http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?6176-John-Wick-Sells-7th-Sea-to-Chaosium
Could be worse.
Could have been sold to EN Publishing, and renamed 7.T.H. S.E.A. :D
Quote from: kythri;1082031could be worse.
Could have been sold to en publishing, and renamed 7.t.h. S.e.a. :d
c.l.a.s.s.i.c. ;)
7th (politically correct) Sea?
Huh? Didn't 7th Sea 2e have a $1M Kickstarter years ago? Did he deliver all the books?
Chaosium getting 7th Sea isn't good news.
Fortunately, 7th Sea 1e is easy enough to find on eBay. The core books are great fun. The later setting stuff in the splats do more to harm the coolness of the presentation of the setting in the core book.
If 2E wasn't utter trash system-wise, I would enjoy these news. But since apparently nobody plays this game anyway, does it really matter?
When will somebody step up and do an actual 2nd edition/revision of the original 1E game? Not some wonky storygame designed by a lunatic egomaniac that happens to share the same name.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1082158If 2E wasn't utter trash system-wise, I would enjoy these news. But since apparently nobody plays this game anyway, does it really matter?
I play. I've been running it since the core book was released. The system isn't "utter trash" (though you may not like it). And yes, it does matter.
Tom
The kickstarter made a lot of money, but the rewards were too cheap. I think I got a physical copy of the core book, pdfs of the entire 1e/d20 line, and all the pdfs of the 2e for $40? So I never needed to spend another dime. I would have probably bought more physical copies if the system had been less wonky.
"Upon acquiring this new game line, Chaosium's paramount objective for 7th Sea is the fulfilment of the outstanding rewards from the 7th Sea Second Edition and 7th Sea Khitai Kickstarters."
I don't like John Wick at all but it appears he's doing the right thing and fulfilling the kickstarter. It's all to easy to just skip out on fulfillment.
I participated in the KS and, to my knowledge (I'm not following the KS page every week), the stretch goals have been released consistently. I'm really happy with this project and management.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1082389"Upon acquiring this new game line, Chaosium's paramount objective for 7th Sea is the fulfilment of the outstanding rewards from the 7th Sea Second Edition and 7th Sea Khitai Kickstarters."
I don't like John Wick at all but it appears he's doing the right thing and fulfilling the kickstarter. It's all to easy to just skip out on fulfillment.
So Chaosium is jumping in with spending money to fulfill promises that have already been paid for? They must think that there's a lot of profits left to be squeezed, but don't most profits drop off after the initial core books are put out? They aren't talking about a 3e, but isn't that where the money return is likely to be?
Quote from: HappyDaze;1082494So Chaosium is jumping in with spending money to fulfill promises that have already been paid for? They must think that there's a lot of profits left to be squeezed, but don't most profits drop off after the initial core books are put out? They aren't talking about a 3e, but isn't that where the money return is likely to be?
Well its a sure bet that Chaosium isn't in this for charity or a tax write-off. 7th Sea has a pretty deep well of material in various stages of development, including a novel, a board game, a LARP, and a sci-fantasy variant in addition the the KSed lines. Plus we don't know the terms of John Wick's contract with them. I'm sure they are getting something out of this beyond the joy and satisfaction of fulfilling someone else's kickstarter obligations.
Either way, I'm interested to see what a company with an established marketing arm and distribution chain can do with the game. Even fully staffed, JWP didn't have much in the way of either. Let's check the waters this time next year--I'll bet we'll have a clearer picture of their plans.
Tom
John Wick isn't the Bogeyman. He's the game designer you send to kill the Bogeyman.
JG
SJWaosium has its own track record of bad decisions, so maybe this is their newest one. Though I agree with Blusponge, there is value in the 7th Sea IP so let's see what the brand and fanbase looks like in June 2020.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1082494So Chaosium is jumping in with spending money to fulfill promises that have already been paid for? They must think that there's a lot of profits left to be squeezed, but don't most profits drop off after the initial core books are put out? They aren't talking about a 3e, but isn't that where the money return is likely to be?
The article mentions that John Wick has agreed to write some non-7th Sea supplements for Chaosium. It is probably a complicated compensation package where Chaosium gets 7th Sea and some supplements written and Wick gets his Kickstarter cleared up and some guaranteed writing gigs (and, most likely, some cash).
