Quote from: Akrasia;547573Some quick points:

1. BRP remains the system for all of Chaosium's RPGs. It is inconceivable that CoC 7e will not remain a BRP game.  So long as CoC remains a BRP game, it will enjoy effective 'backwards compatibility' with past CoC material.

2. Retaining 'backwards compatibility' with Chaosium's vast CoC archive is important for their business.  They reissue versions of old material every so often, usually with very few revisions.  This makes them money, keeps the fans happy, and is easy for them to do.  An incompatible CoC 7e would undermine this convenient revenue stream.

3. I suspect that CoC 7e will be brought closer mechanically to core BRP. This may strike longtime CoC fanatics as a 'radical revision', but few others will notice.  I would not be surprised if CoC 7e will look a lot like Cubicle 7's (BRP-based) 'Laundry' RPG. If so, longtime fans of CoC have nothing to worry about.

The last 'radical revision' to CoC involved a rewrite of the sanity rules and a boost to starting PCs' skill points.   Even if CoC 7e is a more radical revision than that, I very much doubt that overall continuity will be threatened.

I think the most radical changes that Chaosium would do, would be something kinda like the jump from Stormbringer 4th to Elric/Stormbringer 5th. To the hardcore fan it was a big change, but to the casual fan it's still the old 1d100 system.

Quote from: Claudius;547618Why? To keep an evergreen copy of the game always available.

You don't need a new edition for that. There are already several serviceable ones in existence, I know, I own three of them.

Quote from: Aos;547578This all  seems pretty reasonable. I'm just curious, though, why put out a new edition at all? Who is the customer here?

People that by books.

And since books do go out of print over time, book printing companies come and go as do publishing contracts.  Book printing technology improves.  RPG companies have to submit their book in a new digital format if it is to ever see ink on its pages.  Might was well improve on the art and character sheets if a new format is to be done.

Quote from: Aos;547620You don't need a new edition for that. There are already several serviceable ones in existence, I know, I own three of them.

And you don't need three editions of the book.

Quote from: Aos;547620You don't need a new edition for that. There are already several serviceable ones in existence, I know, I own three of them.

Well, all books have a print run, when they all sell they aren't available any more. That's the point of new editions. Chaosium is one of the few companies that don't try to sell a different game with an old name.

Quote from: Benoist;547579What if CoC7 was actually a translation of the French version of the game? That would qualify as a big change, and yet, it's very much the same game using the same mechanics at its core. It just adds tons of bells and whistles for players and Keepers.

That would be terrific.

I would be thrilled if this were the case.

And my head would explode with joy if they also kept the same art and layout.

Quote from: Aos;547620You don't need a new edition for that. There are already several serviceable ones in existence, I know, I own three of them.

As others have pointed out, the company needs to print new books eventually (assuming that they are doing well enough to sell through their initial stock).

Chaosium occasionally has taken the opportunity to modify a few things before certain printings.  These usually are minor -- rewritten rules that weren't previously clear enough, reorganizing the rules, changing some of the art, etc.  Often new things are added (e.g., 6e has four starting scenarios whereas 1e only had one; 1e only covered the 1920s, while 6e tries to cover the 1890s and the modern era as well).  And sometimes actual rules changes are made (the only two of which I can think of is the rewriting of the sanity rules and the boost to starting characters).

Overall, a Chaosium 'new edition' is simply an errata'd, reorganized reprint of the previous edition.

It sounds like 7e may be a more radical revision.  But 'radical' for Chaosium likely means 'tiny' for any other RPG company.

Quote from: Claudius;547619I think the most radical changes that Chaosium would do, would be something kinda like the jump from Stormbringer 4th to Elric/Stormbringer 5th. To the hardcore fan it was a big change, but to the casual fan it's still the old 1d100 system.

Yes, I suspect that that would be upper limit of the scope of any changes between CoC 6e and 7e.  Actually, I would be very surprised if the changes were this great.

Quote from: Benoist;547579What if CoC7 was actually a translation of the French version of the game? That would qualify as a big change, and yet, it's very much the same game using the same mechanics at its core. It just adds tons of bells and whistles for players and Keepers.

That would be terrific.

you fucking tease

Quote from: Imperator;547595Don't be a tease and explain us the changes IN ENGLISH!!

hear hear!

Quote from: Imperator;547595Don't be a tease and explain us the changes IN ENGLISH!!

