The "vancian" magic system of standard D&D is not without its benefits, but for a broader type of fantasy could there be a magic resolution system that would be more broadly functional and better emulate the western tradition of myth?
Heresy. Everything about the baseline 0D&D system was perfect up until a bunch of assholes ruined it for no reason except they wanted some storygaming/snowflake/munchkin/powergamer/SJW experience!
There is no reason to change or advance anything in the system because its perfect. And anybody who disagrees is just some wuss.
Except whatever you make pundit. That stuff must be good.
I do likes me some TORG magic system but that's a stretch to paste into D&D.
Another option is the "oldey tyme" Advanced Players Guide from SSS for 3e. Magic using mana points. Magic using crits and fumbles. Magic as a skill. Gemcasters. Spellcasting resulting in physical fatigue. Animism. Geomancy. Aethercraft. Soulcasting.
I don't know that it is a perfect execution, but the creativity and inspiration starts flowing when I read this book - it might be a good start point to adapt from...
Of course, I use the terms creativity and inspiration - in the 3.x era, this was common. Lots of 3PP material, lots of free fan material (such as Steve's Spell Sheets, for example.)
This level of creativity and inspiration is woefully absent from the 5e and PF2 "communities" who seem to be more focused on being offended by words that no one cares about to begin with.
Maybe break spells down into Range/Effect/Duration with each stage costing magic points and requiring a roll (based on how many magic points you pour into it). For instance a magic missile:
Range 10' per MP (Magic Point)
Effect 1D4 for 3MP, 1D6 for 5MP, 1D8 for 7MP, 1D10 for 9MP, 1D12 for 11MP
Duration 1 point for one missile to float around (and be ready to fire) for one minute. +1MP per minute.
So let's say Merrlynn the Miraculous casts a Magic Missile with Range 50', 1D8 damage and it floats around him ready to fire for 2 minutes. That's 5MP for range, 7MP for damage and 2MP for duration.
Use whatever mechanic suits for resolution. Perhaps 1D20 + Int stat (so 18 int almost always succeeds) vs 1D20 + Magic Points spent. If player gets a higher total the spell works as required.
There's always Tunnels & Trolls and Runequest and Chivalry and Sorcery. I love how that runs together :D
Dragonquest is from the eighties so it's disqualified as story game nonsense. Storygame Productions International indeed :D
In some of the 2e Lankhmar stuff they just increased the D&D casting times. Magic Missile's not much good if it takes ten minutes to cast.
Can we give martials a westernized form of qi cultivation?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 07, 2021, 10:08:28 AM
Can we give martials a westernized form of qi cultivation?
Why?
I'd probably do a GURPS type of thing with magic where it is not that powerful in the moment but there are good reasons for it to exist and be something to dedicate one's life to. (But no substitute for a good blaster at your side). Keep it mostly operating up at the opera level and less down at the space level.
Mostly useful for Big stuff like using it to hide a planet from a deathstar or make everyone fighting a battle fall asleep.
Still kind of useful for opening a lock or shutting down a sensor or at very high levels fooling the enemy as to where you are so their shots miss.
But it should not be anything devastating
No "instant disintegration by my will"
No fifty arm whirlwind of death telekineses
No "I stopped time so now I can take this hack saw right up to your armor..."
No " I reprogrammed your death robots in but an instant"
No " Your blood is boiling!"
None of that stuff.
Now you may be able to make a thing that does that but it should be expensive and complicated and temperamental and not work very many times or have a 7 month recharge if it does have infinite shots or it ONLY WORKS in the center point of the Donyab Valley on the Planet Keth at the beginning of the wintermist season and it needs a lot of purified neo-copper to burn etc.
(https://i.imgur.com/ksoK3VS.jpg)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 06, 2021, 08:39:08 PM
Heresy. Everything about the baseline 0D&D system was perfect up until a bunch of assholes ruined it for no reason except they wanted some storygaming/snowflake/munchkin/powergamer/SJW experience!
There is no reason to change or advance anything in the system because its perfect. And anybody who disagrees is just some wuss.
Except whatever you make pundit. That stuff must be good.
Thanks! Spread the word and share the video!
Quote from: APN on December 07, 2021, 09:13:06 AM
Maybe break spells down into Range/Effect/Duration with each stage costing magic points and requiring a roll (based on how many magic points you pour into it). For instance a magic missile:
Range 10' per MP (Magic Point)
Effect 1D4 for 3MP, 1D6 for 5MP, 1D8 for 7MP, 1D10 for 9MP, 1D12 for 11MP
Duration 1 point for one missile to float around (and be ready to fire) for one minute. +1MP per minute.
So let's say Merrlynn the Miraculous casts a Magic Missile with Range 50', 1D8 damage and it floats around him ready to fire for 2 minutes. That's 5MP for range, 7MP for damage and 2MP for duration.
Use whatever mechanic suits for resolution. Perhaps 1D20 + Int stat (so 18 int almost always succeeds) vs 1D20 + Magic Points spent. If player gets a higher total the spell works as required.
Did you watch the video? I specifically call out "mana point" mechanics as boring.
A blogger named NecroPraxis came up with a magic system years ago that I used briefly in my OD&D game (before switching back for compatibility reasons). It was a die rolling system but used a pool of dice. Each magic user had a number of d6s in his pool equal to 2+Level+Charisma Mod. These dice could be rolled to cast spells which had a target number. The maximum number of dice a player could roll at any one time was limited by his level and Int, thus effectively limiting how powerful a spell that a character could possibly cast.
The catch was the any die that came up as a 1 would be exhausted and removed from the pool. This meant that the player had a choice with each casting to determine how many dice to roll, with more dice meaning a better chance of success but also a higher chance that you'll lose dice faster.
One other thing was that wands, instead of being magical weapons, aided a wizard by allowing them to reroll 1s, 2s or 3s (depending on the power level of the wand). Thus wands became an important tool but not something that grants a specific power. And a disarmed wizard can still operate but not as efficiently. You could use the idea of wands granting re-rolls to any magic system that requires a dice roll. For example, if your system uses d20, a basic wand might allow you to reroll 1s through 4s while a powerful wand could let you reroll anything. I like using rerolls because it increases you chance of success without increasing your maximum possible roll (which is something a bonus would do).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on December 07, 2021, 09:50:34 PM
A blogger named NecroPraxis came up with a magic system years ago that I used briefly in my OD&D game (before switching back for compatibility reasons). It was a die rolling system but used a pool of dice. Each magic user had a number of d6s in his pool equal to 2+Level+Charisma Mod. These dice could be rolled to cast spells which had a target number. The maximum number of dice a player could roll at any one time was limited by his level and Int, thus effectively limiting how powerful a spell that a character could possibly cast.
The catch was the any die that came up as a 1 would be exhausted and removed from the pool. This meant that the player had a choice with each casting to determine how many dice to roll, with more dice meaning a better chance of success but also a higher chance that you'll lose dice faster.