Kickstarter was too good. Why would I ever give him another dime of my money when he gave me: 1st edition pdfs, d20 pdfs, a physical core rulebook, and pdfs of most of what he produced?
At the time, I thought that the kickstarter was a brilliant business move. Offering a mechanism to purchase sourcebooks right there at the time of your initial core rule purchase, when people would be most primed to make such a purchase. It would also generate real, solid pre order numbers for the entire line. And, while collecting all of this money for an entire line up front, he also got the added attention to his kickstarter for how large it was - more attention, more eyes, more sales.
But the long tail isn't what it used to be in the industry. The Khitai kickstarter was very good - but still only a sixth the size of 7th Sea Second Edition. The war of the cross board game didn't fund. Did 2018 have any big kickstarters for John Wick Presents? I'm not certain, but I think the answer's going to be no. So, as much as I like Wick's writing, and the settings he's come up with - I can see how a magnificent start might have lead directly to a cash flow problem.
Quote from: ArtemisAlpha;1083006At the time, I thought that the kickstarter was a brilliant business move. Offering a mechanism to purchase sourcebooks right there at the time of your initial core rule purchase, when people would be most primed to make such a purchase. It would also generate real, solid pre order numbers for the entire line. And, while collecting all of this money for an entire line up front, he also got the added attention to his kickstarter for how large it was - more attention, more eyes, more sales.
I'm still not convinced it isn't a good move. I think the flaw in the execution--and this is complete armchair quarterbacking on my part--is that the KS model relied entirely on the sale of PRINTED books. By that I mean, if you paid your $40, you got EVERYTHING in pdf. But if you wanted printed books, you upped your pledge for each book you wanted. I'm not sure the KS would have been as successful if each 2nd ed sourcebook pdf had been a $10 add-on, but I think the model would have been more sustainable.
I
think the idea was meant to appeal to collectors over players. I don't do a lot of kickstarters, but I am shocked at the number of comments where backers would throw money at the project and then re-emerge months later asking basic questions about releases and deliveries long after fulfillment had begun. Is that typical with big KS projects?
Tom
Quote from: Blusponge;1083087I'm still not convinced it isn't a good move. I think the flaw in the execution--and this is complete armchair quarterbacking on my part--is that the KS model relied entirely on the sale of PRINTED books. By that I mean, if you paid your $40, you got EVERYTHING in pdf. But if you wanted printed books, you upped your pledge for each book you wanted. I'm not sure the KS would have been as successful if each 2nd ed sourcebook pdf had been a $10 add-on, but I think the model would have been more sustainable.
I think the idea was meant to appeal to collectors over players. I don't do a lot of kickstarters, but I am shocked at the number of comments where backers would throw money at the project and then re-emerge months later asking basic questions about releases and deliveries long after fulfillment had begun. Is that typical with big KS projects?
Tom
I had absolutely zero interest in a super-narrative version of 7th Sea. I kickstarted for the set of 1st Edition pdfs alone. If some interesting setting material came out of 2nd Edition, it would be a welcome surprise.
I doubt I was the only one.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1083091I had absolutely zero interest in a super-narrative version of 7th Sea. I kickstarted for the set of 1st Edition pdfs alone. If some interesting setting material came out of 2nd Edition, it would be a welcome surprise.
I doubt I was the only one.
I'm sure you weren't. But it begs the question: would you have backed it at the $40 level if all you got were PDFs of the 1st ed line and the 2nd ed core book?
Tom
Quote from: Blusponge;1083105I'm sure you weren't. But it begs the question: would you have backed it at the $40 level if all you got were PDFs of the 1st ed line and the 2nd ed core book?
Tom
I can't speak for him, but if you want the 1st ed PDF's that would still be a very good deal.
And it is worth mentioning that one only got to see the previews of the actual 2nd edition system after you backed it, and John Wick already had your money.
But, for those that the new system was a turnoff, the original Kickstarter deal was otherwise so ridiculously good, many just let it ride thinking at the very least they might be able to pinch some of the new setting material.
So IMHO, Wick got a big false market signal for his game, and proceeded to overextend himself thinking new sales of his very popular kickstarter would make up the difference.
But I think that once reviews of the new system came out, it was a turnoff for enough potential buyers, that new non-kickstarter sales never really took off.
