TheRPGSite

I'm curious of what everyone here would think.

The setup:  A GM who has trouble with actually knowing  the rules of the systems he runs and gives up 1-4 sessions in to any campaign he runs is doing  a large White Wolf game because he claims to know the system and setting.

I have skipped out but some of the 40K crowd I normally play with that day are rather distasteful people and the WW game is closer and I know everyone present.

I'm allowed to bring my now retired from LARP WW character with all his XP and such into this just started campaign.  (Roughly 3x the XP the existing players have.)

As is most games' wont, the first 90 minutes are mostly eating and talking.  There are 10 people in the room, 2 not playing, 8 playing.   The start is a combat I am not involved in since I am not there yet.  (Ive spent most of the previous 90 rewriting my character since I now know the game better than I did when I made the character with help for a Con LARP that I kept playing in that group's Chronicle.)

One of the not playing people wants to go for coffee and doesn't know the area so I offer to drive since I am not involved in what little has gone on yet, and its 10 minutes away or so.

We come back and they have just finished the fight.  I settle in, and start working on the model kit I brought as to not be an attention whore character, plus while I knew everyone there, I was joining this group.  I can comfortably listen and build at the same time.  There are 7 other PCs.

Everyone is still babbling away mostly.  I'm brought in with little explanation of how or why I have showed up at the place the rest of the party is.  My PC walks in, looks about, then sits down in a chair.  He doesn't know any of the few PCs in the lounge room, and the one he does know just walked upstairs.  One PC tries pickpocketing me and then starts talking to me and then another walks in and spots her, and some RP happens.  My character obviously doesn't know WTF is going on and is wondering why the pickpocketer (who mostly wanted to know who my character was as opposed to trying to steal from me) claims to know me, while 2 other PCs are trying to RP to each other across the table while everyone else is yammering away, mostly on things that have squat to do with the game.

Some NPCs walk in, and open fire on us, and we take some damage.  The GM then walks out, probably to check on something since there was a rules question about damage, defense, and armor bits.  Everyone goes back to OT babbling while I continue to assemble my little robot model.

The GM comes back in with some Werewolf style card game and immediately hands out cards.  I (and others) are kind of wondering WTF is going on.  After the second game we start asking and he goes into his usual "I don't know the rules" spiel that sadly tends to proceed his ending every other campaign, plus adding he expected me to do more and how he didn't want to tell everyone to SHUT UP which is what I said he should be doing as everyone OT talking amongst themselves is rude.  (I hate it when I GM, and while a little of this happens in almost every group, it was really out of control.)

So we convince him to try to keep going, and we get a little fight in with the NPCs, I managing to subdue 2 of the 4 with my Kinglyness and high social skills.  The other 2 lose their weapons due to disarms, then they are magically darkclouded outside which we pursue and then the game is called for time.  Some folks have to go to work, others have had plenty of wine and are quite tipsy, others need sleep for the next day, ect.

Well it sucked but maybe it'll be better next time.

A few minutes ago, I got an email from the GM.

Here is the biggest part of it:
> Anyway, the reason for this email is because I was
> abit bothered by your lack of full attention to the game. I
> was expecting you to contribute a large part of the rp as
> you have done in previous rpg's. When I come to your
> place to game, I dont bring other gaming related stuff
> or other hobby stuff (generally. I realize I have brought
> Star Wars when I was really trying to get a grasp on things
> regarding it).
> I feel that if you really want to participate you
> should come here as I go to your place when we are seriesly
> gaming and that's prepared to spend the few hours we are
> together involved in that game.
> If you bring other stuff to X when you go
> there, that's fine, but my place isnt X.
> By no means do you have to come back, but I would like
> it if you did. I think if you come into it prepared fully
> and taking it seriously for what it is, you will see that it
> can be alot of fun.

WTF?  Am I wrong at being somewhat insulted by this?
I'm trying to be quiet and not take over the game by working on a model kit (something I can do while listening.  I fully expect it to take a couple sessions to assemble a kit I could otherwise build and paint in 1/4th the time
and will obviously not work on it when my character is doing things.) but somehow I am being bad?

Everyone else was talking and loudly and almost exclusively OT.

Was it wrong of me to be making a model kit while playing?  Was I supposed to know my character was supposed to do more and possibly be the center of attention, something I didn't want to do since there are 7 other players currently in the group?

Help me out here folks.

This is probably one of those situations where if there were (say) 4 people involved in a session, when each describes it, it's like 4 different sessions.

However, if this GM is one who always bails after 1-4 sessions, why are you there at all?

He asked me to come play, and like I mentioned, the game I normally play on wednesdays has a rather annoying little shit I can only take so much of.

So I figured I would give it a try, and have the kit to work on when others were doing there thing or in the downtime parts.  

I normally feel I talk too much, and most people say I talk too loudly so it would also keep me quiet and occupied, while giving everyone else time to shine instead of me somehow becoming party leader.

If he wanted me to do more, I wished he would have asked me ahead of time, and given me some motivation and plot hooks to do something with.

"You show up where everyone hangs out" was my setup and motivation.  

Umm..  doesn't give me much to work on.  And with 9 other people in the room, 2 of which had laptop computers with them and on (one playing, the other writing something and asking the GM questions for things I am unsure if they had anything to do with the game currently in progress..) I shouldn't be expected to carry things I don't think.

Once the fight started I thought "good, this will bring me into the group as we fight off the badguys.  I have a reason to ask the other characters what is going on and to introduce myself after the fight.  Maybe even bring up some of his backstory".

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309291Was it wrong of me to be making a model kit while playing?

Yes.

QuoteWas I supposed to know my character was supposed to do more and possibly be the center of attention, something I didn't want to do since there are 7 other players currently in the group?

No.

My subjective opinion anyway.

Quote from: Age of Fable;309309Yes.

No.

My subjective opinion anyway.

Agreed on both.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309291Was it wrong of me to be making a model kit while playing?

