6th Edition is Going to be Woke as Hell - and Fail

S'mon · March 10, 2023, 07:54:23 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2023, 06:02:45 AM
Quote from: Krugus on March 10, 2023, 12:43:56 AM
Its one of the reasons why I hacked my own system from OSE and then printed them via lulu.com and handed them out to my players

TBH, I'm sure most of you guys are like me and all you need is a set of dice, paper, and a pencil and you can make everything up on the fly easily enough without any books.

Given a GM with some modest, thoughtful experience, that's always been enough. The main benefits of a set system from someone else are to smooth that learning curve for GM and players, avoid the work of having to make and document your rules/rulings, and transfer that knowledge to another group. There are, of course, many potential secondary benefits, such as having inspiring art and ready-made adventures.

If they were Woke and somehow still delivering quality, then I doubt we'd be having this conversation. However, woke and quality have a negative feedback death spiral effect. It's not get woke, go broke, or even going broke, get woke to try to salvage it. That's the short version. The slighter longer expansion is the kind of person who is rabid woke is allergic to real work, limited at discerning quality, and imaginatively bankrupt. Also, they tend to sense this about themselves and be insecure about it, with all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid confronting it. In some cases, the rabid woke with substantial natural talent can ride that talent for some time, especially if they haven't yet driven off associates that are maybe less talented but not so limited in real work, discernment, and imagination.

The natural outcome of any quality death spiral is that the benefits of buying a set system decrease, slowly at first and then more rapidly. There is a tipping point where it becomes easier for the thoughtful GM to ignore the system, because it is more work to work around and fix system problems and disentangle players from bad advice than it is to do just document it all yourself from a blank slate--or some other game that's a better starting point.

As with any such quality death spirals in a long beloved franchise, some people will stick no matter what, and many more will hang on long past the point where the franchise was their best choice. I think 6E is probably going to be a monetary success, based of the inertia of the 5E success. What it won't be is a good, useful system that helps people run and learn to run an RPG session. Or something that a thoughtful, moderately experienced GM will find helpful. The consequences of that failure will probably be downstream.

That's an excellent & very insightful analysis. I bolded your description of Mr Crawford. And Mr Brink.

Abraxus · March 11, 2023, 10:38:01 AM

Even before the Woke debacle hit both Wotc and in game I was becoming tired of the edition train. I have every edition of D&D except 4E ( I don't hate it just have enough versions at this point)

Turning 50 this year and even if I was not married I simply can't justify another purchase that is more than likely be 5E with more houserules and new cover and interior art. Plus space is now a limitation. Wokeness is as the expression goes the cherry on top of the whole thing.

I'm either sticking 5E or either version of Pathginder. I would like to run 1E or 2E though those claiming to want an OSR experience but exactly as 5E. I may get more books for 5E especially 3PP

Spinachcat · March 14, 2023, 04:00:15 AM

The D&D movie has very good reviews so far and if successful at the box office and on streaming, WotC will be set up strong for 6e.

As for 6e being a woke shit fest, I don't think that's a negative for the GenZ and GenA fanbase that WotC is seeking because they are woke shit eating morons deeply damaged by the Shamdemic so a Woke D&D they can play from the safety of the safest safe space? Sounds like a winner and mommy can pay the monthly fee.

I'm very cool with leaving D&D and WotC far behind. There are too many GREAT games out there - past and present - and if you can find just 4-5 people willing to play something other than "current D&D", you are good for the rest of your life.

Ratman_tf · March 14, 2023, 04:21:16 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 11, 2023, 10:38:01 AM
Even before the Woke debacle hit both Wotc and in game I was becoming tired of the edition train. I have every edition of D&D except 4E ( I don't hate it just have enough versions at this point)

Turning 50 this year and even if I was not married I simply can't justify another purchase that is more than likely be 5E with more houserules and new cover and interior art. Plus space is now a limitation. Wokeness is as the expression goes the cherry on top of the whole thing.

