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64 page RPGs

Started by LouGoncey, October 28, 2015, 08:31:31 AM

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LouGoncey

October 28, 2015, 08:31:31 AM
This is me going off for a little bit.

I am 49.  Roleplay at least once a week.  No problem with that.

I read a metric f**kton of RPG books.

Pleading for a return of 64 page books.  100 pages tops!

Do it for my sanity.  Do it for the kind kids!

Phillip

#1
October 28, 2015, 08:38:46 AM
Doubling that to 128 letter-sized allows layout that might be easier on old eyes. More pages does not necessarily mean a larger word count or more complex rules.

I'm thinking for example of Chaosium's 2nd ed. RuneQuest, the 1979 (5th) edition of Tunnels & Trolls and the 1981 Basic plus Expert edition of Dungeons & Dragons.

Compared with Villains & Vigilantes, or 1st ed. Metamorphosis Alpha (crammed into 32 pp.), the "breathing room" is notable.
And we are here as on a darkling plain  ~ Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, ~ Where ignorant armies clash by night.

LouGoncey

#2
October 28, 2015, 09:15:58 AM
Sure.  I read most on my IPad, so the actual size don't bother me, but 124 pages don't bother me -- let's me keep alot of old school stuff in as well...

Molotov

#3
October 28, 2015, 09:57:35 AM
I was just flipping through Top Secret/S.I. (96 pg Players Guide, 64 page Admin Guide) and really enjoying the smaller page count books and the larger font size (really).

I'm a fan of the 64 - 128 pg books myself ... 64 pages and saddle-stitched if I can.

Brand55

#4
October 28, 2015, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: LouGoncey;862125This is me going off for a little bit.

I am 49.  Roleplay at least once a week.  No problem with that.

I read a metric f**kton of RPG books.

Pleading for a return of 64 page books.  100 pages tops!

Do it for my sanity.  Do it for the kind kids!
This is one of the reasons I'm a huge fan of Pinnacle's decision to put all of their future Savage Worlds stuff into their new graphic novel format. They can fit plenty of material into 96 pages and it's a perfect size for both reading and carrying around.

LouGoncey

#5
October 28, 2015, 11:00:11 AM
Quote from: Molotov;862130I was just flipping through Top Secret/S.I. (96 pg Players Guide, 64 page Admin Guide)

Yeah, I cannot believe Top Secret/SI hasn't been cloned yet -- especially as a cyberpunk game.  It is so damn simple.

Tod13

#6
October 28, 2015, 11:12:42 AM Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 11:50:36 AM by Tod13
BareBones Fantasy is 84 pages, which works pretty well. They have separate books for additional setting information and additional character races.

LouGoncey

#7
October 28, 2015, 11:35:34 AM
I would start with 64 - 128 page books.  Wouldn't care about setting books, as long as they fit into the 64 - 128 page format.

Phillip

#8
October 28, 2015, 02:32:37 PM
Sure, 96 may be a happy medium; 64 to 128 is a nice range. Saddle stiched might not be so conveniently available as perfect (which also gives room on the spine for a title). It's a bit deluxe to go boxed, but then you can have stapled booklets -- even more than one! -- and have nice retail display any which way.
And we are here as on a darkling plain  ~ Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, ~ Where ignorant armies clash by night.

RunningLaser

#9
October 28, 2015, 03:04:30 PM
For games that include a ton of stuff, like world/ planet/ galaxy, monster generation, I give the page count a pass- a small pass.  

Clash here has some great games where I don't mind the page count at all.  Go Clash!

ASL Starter Kit #1 packed in more rules in 12 pages than most rpg's do in 300 pages.  I think what it comes down to is most people who write rpgs suck not only at writing in general, but writing directions.

Also, there's a lot of people who buy games that seem to think page count equals quality, or that if the book can't be put on the coffee table as a piece of art, that it's not worth it.  These people are shitheads.

