I'm not involved in the DnDNext playtest, but I've read complaints about the at-will cantrips.

I played 0e and 1e and have returned to a solid 0e, but I sort of like the idea of cantrips (in the 0-level spell sense.) So, some time ago, I came up with my own replacement cantrip system. Most of the details are unimportant (it's on my blog and in the last Fight On!, for the curious.) But the primary feature of *my* cantrips is that they don't require spellbooks for preparation: an M-U who knows a cantrip can prep it in 1 ten-minute turn, as long as there's an empty spell slot.

So, for example, if Read Magic were demoted to cantrip status, it's not quite an "at-will" spell. Instead, it can be cast, and then the next time the magic-user had ten minutes to spare, it could be prepped again. It prevents M-Us from running out of spells without actually giving them unlimited spells.

If the cantrips in DnDNext worked that way, would people be less angry?

Quote from: talysman;548356I'm not involved in the DnDNext playtest, but I've read complaints about the at-will cantrips.

I played 0e and 1e and have returned to a solid 0e, but I sort of like the idea of cantrips (in the 0-level spell sense.) So, some time ago, I came up with my own replacement cantrip system. Most of the details are unimportant (it's on my blog and in the last Fight On!, for the curious.) But the primary feature of *my* cantrips is that they don't require spellbooks for preparation: an M-U who knows a cantrip can prep it in 1 ten-minute turn, as long as there's an empty spell slot.

So, for example, if Read Magic were demoted to cantrip status, it's not quite an "at-will" spell. Instead, it can be cast, and then the next time the magic-user had ten minutes to spare, it could be prepped again. It prevents M-Us from running out of spells without actually giving them unlimited spells.

If the cantrips in DnDNext worked that way, would people be less angry?

Your idea is wonderful for 1/2e I can't speak for anybody else but my issue isn't that cantrips are at-will, in fact they better be for me to play Dnd again.  It's that there are direct damage offensive combat cantrips the level of 1st level spells that irk me. Even Fantasy Craft waits for that until level 10.

My idea is cantrips unlimited but cantrips the offensive strength of Magic Missle every 10 rounds (1 minute) without memorizing.

Or maybe every 5 rounds. If it's true at will make it a roll to hit but it must be even stronger.

I actually avoided talking about Magic Missile or other damage cantrips, because I have a separate issue with that. I think a cantrip should do 1 point of damage max, and MM seems overpowered to me even as a 1st level spell.

Quote from: talysman;548611I actually avoided talking about Magic Missile or other damage cantrips, because I have a separate issue with that. I think a cantrip should do 1 point of damage max, and MM seems overpowered to me even as a 1st level spell.

That definitely goes back to old school which made them pretty useless and not enough to bother with. I definitely have a different school of thought on them but whatever works for your game best.

For Orisons or Cantrips... I can see a turn (10 minutes) of prayer/prep to fill an empty slot being a nice alternative method of speeding up things. I don't know if I'd use it in my games; I might add a short rest or hour nap following up to cement the slot or something. But considering I reserve only the weakest of effects for 0-level (dunno if I'd drop Read or Detect Magic, or even Light, in that group), it sounds like a solid compromise.

Quote from: talysman;548611I actually avoided talking about Magic Missile or other damage cantrips, because I have a separate issue with that. I think a cantrip should do 1 point of damage max, and MM seems overpowered to me even as a 1st level spell.

I don't think its overpowered, specifically BECAUSE the wizard can only use it once.   Hell, in old-school terms Sleep is a much more powerful 1st level spell.

Anyways, as for the "1 point damage" thing, that's fine in 0e and 1e and 2e, but once you get to the newer editions  (3-5e), 1 point of damage isn't worth anything at all anymore. It won't even trigger a morale check.

That's what happens in our society, between rampant inflation and the lose of moraleity.

RPGPundit

I like cantrips being things you need, but don't impact combat/adventuring directly.

Personally the cantrips I'd make (or rather would like to see are):
Light
Read Magic
Detect Magic
Find Familiar
Read Languages
Ventriloquism

Plus of course some of the classics like "Mend', "Color", "Groom" etc.

For Orisons I'd go similarly with things that don't need to be balanced to "combat" encounter, even if a creative player can use those things, its still not as big as the stuff that impacts the mythic goal of play-balance.

For a cleric:
Detect Evil
Detect Magic
Light
Resist Cold/Heat

Basically I feel that 4E had a couple of smart things for spellcaster: Implements (albeit, not sure about the "Orb") and Rituals, but rather than long term take time for effect, I want cantrips that can be repeated often, but have less game impact, while still being useful.

Quote from: RPGPundit;548880I don't think its overpowered, specifically BECAUSE the wizard can only use it once.   Hell, in old-school terms Sleep is a much more powerful 1st level spell.

Anyways, as for the "1 point damage" thing, that's fine in 0e and 1e and 2e, but once you get to the newer editions  (3-5e), 1 point of damage isn't worth anything at all anymore. It won't even trigger a morale check.

I agree with these statements.

Quote from: talysman;548611I actually avoided talking about Magic Missile or other damage cantrips, because I have a separate issue with that. I think a cantrip should do 1 point of damage max, and MM seems overpowered to me even as a 1st level spell.

Quote from: RPGPundit;548880I don't think its overpowered, specifically BECAUSE the wizard can only use it once.   Hell, in old-school terms Sleep is a much more powerful 1st level spell.

Anyways, as for the "1 point damage" thing, that's fine in 0e and 1e and 2e, but once you get to the newer editions  (3-5e), 1 point of damage isn't worth anything at all anymore. It won't even trigger a morale check.

That's what happens in our society, between rampant inflation and the lose of

That's more an indictment of newer editions than an argument against 1 point of damage. Hell, even if they insist on having high hp and high damage output, that's no reason to disallow a morale check. That's a design decision to turn combats into slug-fests.

Magic Missile is over-powered in my view because it is (1) ranged damage, (2) close to the 1d6 range, (3) scaled to level, and (4) always hits, no save. I'd rather that they pick just two for a 1st level spell, or move it up to 2nd level. Otherwise, it steals the thunder from Lightning Bolt and Fireball.

Several editions *do* drop one or two of those items or move it to 2nd level. Dropping it to 0 level and making it at-will is just nonsense. I wouldn't object to that as much, though, if it were a spell that caused a *physical* missile to fly from the caster's hand and automatically hit an opponent -- basically, just allows you to fire arrows without a bow or a chance of missing the target. That way, an M-U is limited by the number of arrows on hand.

I think magical power needs to be a finite resource or it becomes less and less magical, at least for beings in the game world that learn to use magic as opposed to natural born magical beings.

If a 1st level magic user can create light completely at will with no limitations then it becomes just a flashlight with an ever-charged battery.

Even if cantrip slots were quite a bit more than spell slots, such as 1 per point of INT per day there would be some expenditure to worry about.

That potential to completely run dry is the difference between someone who learns to access and manipulate magic vs an inherent magical creature such as a solar or a dryad.