One other thing was that wands, instead of being magical weapons, aided a wizard by allowing them to reroll 1s, 2s or 3s (depending on the power level of the wand). Thus wands became an important tool but not something that grants a specific power. And a disarmed wizard can still operate but not as efficiently. You could use the idea of wands granting re-rolls to any magic system that requires a dice roll. For example, if your system uses d20, a basic wand might allow you to reroll 1s through 4s while a powerful wand could let you reroll anything. I like using rerolls because it increases you chance of success without increasing your maximum possible roll (which is something a bonus would do).
Interesting. What was the refresh rate?
All dice after 8 hours of rest?
Dice = Level after 8 hours rest?
1 die per hour of rest?
Other?
Yeah, I'm also increasingly leaning toward a caster check type of system. Mana/magic point systems don't really make sense for clerics in most settings, because they merely channel the magical energy or call on their deities to do stuff - the clerics don't draw on their own power to perform magic.
So, how many magic systems do we have here? Let's dust for prints.
Vancian (memorize spell, spell lost when cast). Classic D&D style.
Spontaneous casting (spells cast from a pool of slots). 3E/PF sorcerers, and (to an extent) 5E casters in general.
Magic point system (all spells draw from a magic resource). Too many systems to name, really. Runequest, CoC, etc.
Skill based casting (you cast using a skill check). Shadowrun (with a side of the next item).
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:17:30 PMDid you watch the video? I specifically call out "mana point" mechanics as boring.
And if you said so, it must be true!
I substitute dice rolls for games of chess. So its less boring that way.
All right Pundit you finally got to me. I've ordered Invisible College.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
So, how many magic systems do we have here? Let's dust for prints.
Vancian (memorize spell, spell lost when cast). Classic D&D style.
Spontaneous casting (spells cast from a pool of slots). 3E/PF sorcerers, and (to an extent) 5E casters in general.
Magic point system (all spells draw from a magic resource). Too many systems to name, really. Runequest, CoC, etc.
Skill based casting (you cast using a skill check). Shadowrun (with a side of the next item).
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.
Point and Skill go together in a number of systems. You need to make a skill roll, and a point cost prevents you from rolling all day.
There are also systems that consume some kind of resource other than mana points, like spell components or attribute scores. I've never seen a system that is solely based on non-mana resource consumption, so maybe it isn't a primary category.
Something else to consider is bookkeeping.
At higher levels, spell management in a Vancian system is fucking annoying. A mana pool/magic point system, or the spontaneous casting system, can be much less hassle.
One virtue of a Vancian system is the segregation by spell level encourages a wide variety of spells. You have high and low level spells, and the system encourages mixing them up because you only have a finite number of each. Conversely, a spell point system encourages spending all your points on the most effective spell or spells, and just spamming them endlessly.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.
I haven't heard that one but I like it. Imagine every spell level costs a HP to cast. 4th level spell is 4 HP. Recovered at the normal rates which means rests for Fighters and Wizards are basically the same. you could even let your Wizard cast high level spells if they are willing to pay the price.
Mix that up with the by skill casting and you can have fumbles cost double HP and magic becomes a bit unpredictable and possibly deadly.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 08, 2021, 12:52:02 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.
I haven't heard that one but I like it. Imagine every spell level costs a HP to cast. 4th level spell is 4 HP. Recovered at the normal rates which means rests for Fighters and Wizards are basically the same. you could even let your Wizard cast high level spells if they are willing to pay the price.
Mix that up with the by skill casting and you can have fumbles cost double HP and magic becomes a bit unpredictable and possibly deadly.
Shadowrun isn't exactly like that, but it's close. Every spell has a Drain Value. If you successfully cast the spell, then you have to resist the Drain by checking (I believe) your Magic + spellcasting attribute. If you succeed, no problem -- but failing causes you stun damage. Now, you can ameliorate this with stims, but it's a limited resource... and you can't heal stun damage with magic.
I don't know if it's true for 6E, but in a couple past editions you could overcast to do more damage but you'd have to resist actual physical damage with the drain check. Kind of a high-risk high reward tactic.
For me, in order for a different system to be worth the trouble, it needs to bring something to the table.
Skill-based spellcasting: each school of magic is it's own skill. Divine casters perhaps use Religion instead of schools of magic. Perhaps there are ways to apply similar schools at an increased risk of something bad happening if you want to cast a spell from a school you don't have a sufficient level of skill in. Also, skill-based allows magic duels between casters to be a bit easier since it can just be a comparison of skill checks.
Other things to consider - it'll work with regular and when dice pool mechanics. It'll work with spell crits and fumbles. It'll work with just about any type of flavor (gemcasting, soul casting, Dark Sun defiling, etc.)
The biggest concern is how to allow you to scale spells in a less fixed manner - perhaps skill checks compare to a target number that varies based upon what you want to change about the spell.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 08, 2021, 12:52:02 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.
I haven't heard that one but I like it. Imagine every spell level costs a HP to cast. 4th level spell is 4 HP. Recovered at the normal rates which means rests for Fighters and Wizards are basically the same. you could even let your Wizard cast high level spells if they are willing to pay the price.
Mix that up with the by skill casting and you can have fumbles cost double HP and magic becomes a bit unpredictable and possibly deadly.
Check out the Microlite 20 series of games. They were a hugely simplified restatement of the 3E SRD. Also for this:
Spell Level 1 2 3 4 5 6
HP cost 2 3 5 7 8 10
Spell casting HP losses cannot be magically healed but are recovered after 8 hours of sleep.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 06, 2021, 08:39:08 PM
Heresy. Everything about the baseline 0D&D system was perfect up until a bunch of assholes ruined it for no reason except they wanted some storygaming/snowflake/munchkin/powergamer/SJW experience!
There is no reason to change or advance anything in the system because its perfect. And anybody who disagrees is just some wuss.
Except whatever you make pundit. That stuff must be good.
Don't conflate powergamers with SJWs. That's not really fair.
Look at any 3.5 powergamer. They work within the system, not against it.
As for a magic system, I had an idea for one that could work, but it does have some issues. I'm not sure how to emulate the "Word" progression I have here. https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/an-interesting-spell-system/ (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/an-interesting-spell-system/)
Quote from: PsyXypher on December 08, 2021, 02:19:07 PMDon't conflate powergamers with SJWs. That's not really fair.
I was being ENTIRELY sarcastic.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 09:59:19 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:17:30 PMDid you watch the video? I specifically call out "mana point" mechanics as boring.
And if you said so, it must be true!
I substitute dice rolls for games of chess. So its less boring that way.
Mana points aren't chess. They're Accounting. There's hardly any element of strategy involved, only resource management. Even Vancian memorization is more strategic because you have to decide AHEAD of time which spells you memorize and hope you picked the right bunch.
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 08, 2021, 11:39:42 AM
All right Pundit you finally got to me. I've ordered Invisible College.
Thanks! I really hope you enjoy it!
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 02:36:49 PM
Quote from: PsyXypher on December 08, 2021, 02:19:07 PMDon't conflate powergamers with SJWs. That's not really fair.
