually against the PC's as they never learned how to cast more than a few, but it allows you to be
really creative with the magic you can challenge the players with, someday i'd like to do the same in a Finnish setting.  Extra work but that was one
of the more memorable campaigns we had back in the day.
                               

                       

Thanks guys, hope you pick up the book soon!

I had an idea for a system that is similar to Vancian, but a bit more to my liking than magical amnesia. 

"Scroll reader magic". 

The idea is that like normal people a scroll reader mage can read a scroll, get the magic effect, and the scroll erases itself.  However, this mage has X-amount of scrolls-per-day that will re-write themselves after 24 hours and be useable again.  This mage can make a single scroll be useful for the mage's entire life.  The mage collects as many scrolls as possible, binding them up as pages in a single book they carry around.

I might even add a rule that after their scrolls-per-day are used up the scroll reader can still read a scroll and it only has a 15% chance to be permanently erased like a normal scroll, with an additional +15% chance per scroll used. I.E. your third scroll read after running out of scrolls-per-day has a 45% chance to be lost, and your fourth scroll is a 60% chance to be gone for good. 

Naturally, if you own 37 see in the dark scrolls, and 1 fireball, it doesn't matter that you want to cast 2, or more fireballs a day.  You just can't because that's all you book has in it.

There is no better magic system than what OD&D created.

However, there are many different magic systems available.

At best, it's a matter of taste and perhaps what works best for a particular setting.

After four decades of gaming, I don't even have a favorite magic system as each has its own advantages, disadvantages and idiosyncrasies.