I don't know how things roll in your social circle, but for my money HELL YES you were wrong to do it. Especially if it's your first session, and it's an ongoing campaign, I'd expect you to pay attention to what's going on. Nothing say to me as a GM "Hey, I actually don't give a fuck about your game" than pulling something out and fiddling with it, especially something which involves a fair bit of concentration like a modelling kit.

Now, to be fair to you the GM did leave you waiting for a while with that combat sequence; the onus was on him to make sure it wrapped up quickly and at least some of the PCs were freed up to interact with your character - or, if it really wouldn't have been appropriate to rush the combat, he should have worked out with you a reason for your character to stumble across the scene and help the PCs. (In something like Changeling it can be as simple as "hey, those guys are fellow changelings, I should help them out.") What better way for a new PC to make a big entrance and earn the party's trust than to have them lend unexpected support during a big fight?

But the fact that you deliberately brought along a modelling kit in order to distract you from the game because you were afraid of dominating it is pretty incredible to me. If I were the GM in question, I'd have assumed that you weren't really giving my game a chance to enthrall you, and since you seem to have written off this game's chances of success before signing up in the first place I think I would have been pretty justified in that.

What's more, there are 7 other players in the game. If you honestly thought you'd end up dominating the game if you didn't have something distracting you from it and limiting your interactions, you're either gaming with total wallflowers - which doesn't sound like it's the case - or you're seriously underestimating the ability of your fellow players to match your contributions to the game. Where the fuck do you get off?

QuoteWas I supposed to know my character was supposed to do more and possibly be the center of attention, something I didn't want to do since there are 7 other players currently in the group?

It's your character's introductory session, of course you're going to end up getting a heap of spotlight time by virtue of the fact that this is the session where your character gets introduced to everyone. It sounds like you were resisting spotlight-hogging to such an extreme you were effectively pushing the spotlight away when it tried to point at you, which doesn't help when part of the point of the session is to let everyone interact with your character and integrate him into the group.

Again, the GM could have done more to help here by giving you more context than you previously had - although since you were concentrating on your model for most of the first part of the game, then went away, then went back to concentrating on your model, based on your description of what happened, I'm not sure when he'd have had the opportunity to do this without delaying the game. At the same time, you always had the option of asking "hey, what's my character doing here anyway? What's my motivation?"

I get the impression from your story that at least some of the participants were trying to engage with your character but it wasn't working out - was the guy who claimed to know your PC acting on OOC knowledge, acting on IC knowledge you weren't to be expected to be aware of (say, he'd seen a photo of you which was identified as you by the PC you knew), or was he acting on IC knowledge you were expected to be aware of but didn't because you were concentrating on your model? Sure, you say that you can listen and model at the same time, but I tend to find that people (including myself) are terrible at assessing how well they can actually do that, and you do say that there was a lot of OOC chatter at the table, which only makes it more likely that you'd have missed something.

I'm sorry, dude, but your story makes you sound like a complete ass whose behaviour threw off a GM who already isn't very confident in his GMing. When you're telling your own side of the story and you still come across like a jerk, that tells me something.

I'd be insulted if you had brought a model kit to do at my table, but I also hate having people who aren't playing around too. It sounds like 'not paying attention' and having constant interruptions is how this groups rolls.

This GM needs to grow some balls, own the game system he wants to run and lead the group in one way or another. It doesn't have to be the caricature alpha male bullshit, it could be more consensual/democratic, but there's got to be someone driving the damn game. If he's annoyed by your modeling he can speak up. If nobody pays attention, he's got to capture it or inquire if people actually want to play this game or shit. This group needs to get to an agreement of what they actually want to do. If it's socializing/geeking out, fine, but be clear about it.

Yeah, if it were my game (even as a player, not a GM) and you had brought a model kit and worked on it during play I'd be pissed to say the least. In fact, I probably would have told you not to return. You may have had good intentions, but that's a big breach of etiquette on your part IMO. Flipside, I would have said so during the session (during a break or whatever; no need to berate you in front of the other players). In your defence however, this GM needs to get his shit together as well. For fucks sake, is it too much to ask to know the fucking system you are GMing?! I don't think so. And if he asked you to play he should have already had some rough ideas (at least) as to how to incorporate you. Plus it sounds like he needs to exercise a bit more control over the group as a whole. You don't have to be draconian, but the occasional "Okay guys, let's cut the chatter and pay attention for a minute here" shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Bottom line: you both were at fault to some degree or another. If you got any enjoyment whatsoever out of it though, adjust your actions, communicate with your GM, and try another session.

Just my 2 cents.

Pretty much agree with the mob.  You showed bad form in bringing a modeling kit to the table.  Now that being said.

That environment sounds like a mess to begin with.  So while you were at fault it's hardly your fault that the game sucked. It'd be akin to blaming a riot on random crowd person #73.  The GM needs to grow a pair take command of the situation and give people reasons to not want to bring a model to the table.

Furthermore 7 players is more then most people can comfortably handle and clearly way to many for this GM.  He should really think about what he wants to accomplish and set a realistic goal.  He needs to pick a system learn it and start to develop some GM chops.  Probably starting small with 3-4 players max.  This everyone in the fucking room style of play doesn't work for most people, doesn't work for most situations and certainly doesn't work for most types of games.

If he is someone you actually care to keep gaming with in any capacity you may very well be the one who needs to lay it out for him and set him straight.  You don't have to be an ass about it.  Just tell him like it is with some suggestions.  If he's mature he'll take them at value.  If he freaks out and gets his panties in a bunch then he's never going to get it.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309291I'm curious of what everyone here would think.

The setup:  A GM who constantly fails to actually know the rules of the systems he runs and gives up 1-4 sessions in to any campaign he runs is doing  a large Changeling game because he claims to know the system and setting.

Also, there are a lot of easy systems he could learn.

Quote from: boulet;309326This GM needs to grow some balls, own the game system he wants to run and lead the group in one way or another. It doesn't have to be the caricature alpha male bullshit, it could be more consensual/democratic, but there's got to be someone driving the damn game. If he's annoyed by your modeling he can speak up. If nobody pays attention, he's got to capture it or inquire if people actually want to play this game or shit.