I was being ENTIRELY sarcastic.
Oh. Alright then. My bad.
I was thinking about modification of Warhammer 2e style with certain changes to encompass lessons took from 4e, Foxhammer and DCC.
I think it can work without Winds, however you wanna divide it.
You got your Power Pool - meaning how good you are to enforce your will on whatever source of magic (obviously it won't work with very natural law systems and other natural philosophy/quasi science systems where personal might is less relevant). Roll it. Doublets means problems. Each spell has numeric level.
Rolls for Incantation, Channeling can add extra points above pool. Additional material implements can also add points.
This is less for - magic as chess, and more like magic as juggling with nukes.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 07, 2021, 09:17:30 PM
Did you watch the video? I specifically call out "mana point" mechanics as boring.
Mana points by themselves are boring, but you can add any number of mechanics on top of them to make the game more interesting. They lend themselves to this approach.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2021, 02:46:16 PMMana points aren't chess. They're Accounting.
Im being fascetious. I just find the confidence with what you dismiss things you personally dislike and prop up things that you personally like, funny.
How reliable a magic effect is and the limits of their abilities depends on the myths and such. To say magic is unreliable in myth I find is not a fully accurate statement. From my experience with russian folk-tales (and eastern ones), the proper descriptor is arbitrary.
In a folk tale 'spellcasters' don't generally 'fail' a casting roll. Baba yaga just flies always and her spells work always, but have somekind of 'undo' clause (and not always). Spirit binders from eastern mythology might need to make a ritual (generally quick), but there is no chance in will fail until some bumbler messes up the paper runes or something.
Mythological magic is.....purely a construct of narrative. A way to make it work in a game would require it to be a narritivistic 'storygame'. So we instead compromise with making it somesort of limited resource.
If you wanna frame the designwork in terms of making it strategic, thats a completly different ballpark from making it mythological.
Edit: But so far Im rolling with Savage Worlds which is a spellcheck system+spellpoints. And the powers a character has are very limited.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 12:47:14 PM
One virtue of a Vancian system is the segregation by spell level encourages a wide variety of spells. You have high and low level spells, and the system encourages mixing them up because you only have a finite number of each. Conversely, a spell point system encourages spending all your points on the most effective spell or spells, and just spamming them endlessly.
Ideally, a spell point system has higher costs for the more powerful spells - inducing a degree of conservatism in casting. If SP system casters are just able to spam the good stuff over and over; then the system shows a serious lack of playtesting...
Quote from: Jaeger on December 08, 2021, 05:38:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 12:47:14 PM
One virtue of a Vancian system is the segregation by spell level encourages a wide variety of spells. You have high and low level spells, and the system encourages mixing them up because you only have a finite number of each. Conversely, a spell point system encourages spending all your points on the most effective spell or spells, and just spamming them endlessly.
Ideally, a spell point system has higher costs for the more powerful spells - inducing a degree of conservatism in casting. If SP system casters are just able to spam the good stuff over and over; then the system shows a serious lack of playtesting...
There will still be an optimal choice, whether it's low cost and can be used as often as a fighter's sword, or whether it's high cost and must be used sparingly (which will eventually lead to the 5 min day). One of the frequently unheralded benefits of Vancian casting is there is not one optimal choice. At most, there will be one optimal choice per spell level. And because of the need to prep spells, there's a strong incentive not to just fill your third level slots with fireball, because you might need fly, so there's a further incentive toward variety.
There are other ways to create multiple local optima, but it must be carefully added to a spell point system. In a Vancian system, by contrast, it's the default.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 05:49:03 PMOne of the frequently unheralded benefits of Vancian casting is there is not one optimal choice. At most, there will be one optimal choice per spell level. And because of the need to prep spells, there's a strong incentive not to just fill your third level slots with fireball, because you might need fly, so there's a further incentive toward variety.
A completly arbitrary hoop-jumping incentive. The kind people raked 4e over the coals for. The 5 min adventuring day is unavoidable without context with any recharging resource unless there is time pressure.
Most systems outside of D&D just don't grant buckets of different abilities to spellcasters at all. The D&D spellcaster exists as a weird fusion trying to be every spellcasting type ever in a single class.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 05:01:51 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2021, 02:46:16 PMMana points aren't chess. They're Accounting.
Im being fascetious. I just find the confidence with what you dismiss things you personally dislike and prop up things that you personally like, funny.
How reliable a magic effect is and the limits of their abilities depends on the myths and such. To say magic is unreliable in myth I find is not a fully accurate statement. From my experience with russian folk-tales (and eastern ones), the proper descriptor is arbitrary.
In a folk tale 'spellcasters' don't generally 'fail' a casting roll. Baba yaga just flies always and her spells work always, but have somekind of 'undo' clause (and not always). Spirit binders from eastern mythology might need to make a ritual (generally quick), but there is no chance in will fail until some bumbler messes up the paper runes or something.
Mythological magic is.....purely a construct of narrative. A way to make it work in a game would require it to be a narritivistic 'storygame'. So we instead compromise with making it somesort of limited resource.
If you wanna frame the designwork in terms of making it strategic, thats a completly different ballpark from making it mythological.
Edit: But so far Im rolling with Savage Worlds which is a spellcheck system+spellpoints. And the powers a character has are very limited.
Modiphious 2d20 had an interesting idea for sorcery which was instead of "checking for effect" instead a sorcerer can always succeed instead you "check for consequence" to see if the spell had any unintended consequences. Backlash, loss of control, other effect than what was intended etc. It might be possible to to come up with a system where the spell always goes off in the osr kind of like D&D but instead of limited use you suffer some kind of consequence to spellcasting. Mana systems aren't bad in that regard but could also do a strain type system, or a sort of wild magic table.
It is worth noting that ttrpgs are kinda awful at soft magic unless magic is purely an npc thing.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 05:49:03 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on December 08, 2021, 05:38:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 12:47:14 PM
One virtue of a Vancian system is the segregation by spell level encourages a wide variety of spells. You have high and low level spells, and the system encourages mixing them up because you only have a finite number of each. Conversely, a spell point system encourages spending all your points on the most effective spell or spells, and just spamming them endlessly.
Ideally, a spell point system has higher costs for the more powerful spells - inducing a degree of conservatism in casting. If SP system casters are just able to spam the good stuff over and over; then the system shows a serious lack of playtesting...
There will still be an optimal choice, whether it's low cost and can be used as often as a fighter's sword, or whether it's high cost and must be used sparingly (which will eventually lead to the 5 min day). One of the frequently unheralded benefits of Vancian casting is there is not one optimal choice. At most, there will be one optimal choice per spell level. And because of the need to prep spells, there's a strong incentive not to just fill your third level slots with fireball, because you might need fly, so there's a further incentive toward variety.
There are other ways to create multiple local optima, but it must be carefully added to a spell point system. In a Vancian system, by contrast, it's the default.
