Quote from: Phillip;863084If initial mastery is as much a non-issue as it was in my 1970s-80s experience, then price of book is irrelevant because one isn't buying the book just to play (as opposed to set up and referee a game).

The flip side for me is that any sense of needing to know (or look up) those gory details just to be a player raises the bar, making it less likely that I'll be interested. The more I've got to digest, the bigger the hurdle.

One of the things I do is go through an RPG I'm planning to run/play and create a rules summary document. My memory sucks, and this prevents having to page or search through a PDF to find the correct rule.

For Ryuutama, the summary document is 27 pages long. Around 17 pages are the character classes, character creation, spell tables, and equipment lists, most of which are screenshots cut and pasted from the PDF (which take more room). 10 pages are rules, and some of those are full page screenshot cut and pasted because the full page flowcharts work so well.

If I can't do that, or get frustrated during it, the game isn't going to work for me. There is too much stuff to remember during play. I really, really like EABA v2 and if they had a more permissive software license I would code for it. But there are too many rules for me to remember. But I read the entire rulebook, even after deciding I was never going to play it.

Quote from: Bren;863026In your view, is system mastery necessary to play a game?

I feel so, yes.  I want to know what kind of character I can create: for that, I need to know what my choices will do.  I want to know whether my plans will work or not: for that, I need to know what the system will allow me to do, and what my odds are of doing those things with the skills and stats I've got.  I don't want to get wrongfooted about my real world assumptions as to how fast I can run, how long it takes me to perform basic first aid or how long I can survive in an Arctic blizzard if the system has other ideas on these things.

I know there are gamers who aren't bothered by uncertainty on these counts; they take it in stride when they find out their First Aid skill only works 30% of the time, or that the weapon they've got has 1 chance in 5 of scoring a hit on the Big Bad with the armor she's got, or that having the 'Master Chomblaster' merit doesn't actually allow them to chomblast, and that 'chomblasting' isn't really what they think it means.  

I'm not one of those guys.  There is no way in Hell you're going to get me to buy into a "Alright, Bob, we're starting a new Whispers & Wonders campaign, this system is great" scenario that involves the adventure starting five minutes after that sentence.

Quote from: Ravenswing;863373There is no way in Hell you're going to get me to buy into a "Alright, Bob, we're starting a new Whispers & Wonders campaign, this system is great" scenario that involves the adventure starting five minutes after that sentence.

I prefer knowing the rules myself, though it sounds like I'm comfortable with a bit more ambiguity. And as you pointed out, wanting to know the system in great detail significantly increases the switching cost of a new system.

Quote from: Bren;863409I prefer knowing the rules myself, though it sounds like I'm comfortable with a bit more ambiguity. And as you pointed out, wanting to know the system in great detail significantly increases the switching cost of a new system.

"Gary's got this cool new game called Greyhawk, you're a bunch of guys exploring an old abandoned wizard's castle full of monsters and treasure and stuff."

I didn't see the rules until 18 months later.  

Now, granted, we were told it was "medieval" and Gary and Jeff Perren had written CHAINMAIL and we all played that.

OD&D ... 3 half size booklets, Vol 1 32 pp, Vol 2 40 pp, Vol 3 36 pp.  

108 half size pages... 59 full size pages.

Hell, I can use the extra five pages to explain all the assumptions Gary made.

Quote from: Omega;863146Magic Realm clocked in at 80 odd pages for a board game. Got a couple clocking in around 25. Depends on the board game. MR was pretty robust for a board game. Few board games have the scope of an RPG. Even the ones that have RPG-like elements tend to distill it down to one focus. As with any game. The more you want to do with the game. The more rules may end up needed. Or not.

TSR seemed to have a good system down of introducing more and more complex rules in stages with each expansion.

Magic Realm, the old Avalon Hill game?  A good friend of mine bought it when it first came out and spent years following the updates and we never did figure out what the fuck the game was about.  Near as I can tell AH never did either.