Just Another Snake Cult

#10
October 28, 2015, 03:19:50 PM
White Wolf and WotC 3ish D&D products were often absurdly overwritten. You could really tell sometimes that they were just shoveling filler to get it up to thick hardcover length.

Shorter is better.
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Soylent Green

#11
October 28, 2015, 03:25:43 PM
Could not agree more. It's not just  reading or the carrying but also the realisation about what actually get's used in play.

My latest effort Cyberblues City is 38 pages, digest-size in large fonts and it's pretty darn complete. I made sure during playtest that only things that actually get used (or were really funny) were included.
New! Cyberblues City - like cyberpunk, only more mellow. Free, fully illustrated roleplaying game based on the Fudge system
Bounty Hunters of the Atomic Wastelands, a post-apocalyptic western game based on Fate. It\'s simple, it\'s free and it\'s in colour!

Ravenswing

#12
October 28, 2015, 05:28:51 PM
Part of this is the proliferation of interior art in books.  I tend to get sneered at when I raise the issue, but as much as a fifth of RPGs books are full of non-map/non-diagram meaningless filler.

Most rationalizations of this are bullshit.  ("Art helps me set the mood for games." "Right, so how often are you flipping the gamebook open during play to p. 206, so you can show the party thief once again the evocative, evocative full color 2/3rds page illo of an ordinary dude picking a lock, and if so, why are your players putting up with it, and why should every purchaser of that gamebook pay an extra dime for it?")

Beyond that, since most texts in our culture -- including, peculiarly enough, the fiction works that are the underpinning of the hobby -- aren't jammed packed with pretty pictures, I'm curious why tabletop gamers are considered so juvenile these days they can't be expected to tolerate a gamebook without them.
This was a cool site, until it became an echo chamber for whiners screeching about how the "Evul SJWs are TAKING OVAH!!!" every time any RPG book included a non-"traditional" NPC or concept, or their MAGA peeners got in a twist. You're in luck, drama queens: the Taliban is hiring.

Ronin

#13
October 28, 2015, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: Ravenswing;862184Part of this is the proliferation of interior art in books.  I tend to get sneered at when I raise the issue, but as much as a fifth of RPGs books are full of non-map/non-diagram meaningless filler.

Most rationalizations of this are bullshit.  ("Art helps me set the mood for games." "Right, so how often are you flipping the gamebook open during play to p. 206, so you can show the party thief once again the evocative, evocative full color 2/3rds page illo of an ordinary dude picking a lock, and if so, why are your players putting up with it, and why should every purchaser of that gamebook pay an extra dime for it?")

Beyond that, since most texts in our culture -- including, peculiarly enough, the fiction works that are the underpinning of the hobby -- aren't jammed packed with pretty pictures, I'm curious why tabletop gamers are considered so juvenile these days they can't be expected to tolerate a gamebook without them.

While I agree with you. I see the purpose or art is also to fill white space. Which evidently according to layout people is the devil. Do you foks agree with that of have I been mislead?
Vive la mort, vive la guerre, vive le sacré mercenaire

Ronin\'s Fortress, my blog of RPG\'s, and stuff

Simlasa

#14
October 28, 2015, 07:12:25 PM Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 07:24:09 PM by Simlasa
Quote from: RunningLaser;862169Also, there's a lot of people who buy games that seem to think page count equals quality, or that if the book can't be put on the coffee table as a piece of art, that it's not worth it.  These people are shitheads.
I get the idea that a number of RPG books are being sold to collectors... which makes their appearance the primary selling point.
Also, I seem to remember some in-the-know person on here mentioning that once you're paying to get a thing printed the extra cost of adding pages is small compared to how much more people are willing to pay for a fatter book... so it tempts publishers to bloat their books.

I'm not a fan of walls of text like some of the old FGU games have, but I'm still quite fond of the clean look of the Classic Traveller books, which had... one? Maybe two illustrations? The white space was managed well in those.
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