The "optimal" argument shows up mostly in MMOs and 10 foot room with an orc scenarios and is usually framed in terms of dps. In an RPG, even in a simple system the optimal choice is very likely to be circumstantial. Suppose you have spells that can slow your enemy, do damage, heal, create a barrier, summon help, buff your friend, alter the battlefield, call for help, flee, paralyze, do damage over time, set something on fire, etc., etc., etc. Which one is optimal? It's always going to depend a great deal on the situation. A system with one optimal spell for all circumstances is exceptionally poorly designed.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 05:55:24 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 05:49:03 PMOne of the frequently unheralded benefits of Vancian casting is there is not one optimal choice. At most, there will be one optimal choice per spell level. And because of the need to prep spells, there's a strong incentive not to just fill your third level slots with fireball, because you might need fly, so there's a further incentive toward variety.
A completly arbitrary hoop-jumping incentive. The kind people raked 4e over the coals for. The 5 min adventuring day is unavoidable without context with any recharging resource unless there is time pressure.
Most systems outside of D&D just don't grant buckets of different abilities to spellcasters at all. The D&D spellcaster exists as a weird fusion trying to be every spellcasting type ever in a single class.
It's not arbitrary, it's a design that encourages spellcasters to use a variety of different spells.
But it's true that the D&D spellcaster is too much all at once. That's the source of 99.99% of the balance problems, not to mention the difficulty in making new spellcasters seem unique and flavorful. The first step toward making different spellcasters feel unique is to ditch the generalist mage (the biggest sin of 2e). Give every spellcaster a constrained, unique spell list, and suddenly they'll all feel very different.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 05:55:24 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 05:49:03 PMOne of the frequently unheralded benefits of Vancian casting is there is not one optimal choice. At most, there will be one optimal choice per spell level. And because of the need to prep spells, there's a strong incentive not to just fill your third level slots with fireball, because you might need fly, so there's a further incentive toward variety.
A completly arbitrary hoop-jumping incentive. The kind people raked 4e over the coals for. The 5 min adventuring day is unavoidable without context with any recharging resource unless there is time pressure.
Most systems outside of D&D just don't grant buckets of different abilities to spellcasters at all. The D&D spellcaster exists as a weird fusion trying to be every spellcasting type ever in a single class.
I mean, if you recover all of your Mana/Power Points/Energy at once, yes. If the system you have allows for a PC to regain them maybe once per hour (sorta like how Psionics worked in 2nd) then you'd have that be less of a problem. That, or make a way for there to be back up magical energy, in the form of Powerstones or Mana Potions.
A homebrew system my GM ran had magical energy regenerate very quickly, so if you went nova and blasted out a whole bunch of spells you'd have to flail around for a few rounds to get it back.
Quote from: Mishihari on December 08, 2021, 06:02:28 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 05:49:03 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on December 08, 2021, 05:38:37 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 12:47:14 PM
One virtue of a Vancian system is the segregation by spell level encourages a wide variety of spells. You have high and low level spells, and the system encourages mixing them up because you only have a finite number of each. Conversely, a spell point system encourages spending all your points on the most effective spell or spells, and just spamming them endlessly.
Ideally, a spell point system has higher costs for the more powerful spells - inducing a degree of conservatism in casting. If SP system casters are just able to spam the good stuff over and over; then the system shows a serious lack of playtesting...
There will still be an optimal choice, whether it's low cost and can be used as often as a fighter's sword, or whether it's high cost and must be used sparingly (which will eventually lead to the 5 min day). One of the frequently unheralded benefits of Vancian casting is there is not one optimal choice. At most, there will be one optimal choice per spell level. And because of the need to prep spells, there's a strong incentive not to just fill your third level slots with fireball, because you might need fly, so there's a further incentive toward variety.
There are other ways to create multiple local optima, but it must be carefully added to a spell point system. In a Vancian system, by contrast, it's the default.
The "optimal" argument shows up mostly in MMOs and 10 foot room with an orc scenarios and is usually framed in terms of dps. In an RPG, even in a simple system the optimal choice is very likely to be circumstantial. Suppose you have spells that can slow your enemy, do damage, heal, create a barrier, summon help, buff your friend, alter the battlefield, call for help, flee, paralyze, do damage over time, set something on fire, etc., etc., etc. Which one is optimal? It's always going to depend a great deal on the situation. A system with one optimal spell for all circumstances is exceptionally poorly designed.
You're missing the point. I want a variety of spell effects, not all of them optimal. If you have broad generalist mages and a spell point system, then there will always be an optimal choice in every situation, and it will be the same optimal choice for all spellcasters. That's the kind of generic blandness I'm talking about, because the only real variety becomes player skill. I want spellcasters to feel different, and to sometimes have to make choices that don't involve the optimal choice. If the only spell you have memorized that's leftover is waterbreathing, how can you leverage it to help win a contest at the fair, or save the village from an invasion of wereboars?
Part of this is limiting and constraining the effects each type of caster has available, but it's also about limiting which spells can be used when. A spell point system with free choice of any spell is another half of the generalist mage problem.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:03:10 PMIt's not arbitrary, it's a design that encourages spellcasters to use a variety of different spells.
Well its arbitrary in terms of logical feel. Its also a forced arbitrary limitation like saying 'You can't use your silver sword against the werewolf because I feel you guys running away now would be cooler'.
QuoteThe first step toward making different spellcasters feel unique is to ditch the generalist mage (the biggest sin of 2e).
2e codified it, but its not like each previous edition had purely specialized spell lists based on purely specialized classes.
Quote from: PsyXypher on December 08, 2021, 06:10:05 PMI mean, if you recover all of your Mana/Power Points/Energy at once, yes. If the system you have allows for a PC to regain them maybe once per hour (sorta like how Psionics worked in 2nd) then you'd have that be less of a problem.
If magic works the way it does in D&D, then you basically have extremly OP characters all the time. That just storm through everything unless there is a nonstop slog of combat.
Quote from: Ocule on December 08, 2021, 05:58:40 PMIt is worth noting that ttrpgs are kinda awful at soft magic unless magic is purely an npc thing.
Yup.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 06:15:18 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:03:10 PMIt's not arbitrary, it's a design that encourages spellcasters to use a variety of different spells.
Well its arbitrary in terms of logical feel. Its also a forced arbitrary limitation like saying 'You can't use your silver sword against the werewolf because I feel you guys running away now would be cooler'.
No, that's a DM explicitly telling the players they can't do something because of plot. It's pretty much the worst thing you can do in an old school game because it takes away all agency from the players.
The other is a set of ground rules for how the world works that are established at the start of the game and consistently applied. It's literally what old school games do best -- establish a coherent world over which the players gain power as they begin to understand how things work. It's sometimes called player skill, but I dislike that framing.
Here's that blog post from necropraxis. I'll have to try this out.
https://www.necropraxis.com/2013/11/01/spell-dice/
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:31:36 PMThe other is a set of ground rules for how the world works that are established at the start of the game and consistently applied. It's literally what old school games do best -- establish a coherent world over which the players gain power as they begin to understand how things work. It's sometimes called player skill, but I dislike that framing.