Quote from: beeber;547754you fucking tease

hear hear!

I can't go into the full detail right now.

You have three level of game play which impact character generation. Lovecraftian Horror is the weakest, and generates the characters you are familiar with (EDUx20 and INTx10 Skills). Occult Investigation modifies the multipliers on your EDU and INT to generate your starting skill scores upward (EDUx30 and INTx15). Pulp Adventures goes further (EDUx40 and INTx20 skills) and adds starting Aplomb, which is a value that is basically substracted from all your Sanity losses and reflects your endurance to psychological trauma, because you've "been there before" in some way.

The character generation allows you to choose between templates, premade characters with skills and ability scores and profession done for you, or use the EDU and INT repartitions you are familiar with, or use straight, fixed point-buy independent from your ability scores altogether.

The skill list was reworked.

The rules separate the "essential rules" which are basically the ones you know from the "advanced toolbox" full of details for the Keeper to add to the complexity of the game however he sees fit. Combat rules are greatly detailed and include descriptions of particularities like the use of martial arts, suppressing fire and firefights, sniping versus shooting in contact, shooting when you're not seeing what you're shooting at, automatic fire v. semi automatic, weapons breaking down...

Chapter on Sanity and medical conditions has been expanded, with rules for regaining your sanity in a variety of fashions, sessions, retirement in a home, alternate, non-scientific methods of the time, etc, and also deals with relapses, nightmares, physical injury and reeducation, artificial limbs and prothesis (Great War), and so on.

Then you have an entire chapter dealing with investigations, clues, searching in libraries, types of searches of crime scenes and locations you don't know, whether you are trusting other people to do the searching for you (like say, men under your command in the police or the army) and how that works, using aids in research, scientific methods and their applications on the field, following individuals with discretion, using vehicles or on foot, etc.

Then a chapter on social interactions follows, where the use of such skills is described in great detail. It's not just a matter of rolling and that's it. There are a lot of factors at play, role playing is paramount, you get rules to combine skills, use different methods in the same interaction, etc etc. Everything is covered from interrogation to negociation to torture to making pressure with your relations for someone to talk, blackmail, etc.

Then an entire chapter on chases, types of vehicles and appropriate skills, hitting each other with the vehicles, and on. Then another chapter on the management of the environment, using the senses for descriptions and how that plays on the skills you use, ask rolls for and ideally when and how, etc. followed by a detailed discussion of movement modes and how they are reflected by the rules. Then factors of the environment, temperature, acid and explosions, falls of objects or people, fire and strangulation, wind and humidity, floods and effects of air rarification and great heights on the PCs, etc.

Then a technical chapter about cars and weapons and all that technological stuff. How to take care of it, when it breaks down, how to repair it yourself or find people to repair it in the 20s, how to analyze problems and solve them, how to destroy machines effectively, etc.

Then everything you need to know about afflictions, diseases, poisons, vaccins, medicines and antidotes, injuries and infection.

Here, that's basically the basic rules and advanced tools right there. That's not half the book. I haven't gone into the occult, the tomes, the different facades of the occult, the entities of the mythos, the spells, the magical lore and items some entities manipulate, how real myths can be reinterpreted using the mythos (including dozens of different ideas and suggestions), the Keeper's section of the rules proper, including the Dreamlands, and so on, so forth.

Quote from: Benoist;547770I can't go into the full detail right now.

You have three level of game play which impact character generation. Lovecraftian Horror is the weakest, and generates the characters you are familiar with (EDUx20 and INTx10 Skills). Occult Investigation modifies the multipliers on your EDU and INT to generate your starting skill scores upward (EDUx30 and INTx15). Pulp Adventures goes further (EDUx40 and INTx20 skills) and adds starting Aplomb, which is a value that is basically substracted from all your Sanity losses and reflects your endurance to psychological trauma, because you've "been there before" in some way.

The character generation allows you to choose between templates, premade characters with skills and ability scores and profession done for you, or use the EDU and INT repartitions you are familiar with, or use straight, fixed point-buy independent from your ability scores altogether.

The skill list was reworked.

The rules separate the "essential rules" which are basically the ones you know from the "advanced toolbox" full of details for the Keeper to add to the complexity of the game however he sees fit. Combat rules are greatly detailed and include descriptions of particularities like the use of martial arts, suppressing fire and firefights, sniping versus shooting in contact, shooting when you're not seeing what you're shooting at, automatic fire v. semi automatic, weapons breaking down...