Too bad... somebody somewhere had some amazing concepts.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863480"Gary's got this cool new game called Greyhawk, you're a bunch of guys exploring an old abandoned wizard's castle full of monsters and treasure and stuff."

I didn't see the rules until 18 months later.  

Now, granted, we were told it was "medieval" and Gary and Jeff Perren had written CHAINMAIL and we all played that.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863481OD&D ... 3 half size booklets, Vol 1 32 pp, Vol 2 40 pp, Vol 3 36 pp.  

108 half size pages... 59 full size pages.

Hell, I can use the extra five pages to explain all the assumptions Gary made.

You forgot to count pages for Chainmail*. You're 19 pages over budget.


* Chainmail booklet 35 pages + 5 pages of tables = 20 full size pages.

Dump the shitty art and we're good.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863499Dump the shitty art and we're good.

Point. You might still be over. I started to check how many pages the art took up, but after looking at the art in just one booklet, my eyes started bleeding and I had to stop.  

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863482Magic Realm, the old Avalon Hill game?  A good friend of mine bought it when it first came out and spent years following the updates and we never did figure out what the fuck the game was about.  Near as I can tell AH never did either.

Too bad... somebody somewhere had some amazing concepts.

Alot of people play it. Mostly loving it for the sheer complexity of it and how much goes on. And it was playable solo. The version I had before it was stolen walked you through the system in stages, introducing more and more complex stuff with each iteration. Once you get the hang of it it rolled along fairly well.

As noted in another thread. There is a much upgraded PNP version out with input from the designer.

Quote from: Bren;863500Point. You might still be over. I started to check how many pages the art took up, but after looking at the art in just one booklet, my eyes started bleeding and I had to stop.  

If only.  As it happens, a few of my classmates in high school were early adopters of D&D, and a couple of them were on the yearbook staff and had no problems with ganking material for my high school yearbook.  It has the aforementioned shitty clipart riddled through it to cover up white space.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863499Dump the shitty art and we're good.

That was my first thought when I read Mr. Gygax's harsher critique of the original in the game press, but on further thought I figured he was right that more polishing of the presentation was called for. The kind of introduction you and I had is excellent, but a huge wave of people was coming in without that, and without prior experience in hobby game campaigns, and I could see how the booklets alone could be hard sledding.

A few glitches aside, I think Holmes et al did a fine job on the 'Basic' edition (complete with evocative art from Sutherland and Trampier, and some other illustrators in the UK edition). That came to 48 pp., and the further refinement of the 1981 Moldvay-Cook-Marsh edition -- most of the original, plus some of Supp. I, in 128 pp. -- impressed me as very user-friendly.

Frank Mentzer wrote a Basic structured for teaching, but it seemed like a drag as a reference.

On Magic Realm: I bought it, but never found a group of other players with the patience to learn it, and I didn't find it worthwhile solo.

Terrain hex-tiles are a nifty thing, though; I had a Games Workshop set for more strategic scale campaigns that was very nice.

The fantasy board games I'd most like to see in new editions are Wiz-War, Cosmic Encounter, and the Gloranthan duo of White Bear & Red Moon and Nomad Gods. (I think Titan had a new release a few years ago, with a graphic style I didn't like so well as the old one.)

Quote from: Phillip;863548That was my first thought when I read Mr. Gygax's harsher critique of the original in the game press,

I'm a bit puzzled by this, since Gary is the one who chose the art for OD&D.

ME:  "This art is awful, why are you using it?"

GARY:  "Because he works for $2 a picture."

Actual conversation.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863565I'm a bit puzzled by this, since Gary is the one who chose the art for OD&D.

ME:  "This art is awful, why are you using it?"

GARY:  "Because he works for $2 a picture."

Actual conversation.

I can't figure out from that what your puzzlement is. All I know is that when Gary called the original edition effectively a mess, my first response was, "Is not!" because it worked fine for me; but I came to appreciate his wisdom in designing products for a larger demographic.