Very, very true. The bit in the story where he pulled out the card game and started playing that with people instead of trying to GM sounds like it might be an extremely passive-aggressive way of doing that - the equivalent of saying "Fine, if you don't care about my game we won't be roleplaying this evening", only more weaselly and less direct.

In fact, the more I read about it, the more I reread the original post, and the more other people throw their input in, the more I think that the core problem is that the GM simply lacks all confidence. He clearly doesn't feel able to say "Hey, Rufus, put away the model, I need you to be paying attention" or "Rufus, come on, this is your moment to introduce your character and you're not engaging with people; what's wrong?" or "Hey, guys, listen up, this part's important".

Rufus, I still think your behaviour in the session wasn't cool (I certainly would not be happy about someone doing it at my table), but, like the others, I want to stress that I don't think it's the core reason the session was a failure; the session failed because the GM is a wimp, and the players as a whole indulged all of their bad habits in the session because they didn't seen any reason not to. Had the GM been on the ball, after all, you wouldn't have wanted to fiddle with the model in the first place because you wouldn't have had a 90 minute wait to get into the action and you wouldn't have been tossed into the thick of things without any guidance or pointers.

Yes, you're a bad player. He's also very clearly a bad GM. You all suck, and are therefore made for each other.

RPGPundit

I'm in agreement with the mob as well.

Why were there two people there who weren't gaming, but who were pretty clearly engaging in disruptive behaviour (playing on their laptop, taking players out on drink runs, etc.)? That boggles my mind. I wouldn't object to prospective players hanging around to see how the game works, but I wouldn't stand for them disrupting things like that.

Important point here: did the GM e-mailed everybody else with complains, or just you? The night sucked, he sucked and yeah, you were something of an arse, but it could be important to know whether he's doing this because of you particularly or because he's honestly trying to save the game. Maybe he realised it all sucked as well, and is trying to do things better. And to the second question, no, you shouldn't feel insulted by the e-mail, unless he actually does the stuff he claims not to. It sounds as a valid complaint after your story.

QuoteI'm curious of what everyone here would think.

OK.

QuoteThe setup: A GM who constantly fails to actually know the rules of the systems he runs

Most bad games come about because of GMs who don't know the rules of the game they're running and/or insist on improvising everything.  This is ALWAYS a warning flag.

QuoteAs is most games' wont, the first 90 minutes are mostly eating and talking. There are 10 people in the room, 2 not playing, 8 playing. The start is a combat I am not involved in since I am not there yet. (Ive spent most of the previous 90 rewriting my character since I now know Changeling better than I did when I made the character with help for a Con LARP that I kept playing in that group's Chronicle.)

Uhm...

I am a believer in the idea that RPGs are 30 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours of time, but the first 90 minutes of the game session was just everyone bullshitting?  WTF???

I could understand it if everyone was having to make up a character, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  Even you seem to only be rewriting your character out of boredom.  This excessive amount of dead time along with 2 spectators is another telltale sign of a game which shouldn't be bothered with.

QuoteOne of the not playing people wants to go for coffee and doesn't know the area so I offer to drive since I am not involved in what little has gone on yet, and its 10 minutes away or so.

Serious question.  Why did you bother returning?  I would have been out of there.

QuoteWe come back and they have just finished the fight. I settle in, and start working on the model kit I brought as to not be an attention whore character, plus while I knew everyone there, I was joining this group. I can comfortably listen and build at the same time. There are 7 other PCs.

I think the entire idea of bringing a model kit to the game is questionable.  You seem to have foreknowledge that you're not going to be involved in this game.  From everything so far, you're absolutely right.  You're probably 2 hours into the game and you haven't even been included yet, and you seemed to realize this was coming.

Next serious question.  Why did you bother showing up for this game to begin with?

QuoteMy character obviously doesn't know WTF is going on and is wondering why the pickpocketer (who mostly wanted to know who my character was as opposed to trying to steal from me) claims to know me, while 2 other PCs are trying to RP to each other across the table while everyone else is yammering away, mostly on things that have squat to do with the game.

Telltale signs that everyone is bored to tears and the game is a directionless waste of time.

Most of the time when I've seen this situation, all the PCs are naked in a 10x10 cell and have been waiting for an hour for the GMPC to show up and break them out.

I'm left to conclude one of two things:  1) Most of the players are completely uninvolved with the game.  OR  2) They know the GM is not going to let them do anything on their own, so they're just waiting in the party clubhouse until the GM gives them something to do.  Either option is a textbook sign of a game not worth playing.

QuoteThe GM comes back in with some Werewolf style card game and immediately hands out cards. I (and others) are kind of wondering WTF is going on. After the second game we start asking and he goes into his usual "I don't know the rules" spiel that usually proceeds his ending every other campaign, plus adding he expected me to do more and how he didn't want to tell everyone to SHUT UP which is what I said he should be doing as everyone OT talking amongst themselves is rude. (I hate it when I GM, and while a little of this happens in almost every group, it was really out of control.)

Well, it's all your fault.  The GM expected you to come into an existing campaign and drive the action.

What a cocksmock. (him.  not you. just to be clear.)

This guy doesn't know the rules of the game.  He has done no preparation.  He doesn't just expect the players to drive events, he expects the brand new player to the game to drive ALL the events.  It's also clear this is recurring stuff with him, not just an off night.

QuoteSo we convince him to try to keep going

Why?

For the One True Pink Unicorn's sake, WHY????

Why are you so desperate to play that you're willing to submit yourself to this idiot?

Quoteothers have had plenty of wine and are quite tipsy,

Another bad sign.  When people are boozing up during a game, it's a sign that no one is interested in the game.  They're interested in boozing.

QuoteWell it sucked but maybe it'll be better next time.

Where is that picture of Captain Picard with the Facepalm caption?

It won't be better.  The game is garbage and a waste of time.  You know it, and you've explained why to all the rest of us.  Why do you insist on ignoring your own evidence?