Chapter on Sanity and medical conditions has been expanded, with rules for regaining your sanity in a variety of fashions, sessions, retirement in a home, alternate, non-scientific methods of the time, etc, and also deals with relapses, nightmares, physical injury and reeducation, artificial limbs and prothesis (Great War), and so on.

Then you have an entire chapter dealing with invertigations, clues, searching in libraries, types of searches of crime scenes and locations you don't know, whether you are trusting other people to do the searching for you (like say, men under your command in the police or the army) and how that works, using aids in research, scientific methods and their applications on the field, following individuals with discretion, using vehicles or on foot, etc.

Then a chapter on social interactions follows, where the use of such skills is described in great detail. It's not just a matter of rolling and that's it. There are a lot of factors at play, role playing is paramount, you get rules to combine skills, use different methods in the same interaction, etc etc. Everything is covered from interrogation to negociation to torture to making pressure with your relations for someone to talk, blackmail, etc.

Then an entire chapter on chases, types of vehicles and appropriate skills, hitting each other with the vehicles, and on. Then another chapter on the management of the environment, using the senses for descriptions and how that plays on the skills you use, ask rolls for and ideally when and how, etc. followed by a detailed discussion of movement modes and how they are reflected by the rules. Then factors of the environment, temperature, acid and explosions, falls of objects or people, fire and strangulation, wind and humidity, floods and effects of air rarification and great heights on the PCs, etc.

Then a technical chapter about cars and weapons and all that technological stuff. How to take care of it, when it breaks down, how to repair it yourself or find people to repair it in the 20s, how to analyze problems and solve them, how to destroy machines effectively, etc.

Then everything you need to know about afflictions, diseases, poisons, vaccins, medicines and antidotes, injuries and infection.

Here, that's basically the basic rules and advanced tools right there. That's not half the book. I haven't gone into the occult, the tones, the different facades of the occult, the entities of the mythos, the spells, the magical lore and items some entities manipulate, how real myths can be reinterpreted using the mythos (including dozens of different ideas and suggestions), the Keeper's section of the rules proper, including the Dreamlands, and so on, so forth.

Fuck. Me. :eek:

Quote from: Imperator;547776Fuck. Me. :eek:

Yeah. That's like. THE Cthulhu toolbox, man.

thanks, man.  very cool!  i'm still using the old GW 3rd edition hardcover and occasionally the 80s cthulhu now book.  behind the times a bit, not that it matters much with this system.

Quote from: beeber;547817thanks, man.  very cool!  i'm still using the old GW 3rd edition hardcover and occasionally the 80s cthulhu now book.  behind the times a bit, not that it matters much with this system.

Yeah I have a copy of the 5th myself and honestly I see them as two different tools. Sometimes you just don't want to go with all the bells and whistles and deal with a buttload of options, and I think that's actually where a slim CoC game wins with newbies and gamers who don't want to go for the full toolbox.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;547463They still had great fun playing the game, even though they played it wrong.  

Unpossible.  If you have fun, you can't be playing wrong.

Quote from: Aos;547570I remain unconvinced, if only because there is no other case like this one. What other company has been releasing the same rules under the same name for 30+ years? I think this is a unique situation.

Flying Buffalo's Tunnels & Trolls, maybe?  I don't know much about it, but I thought I had seen it touted as being largely unchanged over the years.

Quote from: Aos;547578This all  seems pretty reasonable. I'm just curious, though, why put out a new edition at all? Who is the customer here?

Now that's a reasonable point.  They could certainly could just order a second printing when they run out of stock.  That's part of the problem, in this case.  What Chaosium calls an edition change falls somewhere between what other publishers would call a new printing and a new edition.  It's more than a straight reprint but it's less than a major overhaul.

The buyers of a new edition will be:

1. collectors
2. new gamers who like to buy new books instead of used books
3. gamers who want to see what's new in the new edition

Chaosium has certainly made plenty of mistakes over the years, but this model seems to work, at least somewhat, as they are still around to be able to make those mistakes, and it's a pretty short list of 30+ year old primarily RPG companies.  I count five: Chaosium, Flying Buffalo, ICE, Hero, and Palladium.  Which of those are at all significant forces these days?