And so, Chaosium...
Quote from: Jaeger;1083109I can't speak for him, but if you want the 1st ed PDF's that would still be a very good deal.
And it is worth mentioning that one only got to see the previews of the actual 2nd edition system after you backed it, and John Wick already had your money.
But, for those that the new system was a turnoff, the original Kickstarter deal was otherwise so ridiculously good, many just let it ride thinking at the very least they might be able to pinch some of the new setting material.
So IMHO, Wick got a big false market signal for his game, and proceeded to overextend himself thinking new sales of his very popular kickstarter would make up the difference.
But I think that once reviews of the new system came out, it was a turnoff for enough potential buyers, that new non-kickstarter sales never really took off.
And so, Chaosium...
That's where one of my friends fell. He absolutely loves 7S1e and jumped in. Then he got the 2e rules and hated them. He was still happy enough with the kickstarter since he now had all of those 1e pdfs, but he wasn't about to drop another dime on 2e stuff. I'd imagine there are plenty of others that had similar reactions.
John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1083214John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.
I don't think that he 'lost' anything so much as his personal gaming / GM preferences have changed.
The diepool mechanic in Houses of the Blooded is a kissing cousin to the new 7th sea.
The fact that his kickstarter deal was just a little too good for financial sense, was compounded by the fact that most of his potential future buyers are not in the same place as him in terms of system preference.
He put his money where his mouth was system wise with the new 7th sea, and... Chaosium.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1083214John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.
I'm not sure how much Wick was responsible for the design aspect of R/K, particularly with 7th Sea. I don't think Kevin Wilson gets enough credit for his contribution. When I met both of them at GenCon back in the day, Kevin was the one who was always fiddling with mechanics (swordsman schools). He was also responsible for some of the chunkier sourcebooks early in the line.
Last time I checked, Kevin was developing board games at FFG.
Also remember that Mike Curry was the main mechanics guy behind 7th Sea 2e. For me, all this points to Wick being more the big picture director/executive producer type more than the mechanics guy. But I could be wrong about that. I've heard rumors that the basis for the Raise mechanic in 7S2 was prototyped in an unreleased game of his that was being developed before he bought the rights to 7th Sea. So....
Tom
Quote from: Spinachcat;1083214John Wick lost his RPG design mojo when he left AEG. His work on L5R 1e and 7th Sea 1e was excellent back in the day.
I'm not sure how much Wick was responsible for the design aspect of R/K, particularly with 7th Sea. I don't think Kevin Wilson gets enough credit for his contribution. When I met both of them at GenCon back in the day, Kevin was the one who was always fiddling with mechanics (swordsman schools). He was also responsible for some of the chunkier sourcebooks early in the line.
Last time I checked, Kevin was developing board games at FFG.
Also remember that Mike Curry was the main mechanics guy behind 7th Sea 2e. For me, all this points to Wick being more the big picture director/executive producer type more than the mechanics guy. But I could be wrong about that. I've heard rumors that the basis for the Raise mechanic in 7S2 was prototyped in an unreleased game of his that was being developed before he bought the rights to 7th Sea. So....
Tom
I've gamed with Wilson and Wick at the LA conventions back when AEG used to have a big booth and demo presence. Kevin Wilson is very nice guy, but John Wick is the far better GM. I would not be surprised Wick was responsible for setting fluff and Wilson was doing system crunch, especially as Wilson's games were very rules-as-written and Wick's games used his own system as an afterthought.
They should team up again.
Quote from: Blusponge;1083252I'm not sure how much Wick was responsible for the design aspect of R/K, particularly with 7th Sea....
Also remember that Mike Curry was the main mechanics guy behind 7th Sea 2e. For me, all this points to Wick being more the big picture director/executive producer type more than the mechanics guy. But I could be wrong about that. I've heard rumors that the basis for the Raise mechanic in 7S2 was prototyped in an unreleased game of his that was being developed before he bought the rights to 7th Sea. So.......
I think this article where in takling about the James Bond 007 RPG, he states that: "...me and Dave Williams stealing the bidding mechanic for Legend of the Five Rings RPG. But that's a different story."
https://web.archive.org/web/20070313041436/http://www.fandomlife.net/fln/article.cfm?ID=23
So he was involved mechanically in the RPGs on some level.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1083304I've gamed with Wilson and Wick at the LA conventions back when AEG used to have a big booth and demo presence. ... Wilson's games were very rules-as-written and Wick's games used his own system as an afterthought.