I'm either sticking 5E or either version of Pathginder. I would like to run 1E or 2E though those claiming to want an OSR experience but exactly as 5E. I may get more books for 5E especially 3PP

Exactly. Eventually people are going to find the edition they like, or cludge together a homemade version out of the various parts. (1E and Basic were fundamentally interchangeable)
When I heard about Coke Zero *ahem* D&D One, I just shrugged. I've seen too much edition churn to care anymore.

oggsmash · March 14, 2023, 05:25:38 AM

Going through 1e after years of not actively reading it I am pretty impressed with many of EGG's developments and insights. I also impressed with how thin an rpg book can be when you do not rely on huge type and overabundant art. The group enjoyed the first outing (though I forgot how deadly 1e is compared to 5e) and we are going to give a full campaign a whirl playing RAW other than perhaps adopting the castles and crusades weapon damages.

Effete · March 14, 2023, 09:10:28 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on March 11, 2023, 10:38:01 AM
I'm either sticking 5E or either version of Pathginder.

I read this as Pathgrinder... which would probably be an accurate title if Paizoo pumped enough gay into it.

SHARK · March 14, 2023, 09:37:02 AM

Quote from: Effete on March 14, 2023, 09:10:28 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 11, 2023, 10:38:01 AM
I'm either sticking 5E or either version of Pathginder.

I read this as Pathgrinder... which would probably be an accurate title if Paizoo pumped enough gay into it.

Greetings!

*HOWLING*!!!

That was so funny, Effete, I almost choked on my coffee from laughing so much!

Yeah. Pathgrinder! WOTC of course, has been leading the way. It wouldn't surprise me if Baizuo ramps up with the rainbow soup even more.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

CountessGina · November 12, 2023, 11:36:46 AM

I stopped paying attention to the editions after 1st ed ended.

Grognard GM · November 12, 2023, 01:43:57 PM

Quote from: CountessGina on November 12, 2023, 11:36:46 AM
I stopped paying attention to the editions after 1st ed ended.

"A travelling Necromancer joins the party."

BadApple · November 12, 2023, 02:34:38 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on November 12, 2023, 01:43:57 PM
"A travelling Necromancer joins the party."

This made me laugh harder than it should have. Great response.

migo · November 12, 2023, 02:41:24 PM

Quote from: Effete on March 14, 2023, 09:10:28 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 11, 2023, 10:38:01 AM
I'm either sticking 5E or either version of Pathginder.

I read this as Pathgrinder... which would probably be an accurate title if Paizoo pumped enough gay into it.

Even without the gay innuendo it's still accurate. PF is based on 3.5, where the whole culture was to design your character at level 20, but then start at level 1 and then spend months or years soldiering on until you achieved the character you designed in the first place.

jmarso · November 12, 2023, 02:54:09 PM

WOTC won't ever see another penny of my money.

I've got all the materials I need to run DnD games from this moment until the day I kark it.

Kage2020 · November 12, 2023, 05:27:32 PM

I haven't felt the need to touch D&D since the days of AD&D. The one exception is that my "home" gaming group can get me to play it because gaming with them is generally run despite the shite system that is D&D.

I care less about 6E than I do about 5E, and as much about a "woke" edition as a "racist" edition. And, no, I have no idea what either might look like.

Grognard GM · November 12, 2023, 06:04:49 PM

Quote from: migo on November 12, 2023, 02:41:24 PM
Quote from: Effete on March 14, 2023, 09:10:28 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 11, 2023, 10:38:01 AM
I'm either sticking 5E or either version of Pathginder.

I read this as Pathgrinder... which would probably be an accurate title if Paizoo pumped enough gay into it.

Even without the gay innuendo it's still accurate. PF is based on 3.5, where the whole culture was to design your character at level 20, but then start at level 1 and then spend months or years soldiering on until you achieved the character you designed in the first place.

Grinding xp satisfies my inner autist, don't judge.

Jam The MF · November 12, 2023, 06:05:04 PM

With WOTC and Paizo; selling Woke to the masses via their products, IS their business plan now. There's nothing accidental, or haphazard about it. It is a primary goal; and they are willing to risk everything, to get it done. It's "Go Woke or Die", for both product lines now. And anyone who complains, is just labeled a hater.