A per/day power slot based system is one of the most gamey systems I have seen in RPGs in terms of organic worldbuilding or mapping to any sort of literature or myth. 'I don't like you guys using optimal strategies so I apply this utterly arbitrary limitation on why you wouldn't use it'.
And I know you dislike framing player skill as a thing that exists.
The reason most modern RPGs turn away from a focus on player skill is because they then compete with videogames, which do that better and faster.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 06:15:18 PM
If magic works the way it does in D&D, then you basically have extremly OP characters all the time. That just storm through everything unless there is a nonstop slog of combat.
Consider that you could say, nerf magic to account for that, I'm not sure if that's really an issue.
There's a few ways you could go about this. One is that you cap how much Mana you can have at time. If you can only cast around six spells in an encounter (and there's no guarantee you'll recover fully before your next fight) you'll probably be extra careful on how you use that energy. Your mage might decide it's time to pull out the shortbow instead of using that energy to cast Magic Missile. Or maybe your cleric decides to pull out his mace so he can see who needs healing at the end of the fight.
Quote from: PsyXypher on December 08, 2021, 06:45:40 PMConsider that you could say, nerf magic to account for that, I'm not sure if that's really an issue.
It isn't. This is me having a laugh at the question. Like of course there are much better systems for magic then D&D/OSR. Its largely stuck with for nostalgia.
I prefer fewer spells known, and spell points instead of slots. In 5e, I'm trying a system in which 1st level spells cost 1 sp, 3rd level spells cost 3 sp, etc.
Only caveat (that already exists in the system) is that you can only cast one spell of level 6, 7, 8 and 9 per day. In theory you could spam 5th level spells, but this is seldom the best idea.
Another advantage is that you can fix the "5 min workday" by giving back a few SP per short rest.
Magicians are differentiated by spells known, and also "signature spells", etc.
Vancian is a bit more flavorful but requires more bookkeeping.
Other option I've tried is making a d20 roll against spell level, etc., witch chances of spell mishap. This adds another layer to strategy: sure, a big fireball would take care of our enemies, but what if it goes wrong?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 06:44:26 PM
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:31:36 PMThe other is a set of ground rules for how the world works that are established at the start of the game and consistently applied. It's literally what old school games do best -- establish a coherent world over which the players gain power as they begin to understand how things work. It's sometimes called player skill, but I dislike that framing.
A per/day power slot based system is one of the most gamey systems I have seen in RPGs in terms of organic worldbuilding or mapping to any sort of literature or myth. 'I don't like you guys using optimal strategies so I apply this utterly arbitrary limitation on why you wouldn't use it'.
And I know you dislike framing player skill as a thing that exists.
The reason most modern RPGs turn away from a focus on player skill is because they then compete with videogames, which do that better and faster.
Hit points are a far more gamey system. And they don't map closely to any sort of literature or myth.
And yet they're enormously successful.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 07:57:13 PMHit points are a far more gamey system.
Id say Vanician spells are still significantly worse. And if the angle is success, they are seen in D&D and nothing else.
If going in a pure 'Fuck reality this is a game for you to master, not a attempt at world silumation', then OSR is really not up there.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 08, 2021, 12:52:02 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.
I haven't heard that one but I like it. Imagine every spell level costs a HP to cast. 4th level spell is 4 HP. Recovered at the normal rates which means rests for Fighters and Wizards are basically the same. you could even let your Wizard cast high level spells if they are willing to pay the price.
Mix that up with the by skill casting and you can have fumbles cost double HP and magic becomes a bit unpredictable and possibly deadly.
If I remember correctly, spellcasting costs fatigue points in C&S. Moreover, there was an OGL Ancients book from Mongoose in which casting cost hit points.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 07:57:13 PMHit points are a far more gamey system. And they don't map closely to any sort of literature or myth.
And yet they're enormously successful.
The hit point system is something that's interacted with multiple times per round as every PC and monster has to be tracked according to how much damage it has taken. So the damage system needs to be streamlined as much as possible as a more complex system could grind down play speed too much.
A spell system, OTOH, might only be used once every couple of round meaning that there is room for more complicated rules without bogging down the game.
Sure magic rules can be complicated, but do they need to be?
I like the system from World of Dungeons. You have two spirits that you can summon through an hour-long ritual, from an item in which they are trapped, or by drinking a dose of a mild poison and addictive drug. This last option you can take a number of times per day equal to your level without risk of health side effects.
The spirits each have two domains of power, like flame, shadow, secrets, water, etc. This helps define what they can do for you.
It's pretty free-form and allows for player creativity, which is always good.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 08, 2021, 06:51:44 PM
Quote from: PsyXypher on December 08, 2021, 06:45:40 PMConsider that you could say, nerf magic to account for that, I'm not sure if that's really an issue.
It isn't. This is me having a laugh at the question. Like of course there are much better systems for magic then D&D/OSR. Its largely stuck with for nostalgia.
I think it's less nostalgia and more "This literally wouldn't be Dungeons & Dragons if you got rid of this thing that's been here since day one."
It'd be like removing classes or removing hit points and replacing it with a completely different system.
Quote from: PsyXypher on December 12, 2021, 01:54:31 PMI think it's less nostalgia and more "This literally wouldn't be Dungeons & Dragons if you got rid of this thing that's been here since day one."
But we are talking OSR. D&D can be D&D. But inspirations and spiritual continuations are in their right mind to make improvements.
Quote from: PsyXypher on December 12, 2021, 01:54:31 PM
I think it's less nostalgia and more "This literally wouldn't be Dungeons & Dragons if you got rid of this thing that's been here since day one."
It'd be like removing classes or removing hit points and replacing it with a completely different system.
In OSR games people do those things.
I really like any magic system that makes magic weird and dangerous and unpredictable.
I enjoy the UA 3E magic system - very flexible without being OP (but you have to use the mechanics to make it work - you couldn't port it). However, while it feels realistic, it isn't "real" in the sense that it looks like anything anyone in the real world has done/done to create magic (though it seems real - I can't explain it better).
If I recall correctly Pundit's system is a lot of downtime work to create a weird effect, involving a lab and creepy stuff. Kudos to pundit for at least trying something different.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:11:10 PM
... I want spellcasters to feel different, and to sometimes have to make choices that don't involve the optimal choice. If the only spell you have memorized that's leftover is waterbreathing, how can you leverage it to help win a contest at the fair, or save the village from an invasion of wereboars?
To play devils advocate:
In that situation if the only spell leftover was waterbreathing, most players did not view that as the result of a choice "making the spellcasters feel different."
It was viewed as a wasted spell slot.
When WotC came around with their survey's players couldn't check the 'this is not fun!' box fast enough.
Components, having to learn all spells in-game, even the AD&D round segments with casting times leaving magic users open to interruption, were all used as checks to the magic users power.