....
He probably already leaned to a more fast and loose playstyle. And he made the system
He wanted to use for 2e 7th Sea.
But I don't think it was a system change the majority of the 1st ed fans were willing to follow his direction on.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1082140Huh? Didn't 7th Sea 2e have a $1M Kickstarter years ago? Did he deliver all the books?
well, funny thing, he used a bunch of the money from the 2 kickstarters to invest in other stuff for the IP, boardgames, video games, a potential movie, things like that. All of which cost money. Money that the bakcers had assumed were going to be going to authors and artists, not Wick's vanity.
Quote from: remial;1083343well, funny thing, he used a bunch of the money from the 2 kickstarters to invest in other stuff for the IP, boardgames, video games, a potential movie, things like that. All of which cost money. Money that the bakcers had assumed were going to be going to authors and artists, not Wick's vanity.
Well, now that was just stupid.
I'm sure Wick is more of a "big picture guy" as opposed to a rules designer... if this is the picture:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3320[/ATTACH]
Quote from: Jaeger;1083402Well, now that was just stupid.
Depends on if he produced the product payed for or not?
Few years ago I helped with the investigation into a supposed KS publisher for Doom that came to Atlantic City who took the backers money and instead bought movie making gear and started making indie movies. Instead of paying the artists or making the game. He got caught and now his income is being monitored towards paying off the debt.
And many a year ago the creator of SuperDudes took the money for the physical card game and instead invested it in a new business and all the customers never got a thing. Got away with it too as of last check.
Quote from: Omega;1083408Depends on if he produced the product payed for or not?
....
Not all of it...
Quote from: remial;1083343well, funny thing, he used a bunch of the money from the 2 kickstarters to invest in other stuff for the IP, boardgames, video games, a potential movie, things like that. All of which cost money. Money that the bakcers had assumed were going to be going to authors and artists, not Wick's vanity.
If you are talking about the War of the Cross boardgame and the cinematic trailer, those were stretch goals outlined in the initial project and were exceeded. It's all right there on the kickstarter page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnwickpresents/7th-sea-second-edition). Here is a clip. It was all very transparent and up front. Not some back alley vanity project that no one knew about before hand. Unless you know something I don't.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3328[/ATTACH]
If you are talking about the cRPG that Stewart Wieck attempted to kickstart (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1861515217/voyage-of-fortunes-star-a-7th-sea-crpg/) before his death, I have no idea if any of that funding came from JWP. However, given the fact he was kickstarting it, not John Wick or JWP, suggests that he was the one funding it and, more than likely, paying some sort of licensing fee TO JWP (who owned the property). Again, I don't have any behind the scenes info on the project, other than that I followed it (I didn't back it).
So I suppose backers could have been blindsided by all of these projects, but only if they weren't paying attention. Not because JWP took the money and ran. I have 7 nice, full color hard cover books sitting on myself that were produced by the kickstarter before they hit financing issues. But if you can give us a ballpark of how much money went to these other vanity projects, I'm all ears. Because everything you outlined was pretty much front and center and announced in the clear blue.
(Full disclosure: I backed the KS at the physical core book level. So I have PDFs of everything produced. I bought physical copies of the sourcebooks after they were release. Because I like books and I like the game.)
Tom
Quote from: Blusponge;1083457If you are talking about the War of the Cross boardgame and the cinematic trailer, those were stretch goals outlined in the initial project and were exceeded. It's all right there on the kickstarter page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnwickpresents/7th-sea-second-edition). Here is a clip. It was all very transparent and up front. Not some back alley vanity project that no one knew about before hand. Unless you know something I don't. ...
Ahh, so just the original kickstarter being its over extended too good to make financial sense self.
Still kinda stupid. But in fairness the history of the hobby has shown that RPG guys are not necessarily good business guys. Wick has plenty of company.
Quote from: Jaeger;1083473Ahh, so just the original kickstarter being its over extended too good to make financial sense self.
Still kinda stupid. But in fairness the history of the hobby has shown that RPG guys are not necessarily good business guys. Wick has plenty of company.
Yeah it seems like you need the creative guys to set up the company and then get the conservative guys in to run it.