QuoteHere is the biggest part of it:
> Anyway, the reason for this email is because I was
> abit bothered by your lack of full attention to the game. I
> was expecting you to contribute a large part of the rp as
> you have done in previous rpg's. When I come to your
> place to game, I dont bring other gaming related stuff
> or other hobby stuff (generally. I realize I have brought
> Star Wars when I was really trying to get a grasp on things
> regarding it).
> I feel that if you really want to participate you
> should come here as I go to your place when we are seriesly
> gaming and that's prepared to spend the few hours we are
> together involved in that game.
> If you bring other stuff to X when you go
> there, that's fine, but my place isnt X.
> By no means do you have to come back, but I would like
> it if you did. I think if you come into it prepared fully
> and taking it seriously for what it is, you will see that it
> can be alot of fun.

I'll give the guy this: I do think it was slightly wrong of you to bring a model if you were truly expecting to be engaged in the game.  The fact that you brought extra activities says to me that you knew things were going to go down exactly the way they went.

But...

The idea that he's blaming YOU for the failure of the game is total crap.  The fact that he's trying to drive it home a second time is definitely insulting.  I could understand him being angry the game disintegrated (even though it was his fault), and blaming it on you in a fit.  His time window for a hissy fit is done.  This email is exactly the kind of passive aggressive blame shifting I'd expect to see from the kind of person you're describing.

QuoteWas it wrong of me to be making a model kit while playing?

Taking you at face value and assuming you brought the model to have something to do in the huge amount of downtime you expected, then I don't think it was completely out of line for you to bring a model kit.

On the other hand, you were pretty passive.  From your description, your character came into the clubhouse, sat down, and avoided getting involved in the game.  I'm not saying there was anything to get involved with.  However, at least the pickpocket player was making some kind of effort (as feeble as it may have been).  I don't feel the impetus of the campaign rests on your shoulders, but I think you had the responsibility to do Something.

On the third hand, any GM with an ounce of sense would have seen that model kit and said to themselves, "I need to try and be engaging."  The model kit was passive aggressive on your part.  It was saying, "If you don't shape up and provide some entertainment, I've brought an alternative."  The fact that the GM saw that and didn't do anything, especially when he's allegedly relying on you to drive the game, speaks fucking volumes of his absolute ineptitude.

Another thing, if I were relying on a specific player to drive the action, I would include their character in the game immediately.  I wouldn't make them sit there waiting.  

On the fourth hand (lots of hands), There are SEVEN OTHER PLAYERS and they're not doing anything.  Even with a GM of the naked 10x10 cell scenario, the seven other players would have started burning villages and raping peasants if there was something, ANYTHING possible to be done.  The fact none of them were driving the game really does tell me there was nothing to do at that juncture.

QuoteHelp me out here folks.

You already know the answer.  No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Quote from: Warthur;309316But the fact that you deliberately brought along a modelling kit in order to distract you from the game because you were afraid of dominating it is pretty incredible to me.

Have you not read his previous posts?

Seanchai

I feel sorry for the GM. Yes, he is not a good GM but, but he doesn't seem obnoxious, and would probably appreciate some support and advice on how to improve things. As it is, I can imagine him feeling things going down the tubes without quite knowing what he is doing wrong.

Quote from: The_Shadow;309423I feel sorry for the GM. [...] I can imagine him feeling things going down the tubes without quite knowing what he is doing wrong.

Remember what we know about this GM,

Quote from: Captain RufusA GM who constantly fails to actually know the rules of the systems he runs and gives up 1-4 sessions in to any campaign he runs

So this is a person who has fucked things up several times. Everyone has bad campaigns that fizzle, but you learn from your mistakes and don't make the same ones again (you make different mistakes, yay!) But this guy is obviously pretty oblivious.

You get that. I mean, some people just have zero talent, and put zero effort into improving themselves, and will thus always be useless at that thing. Have you ever watched So You Think You Can Dance or one of those shows? You get people who come on and are hopeless, and when the judges say, "thanks for your time, we don't think you're suitable," the people storm off, "Oh my god! They don't recognise my brilliant talent, I work so hard, and I'm so good, and..." they sob and wail.

Some people are just clueless, so incompetent they don't even know they're incompetent. This GM of Rufus's needs to be a player instead. Rufus should take the 3-4 most interesting people from that group, plus the GM, and show everyone how it's done.

Gming would fuck up his model building time.

Quote from: Seanchai;309387Have you not read his previous posts?

I've taken a bit of a break from the RPGSite and I'm only just easing back into things; could you give me the short version of what I'm missing?

I think everybody involved was at fault in some way. The GM should have been more of an engine and captured people's attention better, but, frankly, the players as a whole (you included) sound as if they couldn't be arsed playing and were just there to stave off boredom. The polite thing to do on the part of the players would have been to try their hardest to make the game work, rather than chat OT, make models, play on laptops etc.

Sorry, I only got as far as changeling larp, and understood.

I had a bad game a few weeks ago. We were playing Exalted.

You guys make me feel better about my gaming. For us, a "bad game" is when its a little dull, or someone gets upset because something didn't go their way, or they felt that dude x got slightly more playtime than they did. But nothing on this kind of level of dysfunctionality.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;309424Remember what we know about this GM...

And from whom we know it...

Seanchai

Quote from: Warthur;309428I've taken a bit of a break from the RPGSite and I'm only just easing back into things; could you give me the short version of what I'm missing?

Not much. He's just a...rabid poster. It's not surprising that he'd do something like this in real life.

Seanchai

As a GM, a player bringing a model kit or other distraction to my table would really annoy me.

As a player, the GM off doing other stuff with the players while I wait and wait for an intro would annoy me and probably result in me wandering off, unless I had been notified and agreed to the wait beforehand.

Quote from: S'mon;309544As a GM, a player bringing a model kit or other distraction to my table would really annoy me.

Doing so without asking and explaining why would annoy the hell out of me.

If he's severely Adult ADD/ADHD, that's a good explanation, but the modeling involved had better not involve cyanoacrylate....

Quote from: aramis;309573Doing so without asking and explaining why would annoy the hell out of me.

Yes, I guess if a player discussed it with me in advance I'd be ok.