They were all whittled away by WotC until by 5e none of those checks are there anymore. Generally by player demand.
Original D&D style Vancian casting has been seen more and more as limited and boring because it does not let players emulate the style of 'wizard' that is now commonly seen in media.
Quote from: Pat on December 08, 2021, 06:11:10 PM
Part of this is limiting and constraining the effects each type of caster has available, but it's also about limiting which spells can be used when. A spell point system with free choice of any spell is another half of the generalist mage problem.
IMHO free spell choice is a problem with all magic systems that allow it.
The trick is that for early D&D when and what spells became "available" to learn was largely GM fiat.
Which was another reason players agitated for that restriction to be gone.
IMHO any system that makes it a requirement to learn spells in game would do well to have a table that is rolled on when the PC's do research, so as to maintain a sense of player-facing neutrality for the game.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 11:44:05 AM
Something else to consider is bookkeeping.
At higher levels, spell management in a Vancian system is fucking annoying. A mana pool/magic point system, or the spontaneous casting system, can be much less hassle.
IMHO, he trick is to make the hassle worth the payoff in play at the table, and if possible have it serve double duty as a check on the power level of the magic PC.
One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:
So you roll to cast vs a DC.
But each spell costs a certain amount of 'stress' to cast. (call it strain, or whatever)
MU can cast as much as they want: (The conceit is that they are "channeling" the elemental powers of creation.)
But they always rack up 'stress'...
The Stress track comes into play when the PC's fail when the caster rolls a "1"...
Roll on a table where the PC rolls a 1d12 (or whatever) but the amount of stress accrued by the caster
is added to the roll.This table has various effects for how badly the caster has fucked themselves by racking up stress casting their spells.
Everything from causing themselves harm, losing control with varying effects, to outright uncontrolled channeling effects where the caster can go up like roman candle.
Essentially the idea is that magical casters are essentially time bombs waiting to go off if they get too profligate when channeling the elemental forces.
Casters would be somewhat powerful, but this is always tempered by the fact that at any given time there is a 1 in 20 chance that the caster will lose his shit to some degree.
So the more a caster pushes their luck before they have a chance to rest and reduce their stress; (a mechanic for that would be needed) The greater the chance that they will face harsh consequences when they pooch a casting or rather "channeling" roll.
Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.
I'm happy with the spell design system in D6; can handle on the fly design like marvel hero powers or do the drawn out ritual prescription and memorization that most find familiar. I use a different variation of the D6 meta physics, magic, miracles, psionics and force rules for different types of casters. I prefer free-form or generalized rather than having endless tomes with spells like "ralph's purple fist size screaming skull meteors" and "Bob's green screaming skull town crier enhancer". With D6 I can tailor the details to the player/character so if you like overly specific spells you memorize you can go that route and play with spell design in advance, if you are more of a doctor strange you can do your spell design on the fly, it's the same chart and process really.
Honestly, I quite liked the Ars Magica system for longer-term campaigns; it went through a zillion editions and even got fucked a bit by White Wolf and it's been years so my memory is fuzzy, but:
For casting, you had a Latin verb and noun and combined them. For example Creo for create and Ignem for fire - together they make fire. You'd have ranks in Creo or Ignem, and you'd add a 1d10 roll - each 5 was a level of effect, something like 5 was a hand-sized fire all the way up to 30 for a room-sized fire, something like that.
Casting was either spontaneous like the above, or a "spell", which was a pre-written version of the above and which gave you a bonus to your roll. So if you were always creating hand-sized bits of fire you'd make it into a spell. But that wouldn't be a room-sized fireball.
If you failed your roll you could either let the casting simply fizzle out, or you could expend fatigue levels, one for each 5 it was failed by. So the mage who stayed within their abilities all the time could be casting all day without trouble. The one who pushed themselves got tired out and eventually fell over.
There was also vis which was magical essence, to be found in magical places and creatures. You could use this to boost your casting rolls, and it was also necessary to make an effect permanent. if you just wanted to have a hand-sized fire burning on a torch that was just your casting as above, but once it ran out of fuel it'd go out. If you wanted an eternal flame you'd need some Creo or Ignem vis. Time to go kill a dragon and take out its lungs, or something.
And yes, this meant that healing was not permanent without vis. People in Ars Magica were very much mortal.
The mage improved their magical skills by spending three-month seasons studying books or vis or researching generally. Players also had a Companion (non-magical PC) and Grog (basically hirelings) whom they could play. The magi settled down into "covenants" - pretty much like monasteries. Every year or two they'd need to go on an adventure so they could return to their covenant to study or make magical items or the like. And there was a bit of management with the covenant, and diplomacy with local nobles and clergy.
It was quite fun, I thought, but much more suited to in-depth and long-term play than typical "old school" stuff which works fine as an open game table of pretty casual players.
Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells? DCC has something like that.
This is pure sadism, but let people overuse magic but the cost is the worst thing in the world. Long lasting penalties a lah the old withered arm. Spells might give you an ugly face or give you tics making your CHA come down. Dain bramage. Your Int is lowered or your WIS. Maybe you forget a language you know. Maybe you get XP drain or even that bastard of bastards a negative level or two! Maybe you have a permanent loss of a known spell because your neurons cooked off. Sorry but you'll never ever feather fall again.
I know DCC did this with mutations but maybe watching your character degrade like a line back with bad knees and a tremor in his hands is the way to go with those who dare push the magical envelope.
Imagine an ambitious mage who has to wear a ring enchanted to reduce how punchy he has become and without it he has confusion and the shakes.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 04, 2022, 01:07:11 AM
Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells? DCC has something like that.
I believe White Hack does this also.
For
D&D though, that would probably also require adjusting Hit Points to be more equal among classes, since Magic-users would ostensibly burn through them as readily as fighters. Hit Points are a pretty major player in D&D's rule engine, so that move likely warrants extreme care.
Quote from: Zalman on January 04, 2022, 09:55:30 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 04, 2022, 01:07:11 AM
Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells? DCC has something like that.
I believe White Hack does this also.
For D&D though, that would probably also require adjusting Hit Points to be more equal among classes, since Magic-users would ostensibly burn through them as readily as fighters. Hit Points are a pretty major player in D&D's rule engine, so that move likely warrants extreme care.
Microlite20 does this by giving all classes the same hit points.
Quote from: palaeomerus on January 04, 2022, 05:54:10 AM
This is pure sadism, but let people overuse magic but the cost is the worst thing in the world. Long lasting penalties a lah the old withered arm. Spells might give you an ugly face or give you tics making your CHA come down. Dain bramage. Your Int is lowered or your WIS. Maybe you forget a language you know. Maybe you get XP drain or even that bastard of bastards a negative level or two! Maybe you have a permanent loss of a known spell because your neurons cooked off. Sorry but you'll never ever feather fall again.
I know DCC did this with mutations but maybe watching your character degrade like a line back with bad knees and a tremor in his hands is the way to go with those who dare push the magical envelope.
