I prefer fewer spells known, and spell points instead of slots. In 5e, I'm trying a system in which 1st level spells cost 1 sp, 3rd level spells cost 3 sp, etc.

Only caveat (that already exists in the system) is that you can only cast one spell of level 6, 7, 8 and 9 per day. In theory you could spam 5th level spells, but this is seldom the best idea.

Another advantage is that you can fix the "5 min workday" by giving back a few SP per short rest.

Magicians are differentiated by spells known, and also "signature spells", etc.

Vancian is a bit more flavorful but requires more bookkeeping.

Other option I've tried is making a d20 roll against spell level, etc., witch chances of spell mishap. This adds another layer to strategy: sure, a big fireball would take care of our enemies, but what if it goes wrong?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 06:44:26 PM

Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:31:36 PMThe other is a set of ground rules for how the world works that are established at the start of the game and consistently applied. It's literally what old school games do best -- establish a coherent world over which the players gain power as they begin to understand how things work. It's sometimes called player skill, but I dislike that framing.

A per/day power slot based system is one of the most gamey systems I have seen in RPGs in terms of organic worldbuilding or mapping to any sort of literature or myth. 'I don't like you guys using optimal strategies so I apply this utterly arbitrary limitation on why you wouldn't use it'.
And I know you dislike framing player skill as a thing that exists.

The reason most modern RPGs turn away from a focus on player skill is because they then compete with videogames, which do that better and faster.

Hit points are a far more gamey system. And they don't map closely to any sort of literature or myth.

And yet they're enormously successful.

Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 07:57:13 PMHit points are a far more gamey system.

Id say Vanician spells are still significantly worse. And if the angle is success, they are seen in D&D and nothing else.

If going in a pure 'Fuck reality this is a game for you to master, not a attempt at world silumation', then OSR is really not up there.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 08, 2021, 12:52:02 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.

I haven't heard that one but I like it. Imagine every spell level costs a HP to cast. 4th level spell is 4 HP. Recovered at the normal rates which means rests for Fighters and Wizards are basically the same. you could even let your Wizard cast high level spells if they are willing to pay the price.

Mix that up with the by skill casting and you can have fumbles cost double HP and magic becomes a bit unpredictable and possibly deadly.

If I remember correctly, spellcasting costs fatigue points in C&S. Moreover, there was an OGL Ancients book from Mongoose in which casting cost hit points.

Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 07:57:13 PMHit points are a far more gamey system. And they don't map closely to any sort of literature or myth.

And yet they're enormously successful.

The hit point system is something that's interacted with multiple times per round as every PC and monster has to be tracked according to how much damage it has taken. So the damage system needs to be streamlined as much as possible as a more complex system could grind down play speed too much.

A spell system, OTOH, might only be used once every couple of round meaning that there is room for more complicated rules without bogging down the game.

Sure magic rules can be complicated, but do they need to be?
I like the system from World of Dungeons. You have two spirits that you can summon through an hour-long ritual, from an item in which they are trapped, or by drinking a dose of a mild poison and addictive drug. This last option you can take a number of times per day equal to your level without risk of health side effects.
The spirits each have two domains of power, like flame, shadow, secrets, water, etc. This helps define what they can do for you.

It's pretty free-form and allows for player creativity, which is always good.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 06:51:44 PM

Quote from: PsyXypher on December 08, 2021, 06:45:40 PMConsider that you could say, nerf magic to account for that, I'm not sure if that's really an issue.

It isn't. This is me having a laugh at the question. Like of course there are much better systems for magic then D&D/OSR. Its largely stuck with for nostalgia.

I think it's less nostalgia and more "This literally wouldn't be Dungeons & Dragons if you got rid of this thing that's been here since day one."

It'd be like removing classes or removing hit points and replacing it with a completely different system.

Quote from: PsyXypher on December 12, 2021, 01:54:31 PMI think it's less nostalgia and more "This literally wouldn't be Dungeons & Dragons if you got rid of this thing that's been here since day one."

But we are talking OSR. D&D can be D&D. But inspirations and spiritual continuations are in their right mind to make improvements.

Quote from: PsyXypher on December 12, 2021, 01:54:31 PM

I think it's less nostalgia and more "This literally wouldn't be Dungeons & Dragons if you got rid of this thing that's been here since day one."

It'd be like removing classes or removing hit points and replacing it with a completely different system.

In OSR games people do those things.

I really like any magic system that makes magic weird and dangerous and unpredictable.

I enjoy the UA 3E magic system - very flexible without being OP (but you have to use the mechanics to make it work -  you couldn't port it). However, while it feels realistic, it isn't "real" in the sense that it looks like anything anyone in the real world has done/done to create magic (though it seems real - I can't explain it better).

If I recall correctly Pundit's system is a lot of downtime work to create a weird effect, involving a lab and creepy stuff. Kudos to pundit for at least trying something different.

Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:11:10 PM
... I want spellcasters to feel different, and to sometimes have to make choices that don't involve the optimal choice. If the only spell you have memorized that's leftover is waterbreathing, how can you leverage it to help win a contest at the fair, or save the village from an invasion of wereboars?

To play devils advocate:

In that situation if the only spell leftover was waterbreathing, most players did not view that as the result of a choice "making the spellcasters feel different."

It was viewed as a wasted spell slot.

When WotC came around with their survey's players couldn't check the 'this is not fun!' box fast enough.

Components, having to learn all spells in-game, even the AD&D round segments with casting times leaving magic users open to interruption, were all used as checks to the magic users power.