One thing I dislike is players who deliberately don't pay attention when their PC is not present.  The player needs to know what's happening even if the PC doesn't, otherwise the other players need to waste time bringing him up to speed.  RPGs should be enjoyable to watch even when it's not your turn.  If you don't enjoy seeing other players doing stuff, then solo games or CRPGs would be better.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;309547As a player, the GM off doing other stuff with the players while I wait and wait for an intro would annoy me and probably result in me wandering off, unless I had been notified and agreed to the wait beforehand.

If it went on too long it might annoy me too.  About 45 minutes is fine, beyond that I'd start to get edgy.

Yeah, from the story is was about 90 minutes. I'm not sure when he 'wandered off', though.

Well, I've been busy over the weekend so I haven't had a chance to reply to any of these posts.

The GM is a friend, and sometimes you put up with friends' quibbles even if you don't want to.  Which means I am not gonna boot him as GM, steal players, or be a dick to him because his GMing needs work.

I am trying to work with him to help him improve his GMing.  Honestly he is one of the nicest people I have ever known so jumping all over his shit is not going to be something I do.

Now with this many people I may in fact drop out so he has less folks to deal with, or offer to be an assistant GM if he wants.  (Aka: The rules bitch.  I was one of the few people at the table with my own copy of the rules.  Hell, I had my own GM screen, albeit the basic NWOD screen and not the Changeling one.  I've also helped him with rules in the past involving this game and I am currently reading the full rules myself.)

He called me to talk about it Friday before work.  He forgot I tend to multitask.  Unless I am GMing I tend to be painting up a model or something since I can get quite fidgety, and as I mentioned I talk too much so it keeps me quiet.  I am fully capable of building a simple kit (snap together Bandai dealie) and listening.  Ideally I would drop the kit the second I was needed for anything and probably wouldn't have time to putz with it at all once the game got going.  But for those slow bits when other PCs were in different areas, or the pre game dinner most folks were eating and such I could be occupied.  If it did prove to be a distraction from actually playing I would put it away no problem.  There was NO intent on being rude or passive aggressive on my part.  In fact, I brought it for the opposite reason.  I brought it so I wouldn't join the noisy din, or get fussy.  (Or eat snacks.  A model doesn't have any evil evil calories in it.  I haven't lost a ton of weight without understanding I have an issue with easily available food.)

Everyone else was either talking OT, drawing, or playing with a computer.  I was merely assembling a simple kit while keeping my mouth shut and my ears wide open.  Heck, I think I listen BETTER that way.  Once something started happening, I started doing stuff.  

The GM did tell me he has had a talk with the rest of the group,  I keep trying to tell the GM he is the boss, but he doesn't want to be rude or mean to people.

Admittedly looking back I probably SHOULD have asked if it would be a problem and mentioned the above (the whole "If it turns out I can't RPG properly the model gets put away" spiel), but I didn't think it would be a problem, and until the GM mentioned it a day and a half later I didn't know it was.

I was looking up rules when needed and all that.  Not being the GM it wasn't my place in his house to tell everyone else to shut the bloody hell up unless it involves the game.

Things I think the group needs to do:

1: GM needs to read and know as many of the rules as possible, or be decisive enough to bullshit them on the fly.
1a: Make sure the forceful rules lawyer knows the GM has the con and sometimes will just do something quick to keep it moving.

2: Ease down the OT talk.  It happens, but with that many people its too damned loud.

3: We need to go in order/have a caller for some things.  Going around the table asking us what we are doing, ect.

4: If our distractions are keeping us from playing the game, they get off the damned table.

5: Anyone not playing is either quiet as a titmouse, or GTFO.

6: GM is the boss, has to accept he is the boss, and the players must acknowledge this fact.  Challenging him on every minor rule, talking over him, ect is bad juju.  Also he must be willing and capable to tell us to hush or just get us moving.  Things get OT talky, its time to just butt in with "Blah is happening.. what are you doing?".

I think that could solve things.  If it doesn't, I will drop out and go back to Wednesday 40K instead.

But we are all friends at that table, which means not being dicks to each other.  

Some of the suggestions yall gave come up on the dick side honestly.  Maybe appropriate for people you only see gaming, but not folks you may want to socialize with outside the realms of paper and dice.

Though I did see some good stuff to think about.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309686Not being the GM it wasn't my place in his house to tell everyone else to shut the bloody hell up unless it involves the game.

Sounded like it did, though.

Quote from: Captain RufusThings I think the group needs to do:(...)

But we are all friends at that table, which means not being dicks to each other.  

Some of the suggestions yall gave come up on the dick side honestly.  Maybe appropriate for people you only see gaming, but not folks you may want to socialize with outside the realms of paper and dice.

Though I did see some good stuff to think about.

Well, yeah, kinda RPG group 101 there. And man, if you're all friends, it should actually be easier to tell people to run along with the game, or else to just quit it and watch a movie or something.

Quote from: Seanchai;309535Not much. He's just a...rabid poster. It's not surprising that he'd do something like this in real life.

Ah, I thought he might have mentioned in a previous post that he has some sort of disorder which makes him run his mouth off constantly if he doesn't have a distraction, or some other explanation as to why he thinks he'd be able to shout down 7 other people at the table who sound pretty chatty themselves.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309686The GM is a friend, and sometimes you put up with friends' quibbles even if you don't want to.  Which means I am not gonna boot him as GM, steal players, or be a dick to him because his GMing needs work.

I am trying to work with him to help him improve his GMing.  Honestly he is one of the nicest people I have ever known so jumping all over his shit is not going to be something I do.

There's a piece of information here which I think we need before we go much further:

Does this guy actually like GMing? Does he have game ideas he really wants to see get off the ground, does he passionately want to be running a campaign, does he thrive on being the centre of attention? Or is he just sort of volunteering because nobody else is stepping up to the bat?