Imagine an ambitious mage who has to wear a ring enchanted to reduce how punchy he has become and without it he has confusion and the shakes.
Shades of Stross's Laundry Files, where if you don't use implements to cast spells, microscopic eldritch critters begin to eat your brains.
Quote from: Pat on January 04, 2022, 11:56:15 AM
Quote from: Zalman on January 04, 2022, 09:55:30 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 04, 2022, 01:07:11 AM
Burning Hit Points, to Cast Spells? DCC has something like that.
I believe White Hack does this also.
For D&D though, that would probably also require adjusting Hit Points to be more equal among classes, since Magic-users would ostensibly burn through them as readily as fighters. Hit Points are a pretty major player in D&D's rule engine, so that move likely warrants extreme care.
Microlite20 does this by giving all classes the same hit points.
You beat me to it. Microlite deserves more accolades. IIRC, HP lost from spells heals quicker than HP lost from o wounds? Or did I make that up?
Quote from: Jaeger on January 02, 2022, 07:16:03 PM
One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:
So you roll to cast vs a DC.
But each spell costs a certain amount of 'stress' to cast. (call it strain, or whatever)
MU can cast as much as they want: (The conceit is that they are "channeling" the elemental powers of creation.)
But they always rack up 'stress'...
The Stress track comes into play when the PC's fail when the caster rolls a "1"...
Roll on a table where the PC rolls a 1d12 (or whatever) but the amount of stress accrued by the caster is added to the roll.
This table has various effects for how badly the caster has fucked themselves by racking up stress casting their spells.
Everything from causing themselves harm, losing control with varying effects, to outright uncontrolled channeling effects where the caster can go up like roman candle.
Essentially the idea is that magical casters are essentially time bombs waiting to go off if they get too profligate when channeling the elemental forces.
Casters would be somewhat powerful, but this is always tempered by the fact that at any given time there is a 1 in 20 chance that the caster will lose his shit to some degree.
So the more a caster pushes their luck before they have a chance to rest and reduce their stress; (a mechanic for that would be needed) The greater the chance that they will face harsh consequences when they pooch a casting or rather "channeling" roll.
Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.
This is a great idea. I would ditch the casting roll vs DC, and just roll a D20 to see if a 1 came up.
Quote from: Aglondir on January 13, 2022, 10:28:14 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on January 02, 2022, 07:16:03 PM
One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:
So you roll to cast vs a DC. ...
... Blah, blah, blah, me, me, me...
Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.
This is a great idea. I would ditch the casting roll vs DC, and just roll a D20 to see if a 1 came up.
Thanks.
My conceit behind also having a casting roll vs DC it to reinforce how chaotic magic is in the game. A 'normal' miscast would result in slightly annoying but rather mild consequences like having added stress with no spell cast, to losing a turn, etc..
i.e. 'Channeling' elemental forces is an uncertain and dangerous thing. IMHO is is useful to have more than one check as it were on caster power. And also if melee and ranged attacks have to be rolled by fighters and filthy bards; why should magic users get a pass? And it keeps things mechanically consistent across the board.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 06, 2021, 08:39:08 PM
Heresy. Everything about the baseline 0D&D system was perfect up until a bunch of assholes ruined it for no reason except they wanted some storygaming/snowflake/munchkin/powergamer/SJW experience!
There is no reason to change or advance anything in the system because its perfect. And anybody who disagrees is just some wuss.
Except whatever you make pundit. That stuff must be good.
While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion,
Were Claw Law and Spell Law books ever any good?
Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2022, 03:49:49 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on January 13, 2022, 10:28:14 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on January 02, 2022, 07:16:03 PM
One Idea I am toying with was inspired by the stress track in Blades in the Dark:
So you roll to cast vs a DC. ...
... Blah, blah, blah, me, me, me...
Naturally this is a rough idea - refinement would be needed before a solid playtest.
This is a great idea. I would ditch the casting roll vs DC, and just roll a D20 to see if a 1 came up.
Thanks.
My conceit behind also having a casting roll vs DC it to reinforce how chaotic magic is in the game. A 'normal' miscast would result in slightly annoying but rather mild consequences like having added stress with no spell cast, to losing a turn, etc..
i.e. 'Channeling' elemental forces is an uncertain and dangerous thing. IMHO is is useful to have more than one check as it were on caster power. And also if melee and ranged attacks have to be rolled by fighters and filthy bards; why should magic users get a pass? And it keeps things mechanically consistent across the board.
Then you might want to rethink saves. Swords attacks are driven by attack rolls made by the attacker, while defense contributes a passive component (AC is basically a target number). Conversely OSR magic is automatic, but allows resistance by the target (a save). Both boil down to a single roll to see if it succeeds. A simple system can have different mechanics for different things, with different assumptions, but should avoiding stacking too many things into each action. Keeping it at the single roll threshold is useful for equal balance/opportunity, plus most people's grasp of probability breaks down when results are contingent on a series of rolls.
Quote from: Pat on January 18, 2022, 04:08:20 PM
Then you might want to rethink saves. Swords attacks are driven by attack rolls made by the attacker, while defense contributes a passive component (AC is basically a target number). Conversely OSR magic is automatic, but allows resistance by the target (a save). Both boil down to a single roll to see if it succeeds. A simple system can have different mechanics for different things, with different assumptions, but should avoiding stacking too many things into each action. Keeping it at the single roll threshold is useful for equal balance/opportunity, plus most people's grasp of probability breaks down when results are contingent on a series of rolls.
You are correct, "saves" would have to work much like they did in 4e.
I have no problem with that. As this allows certain spells to work vs AC anyway.
I watched the video and I'll admit The Invisible College magic is intriguing, and I love magic vs difficulty systems in general.
I haven't picked up the Invisible College yet, though i intend to, as i had an interest in the subject for many years, so i'm not sure how the
use of magic is worked into it, but leaving aside the Golden Dawn, King Solomon's Goetia or Abramelin the Mage's old tomes... sometimes just
plain old fashioned fairy tales and folk magic can be an interesting basis for a magic system, though it takes a bit of work.
Many years ago i'd ran a campaign set in an ancient, fantasy version of Ireland, complete with lime pools for the heads on ones enemies,
talking cats, giants foul to fight and fair to dispense often backhanded gifts, plenty of druids, holly and mistletoe, Faerie kingdoms just beyond sight,
cauldrons that would revive dead soldiers (as King Matholwch and others liked to use), Harps that could play on their own, and a magic system
based around old Irish myth and legends. Spells were rare and rather involved, but as long as you could go through the motions if you knew the
spell you could pull it off. For example, here's a few we used taken from Irish fairy tales and spells written by Lady Wilde (Oscar's mother).
Invisibility ... to become invisible you must acquire a ravens heart, split it open with a black-hafted knife and make on it three cuts, in each cut
you will place a bean, then plant it. When it sprouts put a bean in your mouth and say the following incantation...
