Quote from: aramis;309573Doing so without asking and explaining why would annoy the hell out of me.

Yes, I guess if a player discussed it with me in advance I'd be ok.

One thing I dislike is players who deliberately don't pay attention when their PC is not present.  The player needs to know what's happening even if the PC doesn't, otherwise the other players need to waste time bringing him up to speed.  RPGs should be enjoyable to watch even when it's not your turn.  If you don't enjoy seeing other players doing stuff, then solo games or CRPGs would be better.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;309547As a player, the GM off doing other stuff with the players while I wait and wait for an intro would annoy me and probably result in me wandering off, unless I had been notified and agreed to the wait beforehand.

If it went on too long it might annoy me too.  About 45 minutes is fine, beyond that I'd start to get edgy.

Yeah, from the story is was about 90 minutes. I'm not sure when he 'wandered off', though.

Well, I've been busy over the weekend so I haven't had a chance to reply to any of these posts.

The GM is a friend, and sometimes you put up with friends' quibbles even if you don't want to.  Which means I am not gonna boot him as GM, steal players, or be a dick to him because his GMing needs work.

I am trying to work with him to help him improve his GMing.  Honestly he is one of the nicest people I have ever known so jumping all over his shit is not going to be something I do.

Now with this many people I may in fact drop out so he has less folks to deal with, or offer to be an assistant GM if he wants.  (Aka: The rules bitch.  I was one of the few people at the table with my own copy of the rules.  Hell, I had my own GM screen, albeit the basic NWOD screen and not the Changeling one.  I've also helped him with rules in the past involving this game and I am currently reading the full rules myself.)

He called me to talk about it Friday before work.  He forgot I tend to multitask.  Unless I am GMing I tend to be painting up a model or something since I can get quite fidgety, and as I mentioned I talk too much so it keeps me quiet.  I am fully capable of building a simple kit (snap together Bandai dealie) and listening.  Ideally I would drop the kit the second I was needed for anything and probably wouldn't have time to putz with it at all once the game got going.  But for those slow bits when other PCs were in different areas, or the pre game dinner most folks were eating and such I could be occupied.  If it did prove to be a distraction from actually playing I would put it away no problem.  There was NO intent on being rude or passive aggressive on my part.  In fact, I brought it for the opposite reason.  I brought it so I wouldn't join the noisy din, or get fussy.  (Or eat snacks.  A model doesn't have any evil evil calories in it.  I haven't lost a ton of weight without understanding I have an issue with easily available food.)

Everyone else was either talking OT, drawing, or playing with a computer.  I was merely assembling a simple kit while keeping my mouth shut and my ears wide open.  Heck, I think I listen BETTER that way.  Once something started happening, I started doing stuff.  

The GM did tell me he has had a talk with the rest of the group,  I keep trying to tell the GM he is the boss, but he doesn't want to be rude or mean to people.

Admittedly looking back I probably SHOULD have asked if it would be a problem and mentioned the above (the whole "If it turns out I can't RPG properly the model gets put away" spiel), but I didn't think it would be a problem, and until the GM mentioned it a day and a half later I didn't know it was.

I was looking up rules when needed and all that.  Not being the GM it wasn't my place in his house to tell everyone else to shut the bloody hell up unless it involves the game.

Things I think the group needs to do:

1: GM needs to read and know as many of the rules as possible, or be decisive enough to bullshit them on the fly.
1a: Make sure the forceful rules lawyer knows the GM has the con and sometimes will just do something quick to keep it moving.

2: Ease down the OT talk.  It happens, but with that many people its too damned loud.

3: We need to go in order/have a caller for some things.  Going around the table asking us what we are doing, ect.

4: If our distractions are keeping us from playing the game, they get off the damned table.

5: Anyone not playing is either quiet as a titmouse, or GTFO.

6: GM is the boss, has to accept he is the boss, and the players must acknowledge this fact.  Challenging him on every minor rule, talking over him, ect is bad juju.  Also he must be willing and capable to tell us to hush or just get us moving.  Things get OT talky, its time to just butt in with "Blah is happening.. what are you doing?".

I think that could solve things.  If it doesn't, I will drop out and go back to Wednesday 40K instead.

But we are all friends at that table, which means not being dicks to each other.  

Some of the suggestions yall gave come up on the dick side honestly.  Maybe appropriate for people you only see gaming, but not folks you may want to socialize with outside the realms of paper and dice.