Of course, most GMs wouldn't enjoy running a game under the circumstances you describe. But at the same time, I think that GMs need to meet two criteria if they ever hope to run a good game:

a) They like the idea of GMing a game, even if they aren't satisfied with the results they are currently getting from it.
b) They either enjoy exercising the sort of skills that are inherently tied to the GMing position, or they have a strong desire to develop said skills.
c) They need to actually possess the capacity to exercise the skills in question.

a) is the easiest of all; it's b) and c) which are the killers. From what you've told us, I get the impression that the GM in question is a bit passive, possibly to the point of being shy in social situations, and has trouble learning and understanding the rules of games. We're in complete agreement that both of these things are serious flaws as far as GMing goes. So, three questions I would ask:

a) Does your friend actually want to GM, rather than just doing the job because nobody else will? Furthermore, does he like the idea of exercising the skills and responsibilities of being a GM, or does he have a fantasy of being able to run a game without taking an active role socially/without learning the rules?

b) Does your friend understand where his failings lie and what to improve?

c) Are his difficulties mild enough that you can just tackle them with a bit of hard work and perseverance, or are they ingrained enough that it's beyond the capability of non-professionals to help?

If the answer to a) is "no" then there's not much to be done to salvage the situation beyond offering to GM so that he can do what he does enjoy doing. Given that he is quite persistent about attempting to GM I assume that he at least likes the idea of GMing, but it's possible that he has unrealistic ideas about effective GMing.

If the answer to b) is "no" then, similarly, you got problems, but I get the impression from what you've said that he understands what the issues are, so I'll assume the answer is "yes".

If the answer to c) is "no" then the problem goes deeper than gaming. (In this case my main concern is his passivity; that's the sort of thing where the problem could be as straightforward as a simple lack of confidence or be a deeply-ingrained patter of behaviour of the sort that can't be solved quickly or easily). I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is in fact personally capable of improving.

QuoteNow with this many people I may in fact drop out so he has less folks to deal with, or offer to be an assistant GM if he wants.  (Aka: The rules bitch.  I was one of the few people at the table with my own copy of the rules.  Hell, I had my own GM screen, albeit the basic NWOD screen and not the Changeling one.  I've also helped him with rules in the past involving this game and I am currently reading the full rules myself.)

I'm not sure an assistant GM is really the right solution in this case; the guy's problem is that he lacks authority, drafting in an assistant to help him keep track of the rules could end up undermining his position even more. I suspect that removing yourself from the equation to reduce the number of people at the table may help; you might even want to suggest to him that he might want to limit the number of people in his campaigns to keep a more manageable group size. I get the impression that he's the sort of person who finds it hard to say "no" to people who ask to join the game, and in my experience GMs like that tend to rapidly get more people in their campaigns than they're actually comfortable with GMing.

QuoteHe called me to talk about it Friday before work.  He forgot I tend to multitask.  Unless I am GMing I tend to be painting up a model or something since I can get quite fidgety, and as I mentioned I talk too much so it keeps me quiet.  I am fully capable of building a simple kit (snap together Bandai dealie) and listening.  Ideally I would drop the kit the second I was needed for anything and probably wouldn't have time to putz with it at all once the game got going.  But for those slow bits when other PCs were in different areas, or the pre game dinner most folks were eating and such I could be occupied.  If it did prove to be a distraction from actually playing I would put it away no problem.  There was NO intent on being rude or passive aggressive on my part.  In fact, I brought it for the opposite reason.  I brought it so I wouldn't join the noisy din, or get fussy.  (Or eat snacks.  A model doesn't have any evil evil calories in it.  I haven't lost a ton of weight without understanding I have an issue with easily available food.)

It's good that the GM understands why you needed the model, but I'm wondering whether the other players did. Seeing you get the model out and tinker with it could well have just encouraged them in their own bad habits - it seems to be the acceptable thing in this group to happily embrace distractions from the game itself, and to someone who didn't know your reasons for bringing the model along it would look as though you were wholeheartedly buying into that group dynamic.

QuoteThe GM did tell me he has had a talk with the rest of the group, though he did mention one player he wished he could drop.  (A guy who generally does a good job RPing and all that, but he tends to be a rules lawyer and is a bit more forceful a personality compared to the GM who is more on the passive side.  I keep trying to tell the GM he is the boss, but he doesn't want to be rude or mean to people.)

Well, as has been said previously in this thread, this is kind of the root of the problem: the GM's too passive. People are treating him like he's a pushover, and they're getting away with it because, well, he's a pushover. He first needs to learn that it is completely possible to say "no" to someone asking to be part of your game without being "rude" or "mean" - it's not "mean" to say to someone "I'm sorry, but I don't want to take on more players than I can handle".

Asking someone to leave the group is more difficult, but again, it can be done and it is important to learn this sort of thing in life. There is nothing rude about the statement "I'm sorry, (player), but the group chemistry just isn't working out, and I think I would find it easier to GM the game if you were no longer part of the group", and as for being mean - well, it might be a little harsh, but it is vastly better than more passive-aggressive means of pushing someone out of a group. Furthermore, isn't it mean to the other players to keep hold of a participant who throws you off the GMing and thus makes the game experience worse for other people?

Someone needs to introduce your social circle to the concept of the Geek Social Fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html). ;)

Warthur's right. Someone has to wear the Viking Hat.

I'd have killed you and taken your toy robot.

The thing is he wants to run a game.  And he asked me on multiple occasions to join the game.  Because one of the 40K players is an asshat, the ability to drive less to get to game and be with people I know better I figured I would give it a shot.

I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies mainly because its mostly bullshit.  I deal cards at a casino.  Dorks do NOTHING any better or worse than "normals".  Trust me.  The behavior I see there makes even your average creepy gamer thread seem nancy.  We nerds are people too, and do the same dumb shit.

I'm not interested in running the game.  NWoD with one of the Blah:The Blah bigbooks is a bit more work than I like.  I'm still learning the game and I have been in a LARP of it since August 08.  This month is the first time I seriously sat down with the bloody thing.  Memorizing it aint gonna happen.

Besides, I am prepping for my own game (with part of that group in it anyhow) for a different day of the week.  (A Transformers game using Mechamorphosis.)