They were all whittled away by WotC until by 5e none of those checks are there anymore. Generally by player demand.

Original D&D style Vancian casting has been seen more and more as limited and boring because it does not let players emulate the style of 'wizard' that is now commonly seen in media.

Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:11:10 PM
Part of this is limiting and constraining the effects each type of caster has available, but it's also about limiting which spells can be used when. A spell point system with free choice of any spell is another half of the generalist mage problem.

IMHO free spell choice is a problem with all magic systems that allow it.

The trick is that for early D&D when and what spells became "available" to learn was largely GM fiat.

Which was another reason players agitated for that restriction to be gone.

IMHO any system that makes it a requirement to learn spells in game would do well to have a table that is rolled on when the PC's do research, so as to maintain a sense of player-facing neutrality for the game.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 11:44:05 AM
Something else to consider is bookkeeping.

At higher levels, spell management in a Vancian system is fucking annoying. A mana pool/magic point system, or the spontaneous casting system, can be much less hassle.

IMHO, he trick is to make the hassle worth the payoff in play at the table, and if possible have it serve double duty as a check on the power level of the magic PC.

One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:

So you roll to cast vs a DC.

But each spell costs a certain amount of 'stress' to cast. (call it strain, or whatever)

MU can cast as much as they want: (The conceit is that they are "channeling" the elemental powers of creation.)

But they always rack up 'stress'...

The Stress track comes into play when the PC's fail when the caster rolls a "1"...

Roll on a table where the PC rolls a 1d12 (or whatever) but the amount of stress accrued by the caster is added to the roll.

This table has various effects for how badly the caster has fucked themselves by racking up stress casting their spells.

Everything from causing themselves harm, losing control with varying effects, to outright uncontrolled channeling effects where the caster can go up like roman candle.

Essentially the idea is that magical casters are essentially time bombs waiting to go off if they get too profligate when channeling the elemental forces.

Casters would be somewhat powerful, but this is always tempered by the fact that at any given time there is a 1 in 20 chance that the caster will lose his shit to some degree.

So the more a caster pushes their luck before they have a chance to rest and reduce their stress; (a mechanic for that would be needed) The greater the chance that they will face harsh consequences when they pooch a casting or rather "channeling" roll.

Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.

I'm happy with the spell design system in D6; can handle on the fly design like marvel hero powers or do the drawn out ritual prescription and memorization that most find familiar. I use a different variation of the D6 meta physics, magic, miracles, psionics and force rules for different types of casters. I prefer free-form or generalized rather than having endless tomes with spells like "ralph's purple fist size screaming skull meteors" and "Bob's green screaming skull town crier enhancer". With D6 I can tailor the details to the player/character so if you like overly specific spells you memorize you can go that route and play with spell design in advance, if you are more of a doctor strange you can do your spell design on the fly, it's the same chart and process really.

Honestly, I quite liked the Ars Magica system for longer-term campaigns; it went through a zillion editions and even got fucked a bit by White Wolf and it's been years so my memory is fuzzy, but:

For casting, you had a Latin verb and noun and combined them. For example Creo for create and Ignem for fire - together they make fire. You'd have ranks in Creo or Ignem, and you'd add a 1d10 roll - each 5 was a level of effect, something like 5 was a hand-sized fire all the way up to 30 for a room-sized fire, something like that.

Casting was either spontaneous like the above, or a "spell", which was a pre-written version of the above and which gave you a bonus to your roll. So if you were always creating hand-sized bits of fire you'd make it into a spell. But that wouldn't be a room-sized fireball.

If you failed your roll you could either let the casting simply fizzle out, or you could expend fatigue levels, one for each 5 it was failed by. So the mage who stayed within their abilities all the time could be casting all day without trouble. The one who pushed themselves got tired out and eventually fell over.

There was also vis which was magical essence, to be found in magical places and creatures. You could use this to boost your casting rolls, and it was also necessary to make an effect permanent. if you just wanted to have a hand-sized fire burning on a torch that was just your casting as above, but once it ran out of fuel it'd go out. If you wanted an eternal flame you'd need some Creo or Ignem vis. Time to go kill a dragon and take out its lungs, or something.

And yes, this meant that healing was not permanent without vis. People in Ars Magica were very much mortal.

The mage improved their magical skills by spending three-month seasons studying books or vis or researching generally. Players also had a Companion (non-magical PC) and Grog (basically hirelings) whom they could play. The magi settled down into "covenants" - pretty much like monasteries. Every year or two they'd need to go on an adventure so they could return to their covenant to study or make magical items or the like. And there was a bit of management with the covenant, and diplomacy with local nobles and clergy.

It was quite fun, I thought, but much more suited to in-depth and long-term play than typical "old school" stuff which works fine as an open game table of pretty casual players.

Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells?  DCC has something like that.

This is pure sadism, but let people overuse magic but the cost is the worst thing in the world. Long lasting penalties a lah the old withered arm. Spells might give you an ugly face or give you tics making your CHA come down. Dain bramage. Your Int is lowered or your WIS. Maybe you forget a language you know. Maybe you get XP drain or even that bastard of bastards a negative level or two! Maybe you have a permanent loss of a known spell because your neurons cooked off. Sorry but you'll never ever feather fall again.

I know DCC did this with mutations but maybe watching your character degrade like a line back with bad knees and a tremor in his hands is the way to go with those who dare push the magical envelope.

Imagine an ambitious mage who has to wear a ring enchanted to reduce how punchy he has become and without it he has confusion and the shakes.