Though I did see some good stuff to think about.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309686Not being the GM it wasn't my place in his house to tell everyone else to shut the bloody hell up unless it involves the game.

Sounded like it did, though.

Quote from: Captain RufusThings I think the group needs to do:(...)

But we are all friends at that table, which means not being dicks to each other.  

Some of the suggestions yall gave come up on the dick side honestly.  Maybe appropriate for people you only see gaming, but not folks you may want to socialize with outside the realms of paper and dice.

Though I did see some good stuff to think about.

Well, yeah, kinda RPG group 101 there. And man, if you're all friends, it should actually be easier to tell people to run along with the game, or else to just quit it and watch a movie or something.

Quote from: Seanchai;309535Not much. He's just a...rabid poster. It's not surprising that he'd do something like this in real life.

Ah, I thought he might have mentioned in a previous post that he has some sort of disorder which makes him run his mouth off constantly if he doesn't have a distraction, or some other explanation as to why he thinks he'd be able to shout down 7 other people at the table who sound pretty chatty themselves.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309686The GM is a friend, and sometimes you put up with friends' quibbles even if you don't want to.  Which means I am not gonna boot him as GM, steal players, or be a dick to him because his GMing needs work.

I am trying to work with him to help him improve his GMing.  Honestly he is one of the nicest people I have ever known so jumping all over his shit is not going to be something I do.

There's a piece of information here which I think we need before we go much further:

Does this guy actually like GMing? Does he have game ideas he really wants to see get off the ground, does he passionately want to be running a campaign, does he thrive on being the centre of attention? Or is he just sort of volunteering because nobody else is stepping up to the bat?

Of course, most GMs wouldn't enjoy running a game under the circumstances you describe. But at the same time, I think that GMs need to meet two criteria if they ever hope to run a good game:

a) They like the idea of GMing a game, even if they aren't satisfied with the results they are currently getting from it.
b) They either enjoy exercising the sort of skills that are inherently tied to the GMing position, or they have a strong desire to develop said skills.
c) They need to actually possess the capacity to exercise the skills in question.

a) is the easiest of all; it's b) and c) which are the killers. From what you've told us, I get the impression that the GM in question is a bit passive, possibly to the point of being shy in social situations, and has trouble learning and understanding the rules of games. We're in complete agreement that both of these things are serious flaws as far as GMing goes. So, three questions I would ask:

a) Does your friend actually want to GM, rather than just doing the job because nobody else will? Furthermore, does he like the idea of exercising the skills and responsibilities of being a GM, or does he have a fantasy of being able to run a game without taking an active role socially/without learning the rules?

b) Does your friend understand where his failings lie and what to improve?

c) Are his difficulties mild enough that you can just tackle them with a bit of hard work and perseverance, or are they ingrained enough that it's beyond the capability of non-professionals to help?

If the answer to a) is "no" then there's not much to be done to salvage the situation beyond offering to GM so that he can do what he does enjoy doing. Given that he is quite persistent about attempting to GM I assume that he at least likes the idea of GMing, but it's possible that he has unrealistic ideas about effective GMing.

If the answer to b) is "no" then, similarly, you got problems, but I get the impression from what you've said that he understands what the issues are, so I'll assume the answer is "yes".

If the answer to c) is "no" then the problem goes deeper than gaming. (In this case my main concern is his passivity; that's the sort of thing where the problem could be as straightforward as a simple lack of confidence or be a deeply-ingrained patter of behaviour of the sort that can't be solved quickly or easily). I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is in fact personally capable of improving.

QuoteNow with this many people I may in fact drop out so he has less folks to deal with, or offer to be an assistant GM if he wants.  (Aka: The rules bitch.  I was one of the few people at the table with my own copy of the rules.  Hell, I had my own GM screen, albeit the basic NWOD screen and not the Changeling one.  I've also helped him with rules in the past involving this game and I am currently reading the full rules myself.)

I'm not sure an assistant GM is really the right solution in this case; the guy's problem is that he lacks authority, drafting in an assistant to help him keep track of the rules could end up undermining his position even more. I suspect that removing yourself from the equation to reduce the number of people at the table may help; you might even want to suggest to him that he might want to limit the number of people in his campaigns to keep a more manageable group size. I get the impression that he's the sort of person who finds it hard to say "no" to people who ask to join the game, and in my experience GMs like that tend to rapidly get more people in their campaigns than they're actually comfortable with GMing.