He may want to switch it to a LARP styled game since the rules aren't as important (even the massively experienced Venue ST doesn't know every rule.  I did a little reading when I got up and a power I asked for its use 2 weeks back was told to me WRONG.  It happens.  I am not sure I will remind the LARP ST of this since it actually makes my character's power much more effective though.  Except my damned honesty probably will at least force me to bring it up... ) and it more encourages people walking about and yammering with each other more than needing the GM to babysit.  

And I could easily help out as assistant GM in that regard.

I'll be talking with him more tomorrow as a bunch of us are driving up to some bardic music thingie.

I mean, I could take over as a GM, but I wouldn't do Changeling.  I would do Paranoia where the GM is supposed to be an unfair cruel assbag.

But I would rather not.  I'm sure we can get the GM going right.  Its just a matter of patience and time.

If not, I can always just play more 40K each month.  But I am sure it won't come to that.  Worse comes to worse, we will have him run the game on our other game day for a smaller crowd who is more likely to not give him any trouble.  (The suggestions for fewer people while he gets a handle on things is a good one too.)

Quote from: Old Geezer;309754I'd have killed you and taken your toy robot.

:rotfl:

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309814I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies mainly because its mostly bullshit.  I deal cards at a casino.  Dorks do NOTHING any better or worse than "normals".  Trust me.  The behavior I see there makes even your average creepy gamer thread seem nancy.  We nerds are people too, and do the same dumb shit.

Oh, I don't buy the idea that the GSFs are universally true for all people with nerdish pursuits. But I do think that ideas very much like them can potentially infect any social group, and it does sound like that they're at work in this situation.

Quote from: Warthur;309719Ah, I thought he might have mentioned in a previous post that he has some sort of disorder which makes him run his mouth off constantly if he doesn't have a distraction, or some other explanation as to why he thinks he'd be able to shout down 7 other people at the table who sound pretty chatty themselves.

Yeah. That sort of thing is what I'm talking about.

Seanchai

I never said I would be able to quiet anyone down I don't think.  I know for sure I wouldn't try.  Back up the GM?  Sure.  I did mention to the group that the GM should do something to hush us a bit though.  Like call a SHUT THE FUCK UP thing.  I've done it as the GM with some of these folks in a Cthulhu game, but I had a smile on my face while doing it.  

The GM as mentioned is a hell of a nice guy and its not his style.  If he really wants me to be his enforcer so to speak I wouldn't mind getting to be the bad guy to hush folks, but I would probably feel bad doing it.  It would be entertaining, but I would feel bad.

As mentioned I think we do need a party caller.  Or need to go LARP style.  With WW stuff its pretty easy and card draws work just as well as die rolls really.  It might tweak the X Again rule a touch, but nothing too severe.  Plus it would get people in different spots instead of having us all fit into one dining room.  The din would be lessened, and in seperate rooms the folks not directly involved can do their OT talking at that point.  (Unless I take up as assistant GM.  I'd rather not, but if it helps him out and keeps the game moving I would happily do so.)

I'm not saying I have a disorder or anything as far as talking too much.  I just know my own issues and limitations and strive to be a better guy than the one I was the day before.  Unlike say a certain pundit (:P) I am well aware my poo stinks.  So I try to not be so chatty.

Also if the GM had clued me in about wanting me to drive things and had given me some motivation and plot hooks I would have run with it.  I gave him a couple ideas he didn't feel right about using so I dropped them and was just letting him lead.

In a previous game I had sort of overwritten his plot with the PCs pretty much coming up with our own campaign.  I did not want to steal his thunder and step on his campaign this time.  

We got our wires crossed I think.  A failure to communicate mostly based on trying to do right by each other.  Cuz that's what pals do.  You look out for yer boys and girls and they will do likewise.  

I can possibly see how some of yall might think I was being a douche, but for whatever reason some of yall have a negative opinion of me for which I apologize if its any legitimate reason.  (If its because we disagree on something well go fuck yourself though.  Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I am out to pee in their Corn Flakes.)  Unlike a lot of folks I generally mean well and am not out to hurt people.  Even Internet nerds talking about silly shit like RPGs.

Remember folks: No matter what we love or do, something thinks we are an asshole for it.  

Its why honorifics like Ma'am can't be used in some places.  Passive aggressive jerkwads have decided its a double meaning and instead of being equivalent to Madame or the female version of Sir, it really means Bitch or OMG OOOOLD LADY.

These jerkwads are BAAD PEOPLE who think everyone thinks and acts as they do.

Just because most people don't pick up their trash at the movie theater, or wash their hands after they use the bathroom, or leave their shopping carts in the middle of a parking space instead of putting it 10-20 feet away doesn't mean we all do.

It is interesting I had this game situation discussion with another group of folks and gotten a totally different vibe and response.  Heck one of the folks I was chatting with was playing an IRC game while playing an MMO AND chatting on IRC.  Some of us can do this.  Others not so much.

So peace and love and all.  We learn as we go.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309814...I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies...

You may not believe in the GSF, but the GSF believe in You.  :D

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309857It is interesting I had this game situation discussion with another group of folks and gotten a totally different vibe and response.  Heck one of the folks I was chatting with was playing an IRC game while playing an MMO AND chatting on IRC.  Some of us can do this.  Others not so much.

I don't mind what my players are also doing when I'm running an internet text-chat game - I can't see it.  Heck, half the time I'm dealing with a 2-year-old running around the house while I'm trying to GM Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh.  Having players sat at the game table while playing computer games, fiddling with their MP3 player, reading a book, or making a model, though, would be very distracting and unpleasant.  OOC chat is fine if it's broadly game-related, or about getting beer/food/etc, but not about extraneous matters.

Quote from: Captain Rufus(...)

Dude, way to write a few thousand characters to say nothing.

Quote from: SunBoy;310072Dude, way to write a few thousand characters to say nothing.

Attaboy ! Way to be a prick in one line.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309814I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies mainly because its mostly bullshit.  I deal cards at a casino.  Dorks do NOTHING any better or worse than "normals".  Trust me.  The behavior I see there makes even your average creepy gamer thread seem nancy.  We nerds are people too, and do the same dumb shit.