"By virtue of Satan's art... and the strength of mine great art... i desire to be invisible!"
and so it shall be for as long as the bean is kept in your mouth (can make up your own stipulations as to how long they can do it)
To find stolen goods ... place two keys on a sieve in the form of a cross, two will hold the sieve while a third makes the sign of the cross on
the suspected party and calls out his name three times. If innocent the key will remain motionless, but if guilty the key will revolve
about the sieve and you know then they are guilty.
To Fly ... an enchanted red cap is needed along with a sprig of yarrow will be tossed while reciting the incantation seated upon a rod or twig..
"by Yarrow and Rue... and my red cap too... hie me o'er to (Destination)." A spell used by the witches in Shemus Rua.
Had a whole book of such spells worked out, usually against the PC's as they never learned how to cast more than a few, but it allows you to be
really creative with the magic you can challenge the players with, someday i'd like to do the same in a Finnish setting. Extra work but that was one
of the more memorable campaigns we had back in the day.
Thanks guys, hope you pick up the book soon!
I had an idea for a system that is similar to Vancian, but a bit more to my liking than magical amnesia.
"Scroll reader magic".
The idea is that like normal people a scroll reader mage can read a scroll, get the magic effect, and the scroll erases itself. However, this mage has X-amount of scrolls-per-day that will re-write themselves after 24 hours and be useable again. This mage can make a single scroll be useful for the mage's entire life. The mage collects as many scrolls as possible, binding them up as pages in a single book they carry around.
I might even add a rule that after their scrolls-per-day are used up the scroll reader can still read a scroll and it only has a 15% chance to be permanently erased like a normal scroll, with an additional +15% chance per scroll used. I.E. your third scroll read after running out of scrolls-per-day has a 45% chance to be lost, and your fourth scroll is a 60% chance to be gone for good.
Naturally, if you own 37 see in the dark scrolls, and 1 fireball, it doesn't matter that you want to cast 2, or more fireballs a day. You just can't because that's all you book has in it.
There is no better magic system than what OD&D created.
However, there are many different magic systems available.
At best, it's a matter of taste and perhaps what works best for a particular setting.
After four decades of gaming, I don't even have a favorite magic system as each has its own advantages, disadvantages and idiosyncrasies.
Quote from: Ruprecht on December 08, 2021, 12:52:02 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 08, 2021, 08:21:21 AM
Fatigue based casting (spells draw on an endurance/fatigue mechanic, and can leave your PC exhausted). SR and a couple other systems.
I haven't heard that one but I like it. Imagine every spell level costs a HP to cast. 4th level spell is 4 HP. Recovered at the normal rates which means rests for Fighters and Wizards are basically the same. you could even let your Wizard cast high level spells if they are willing to pay the price.
Mix that up with the by skill casting and you can have fumbles cost double HP and magic becomes a bit unpredictable and possibly deadly.
I always thought the old Sovereign Stone magic system was fun. Mages could cast their spells as much as they wanted, no /day or MP or anything. It could fatigue them though.
Spells had a Casting Threshold. The more powerful the spell, the higher the CT. You rolled a d20 + spell casting modifier (any bonuses or penalties from other sources). The roll results accumulated over successive rounds and the spell goes off once you hit the CT value. So if you need a 28 for a fireball and get an 18 on round 1 you roll next round to try and get the last 10pts needed. If you only get an 8 then you can keep going on round 3.
Every round you spend casting you need to make a Fortitude save. The save DC goes up by 1 each successive round you spend casting. Every time you fail the save you take 1d4 subdual damage. So you can potentially knock yourself out casting a spell if you can't hit the CT in a reasonable amount of time.
I really liked the Earthdawn magic system. It was heavily tied to its setting and combined several aspects of magic, such as replicating and thread weaving to create something that felt far more fleshed out than D&D or any of its direct derivatives.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 06, 2021, 08:29:17 PM
The "vancian" magic system of standard D&D is not without its benefits, but for a broader type of fantasy could there be a magic resolution system that would be more broadly functional and better emulate the western tradition of myth?
Have the right components, spend some time, and make a success check the odds of which are based on level, an ability, or level in a class.
For the purpose of this post let's call it a ritual even if it can be done within a combat round. Spells will be considered traditional D&D spells regardless of edition.
Rituals have an effect. Effects can be random, based on the components used, based on the what determines the odds of success, can be based on the class, skills, or attributed used. Can based on setting circumstances like phases of the moon, or stellar alignments.
Rituals may not have a relationship which each being it own special things that are separate.
Rituals may have a relationship organized as a series of prerequisites.
Rituals may organized into colleges, arts, schools, etc.
Rituals may be organized by difficulty.
And so on. But in my opinion the heart of "casting" magic in western myth (as opposed to having magic as a inborn power) is that you need to have gathered the right stuff (component) take some amount of time (doing the steps of the spells), and finally have the skill to pull all this off.
And you have to look carefully whether the magic described is something that inborn or learned. As inborn powers are effectively fantasy superpowers.
The starting point in my opinion is to describe how it works if the individual was standing there seeing all this play out. Then devise the mechanic to fit the description. This avoids creating dice games that only work by game logic.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 06, 2021, 08:29:17 PM
The "vancian" magic system of standard D&D is not without its benefits, but for a broader type of fantasy could there be a magic resolution system that would be more broadly functional and better emulate the western tradition of myth?
Whoa, for a second there I thought that I was reading an article from a 1980's issue of Dragon. ;D
You can tailor your spellcasting to whatever system fits your genre the best. The thing is that after almost five decades of D&D, that D&D itself is a genre and "vancian" casting is the standard. If you deviate from that standard far enough, you will lose people interested in playing the game.
The only modification to spellcasting that has stood the test of time for me has been what we called "The Cocaine Rule". Once your spell slots were used up, a magic-user could still cast spells but the cost was in hit points of damage per level of the spell cast.
Quote from: jeff37923 on February 23, 2022, 11:29:17 AM
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You can tailor your spellcasting to whatever system fits your genre the best. The thing is that after almost five decades of D&D, that D&D itself is a genre and "vancian" casting is the standard. If you deviate from that standard far enough, you will lose people interested in playing the game.
...
People have ever been complaining of D&D's influence in the hobby, and the lack of D&D players willingness to try other systems.
It might be just me but the past few years this effect seems even more prevalent.
I've seen lots of commentary about players just not playing anything unless it's 5e D&D.
In the 90' and early 2000's It used to be players that had issues finding a GM that didn't run D&D. Now I see lots of comments to the effect that it is GM's that are having issues finding players interested in non-D&D games...
Largely anecdotal, but IMHO the new 5e player base seems to be separating itself from the rest of the RPG hobby far more than it used to be in the past.
Pocket Fantasy uses battle magic and freeform magic.
In combat a Wizard gets 2 spells per battle. They're chosen from a fixed list of 6 spells. Two buffs for friendliest, a direct damage spell, an area effect spell, a crowd control spell, and a summon pet monster.
Out of combat you get two spells per session that can be anything the GM will allow. The GM sets a difficulty level, and the Wizard rolls a skill check to cast that spell.