QuoteHe called me to talk about it Friday before work.  He forgot I tend to multitask.  Unless I am GMing I tend to be painting up a model or something since I can get quite fidgety, and as I mentioned I talk too much so it keeps me quiet.  I am fully capable of building a simple kit (snap together Bandai dealie) and listening.  Ideally I would drop the kit the second I was needed for anything and probably wouldn't have time to putz with it at all once the game got going.  But for those slow bits when other PCs were in different areas, or the pre game dinner most folks were eating and such I could be occupied.  If it did prove to be a distraction from actually playing I would put it away no problem.  There was NO intent on being rude or passive aggressive on my part.  In fact, I brought it for the opposite reason.  I brought it so I wouldn't join the noisy din, or get fussy.  (Or eat snacks.  A model doesn't have any evil evil calories in it.  I haven't lost a ton of weight without understanding I have an issue with easily available food.)

It's good that the GM understands why you needed the model, but I'm wondering whether the other players did. Seeing you get the model out and tinker with it could well have just encouraged them in their own bad habits - it seems to be the acceptable thing in this group to happily embrace distractions from the game itself, and to someone who didn't know your reasons for bringing the model along it would look as though you were wholeheartedly buying into that group dynamic.

QuoteThe GM did tell me he has had a talk with the rest of the group, though he did mention one player he wished he could drop.  (A guy who generally does a good job RPing and all that, but he tends to be a rules lawyer and is a bit more forceful a personality compared to the GM who is more on the passive side.  I keep trying to tell the GM he is the boss, but he doesn't want to be rude or mean to people.)

Well, as has been said previously in this thread, this is kind of the root of the problem: the GM's too passive. People are treating him like he's a pushover, and they're getting away with it because, well, he's a pushover. He first needs to learn that it is completely possible to say "no" to someone asking to be part of your game without being "rude" or "mean" - it's not "mean" to say to someone "I'm sorry, but I don't want to take on more players than I can handle".

Asking someone to leave the group is more difficult, but again, it can be done and it is important to learn this sort of thing in life. There is nothing rude about the statement "I'm sorry, (player), but the group chemistry just isn't working out, and I think I would find it easier to GM the game if you were no longer part of the group", and as for being mean - well, it might be a little harsh, but it is vastly better than more passive-aggressive means of pushing someone out of a group. Furthermore, isn't it mean to the other players to keep hold of a participant who throws you off the GMing and thus makes the game experience worse for other people?

Someone needs to introduce your social circle to the concept of the Geek Social Fallacies.

Warthur's right. Someone has to wear the Viking Hat.

I'd have killed you and taken your toy robot.

The thing is he wants to run a game.  And he asked me on multiple occasions to join the game.  Because one of the 40K players is an asshat, the ability to drive less to get to game and be with people I know better I figured I would give it a shot.

I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies mainly because its mostly bullshit.  I deal cards at a casino.  Dorks do NOTHING any better or worse than "normals".  Trust me.  The behavior I see there makes even your average creepy gamer thread seem nancy.  We nerds are people too, and do the same dumb shit.

I'm not interested in running the game.  NWoD with one of the Blah:The Blah bigbooks is a bit more work than I like.  I'm still learning the game and I have been in a LARP of it since August 08.  This month is the first time I seriously sat down with the bloody thing.  Memorizing it aint gonna happen.

Besides, I am prepping for my own game (with part of that group in it anyhow) for a different day of the week.  (A Transformers game using Mechamorphosis.)

He may want to switch it to a LARP styled game since the rules aren't as important (even the massively experienced Venue ST doesn't know every rule.  I did a little reading when I got up and a power I asked for its use 2 weeks back was told to me WRONG.  It happens.  I am not sure I will remind the LARP ST of this since it actually makes my character's power much more effective though.  Except my damned honesty probably will at least force me to bring it up... ) and it more encourages people walking about and yammering with each other more than needing the GM to babysit.  

And I could easily help out as assistant GM in that regard.

I'll be talking with him more tomorrow as a bunch of us are driving up to some bardic music thingie.

I mean, I could take over as a GM, but I wouldn't do Changeling.  I would do Paranoia where the GM is supposed to be an unfair cruel assbag.