The fact that you think geek behavior is normal because it matches casino goers is, like, mind-boggling. You're comparing people who exhibit obsessive behavior and marginal social skills to .... people who exhibit obsessive behavior and marginal social skills. :)

It's not solely the responsibility of the GM to make sure the social context of the group is compatible with gaming -- everybody's got to do their part. Nobody should really have to be asked.

To be fair, so you don't just think I'm dumping on you,  I think it's excellent news that you and the GM talked through the situation, and hopefully you all can come up with something that'll work out well. LARP-style seems to be a positive way to go; if the GM for whatever reason wants to hold long private conferences, the rest of the table should have the opportunity to do something game related, or people will keep tuning out.

Rufus,

QuoteOriginally Posted by Captain Rufus
...I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies...

  The point of GSF is not to say that they are true or not to say that every Geek does this every time. It's that you need to be aware of these sorts of pitfalls and not to fall into them.

  The author is basically trying to say, you can't make everyone happy. And if you try to make everyone happy, you will make everyone miserable.

  Anyways, I would besure your group is cool with bringing a model before doing so. Also, its OK for a player to say, "Hey, I think its game time" or "Guys, let's listen ot the GM, I think they are trying to tell us something" That's called leading by example. And it is usually seen as a good thing.

Quote from: boulet;310106Attaboy ! Way to be a prick in one line.

I could do it better.

Quote from: boulet;310106Attaboy ! Way to be a prick in one line.

Thanks, but that wasn't some of my best one-line-prickness work.

I mean, come on. The guy says in the OP: "I think my GM is an arshole, what do you think?". We say "Nope, he just sucks, you were an arshole. Here's some suggestions, as asked". Then he goes "The GM is my friend; you're all bad people, and don't know how to play with friends". And I'm a prick? Well, maybe, but I'm a brief prick.

Quote from: Aos;310126I could do it better.

Bring it on.

Quote from: SunBoy;310176Thanks, but that wasn't some of my best one-line-prickness work.

I mean, come on. The guy says in the OP: "I think my GM is an arshole, what do you think?". We say "Nope, he just sucks, you were an arshole. Here's some suggestions, as asked". Then he goes "The GM is my friend; you're all bad people, and don't know how to play with friends". And I'm a prick? Well, maybe, but I'm a brief prick.

What happened to "nothing"?

Quote from: ticopelp;310180What happened to "nothing"?

?????

ETA: Oh, I got it. Well, it was about the last post. It was a pretty long-winded low-calories post. So I was being a prick. I don't deny it. Think of it as petty revenge.

I wasn't calling the GM an asshole.  I cannot say I was thrilled with him at the time I wrote the initial post, but 2-3 weeks of off and on again insomnia will make anyone a bit extra irritable.

I did mention this thread to the GM yesterday.  He is now convinced Internet forums are the most horrible thing ever.

Of course, if I would stop telling him horror stories about the Net (I figure I learn horrid things online and the suffering should be shared.) he might find some good stuff, but its better to terrify people.

Or at least more amusing.

And we talked about going LARP style.  He is worried the rest of the group might not grok to it, even though the style we would do is basically the same as a sit down, cept you pull cards instead of roll 10 siders and have to get off your butt for some of the game time.  (Which to me is a PLUS.  Moving around is good.)

And I will so compare gamblers to gamers to everyone else.  Cuz humanity is all the same really.  We all dumbass shit so the trick is to accept its silly, try not to fuck anyone else over, and laugh at it all.

Captain Rufus, I really hope you won't take this as an insult, because I don't mean it that way. But I'd like you to consider the possibility (just the possibility, also feel free to just decide I'm full of shit) that you have some socialization difficulties. Hell, most people do, it's just that we think about the stuff that's hard for us to do and try to see if we can approach it a different way.

The Internet can't replace a peer group. When I look at the stuff you've posted in this thread, a lot of it seems to be looking for us to excuse or justify some of your behavior and actions, stuff that people IRL don't seem to like. We didn't really do that, and I think that made you uncomfortable. What I'm trying to say is that we can't do that, it's not our place. I'm trying to say that I wish, as a person who only means you well, that you'd consider socializing more in person with folks. Maybe that includes gaming, maybe not, but I just get kind of an unsettling gut feeling that you're trying to use forums and/or tabletop gaming to get that ineffable "something" out of socializing, but not seeing that the socializing itself is something you have to participate in.

I'm not saying you have some kind of disorder just because you make model kits during games, or talk to folks IRL about gross/stupid stuff you found on the internet that's intended to horrify them and that they don't seem to want to hear, but I'm just saying that it may point to there being something missing in your IRL socialization, and that when people are reacting to you in ways you didn't expect, it's always good to take a deep breath and think about what part you may have had in that miscommunication.

Good luck and good gaming! And again if you want to take this as a flame (which it's honestly not intended as), I'd rather you ignore it than attack back. :)

Quote from: Sweeney;310404The Internet can't replace a peer group. When I look at the stuff you've posted in this thread, a lot of it seems to be looking for us to excuse or justify some of your behavior and actions, stuff that people IRL don't seem to like. We didn't really do that, and I think that made you uncomfortable. What I'm trying to say is that we can't do that, it's not our place. I'm trying to say that I wish, as a person who only means you well, that you'd consider socializing more in person with folks. Maybe that includes gaming, maybe not, but I just get kind of an unsettling gut feeling that you're trying to use forums and/or tabletop gaming to get that ineffable "something" out of socializing, but not seeing that the socializing itself is something you have to participate in.

I've got to say, Rufus, this does have a ring of truth to it, especially in the light of your comment about how you didn't really take part in any of the OOC conversation even during the pre-game meal. If you come to a session intent on Gaming and Gaming Only and don't want to engage with your fellow participants on any other level then it's only going to make bad experiences more likely.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;310242I cannot say I was thrilled with him at the time I wrote the initial post, but 2-3 weeks of off and on again insomnia will make anyone a bit extra irritable.

You know the "sorry, I am suffering from insomnia" defense is used as often as the "sorry, I got Asperger" defense on the internet in RPG forums. Both are true about the same numbers of time, the number is very close to Zero.