But I would rather not.  I'm sure we can get the GM going right.  Its just a matter of patience and time.

If not, I can always just play more 40K each month.  But I am sure it won't come to that.  Worse comes to worse, we will have him run the game on our other game day for a smaller crowd who is more likely to not give him any trouble.  (The suggestions for fewer people while he gets a handle on things is a good one too.)

Quote from: Old Geezer;309754I'd have killed you and taken your toy robot.

:rotfl:

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309814I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies mainly because its mostly bullshit.  I deal cards at a casino.  Dorks do NOTHING any better or worse than "normals".  Trust me.  The behavior I see there makes even your average creepy gamer thread seem nancy.  We nerds are people too, and do the same dumb shit.

Oh, I don't buy the idea that the GSFs are universally true for all people with nerdish pursuits. But I do think that ideas very much like them can potentially infect any social group, and it does sound like that they're at work in this situation.

Quote from: Warthur;309719Ah, I thought he might have mentioned in a previous post that he has some sort of disorder which makes him run his mouth off constantly if he doesn't have a distraction, or some other explanation as to why he thinks he'd be able to shout down 7 other people at the table who sound pretty chatty themselves.

Yeah. That sort of thing is what I'm talking about.

Seanchai

I never said I would be able to quiet anyone down I don't think.  I know for sure I wouldn't try.  Back up the GM?  Sure.  I did mention to the group that the GM should do something to hush us a bit though.  Like call a SHUT THE FUCK UP thing.  I've done it as the GM with some of these folks in a Cthulhu game, but I had a smile on my face while doing it.  

The GM as mentioned is a hell of a nice guy and its not his style.  If he really wants me to be his enforcer so to speak I wouldn't mind getting to be the bad guy to hush folks, but I would probably feel bad doing it.  It would be entertaining, but I would feel bad.

As mentioned I think we do need a party caller.  Or need to go LARP style.  With WW stuff its pretty easy and card draws work just as well as die rolls really.  It might tweak the X Again rule a touch, but nothing too severe.  Plus it would get people in different spots instead of having us all fit into one dining room.  The din would be lessened, and in seperate rooms the folks not directly involved can do their OT talking at that point.  (Unless I take up as assistant GM.  I'd rather not, but if it helps him out and keeps the game moving I would happily do so.)

I'm not saying I have a disorder or anything as far as talking too much.  I just know my own issues and limitations and strive to be a better guy than the one I was the day before.  Unlike say a certain pundit () I am well aware my poo stinks.  So I try to not be so chatty.

Also if the GM had clued me in about wanting me to drive things and had given me some motivation and plot hooks I would have run with it.  I gave him a couple ideas he didn't feel right about using so I dropped them and was just letting him lead.

In a previous game I had sort of overwritten his plot with the PCs pretty much coming up with our own campaign.  I did not want to steal his thunder and step on his campaign this time.  

We got our wires crossed I think.  A failure to communicate mostly based on trying to do right by each other.  Cuz that's what pals do.  You look out for yer boys and girls and they will do likewise.  

I can possibly see how some of yall might think I was being a douche, but for whatever reason some of yall have a negative opinion of me for which I apologize if its any legitimate reason.  (If its because we disagree on something well go fuck yourself though.  Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I am out to pee in their Corn Flakes.)  Unlike a lot of folks I generally mean well and am not out to hurt people.  Even Internet nerds talking about silly shit like RPGs.

Remember folks: No matter what we love or do, something thinks we are an asshole for it.  

Its why honorifics like Ma'am can't be used in some places.  Passive aggressive jerkwads have decided its a double meaning and instead of being equivalent to Madame or the female version of Sir, it really means Bitch or OMG OOOOLD LADY.

These jerkwads are BAAD PEOPLE who think everyone thinks and acts as they do.

Just because most people don't pick up their trash at the movie theater, or wash their hands after they use the bathroom, or leave their shopping carts in the middle of a parking space instead of putting it 10-20 feet away doesn't mean we all do.

It is interesting I had this game situation discussion with another group of folks and gotten a totally different vibe and response.  Heck one of the folks I was chatting with was playing an IRC game while playing an MMO AND chatting on IRC.  Some of us can do this.  Others not so much.

So peace and love and all.  We learn as we go.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;309814...I don't believe in the Geek Social Fallacies...

You may not believe in the GSF, but the GSF believe in You.