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5ed Passive Perception

Started by Scutter, June 13, 2015, 11:08:52 AM

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Matt

#30
June 17, 2015, 02:42:19 PM
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;836439If I flip a coin with a head on both sides, is that 'binary'?
Feel free to invent your own definitions, but if you can't define the difference between 'having a roll to see if it works, yes/no' and 'automatic hit' there may be a problem with them.

I assume this is (1) a joke, or (2) English is a foreign language to you (and presumably Latin and all Latin-derived tongues as well), or (3) you don't actually know what binary means.

Simlasa

#31
June 17, 2015, 02:42:22 PM
I'm not up on all the 5e rules.
Is the Passive Perception modified by the environment?
Like... I'd expect people in a dungeon to be on their toes a lot more than if they're in a familiar 'safe' area... at home or a favorite inn.

Would a trap set in their house by assassins have a better chance of escaping notice because they're relaxed and not assuming danger? Would you give that trap a higher DC against PP?

mAcular Chaotic

#32
June 17, 2015, 03:37:54 PM
Quote from: Simlasa;836987I'm not up on all the 5e rules.
Is the Passive Perception modified by the environment?
Like... I'd expect people in a dungeon to be on their toes a lot more than if they're in a familiar 'safe' area... at home or a favorite inn.

Would a trap set in their house by assassins have a better chance of escaping notice because they're relaxed and not assuming danger? Would you give that trap a higher DC against PP?

Their PP is the same no matter what.

You set the DC on the trap. So just set it to what you think is appropriate. If you think it should be easy to spot, then give it a lower DC.

Passive perception assumes they aren't paying anything any special attention and are just waltzing along. If they actually look for stuff specifically you make a roll with their active Perception score.
Battle doesn\'t need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don\'t ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don\'t ask why I fight.

Matt

#33
June 17, 2015, 04:02:07 PM
The mechanic is the DM just decides whether or not someone notices? Why do you need a score for that?

mAcular Chaotic

#34
June 17, 2015, 04:25:45 PM
The DM decides the DC their passive perception needs to beat to notice it, if they aren't actively looking for it.
Battle doesn\'t need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don\'t ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don\'t ask why I fight.

Christopher Brady

#35
June 17, 2015, 09:14:20 PM
Quote from: jibbajibba;836909Except of course Wisdom is a really stupid stat to use for perception and it exposes the fact that D&D shoudl have bitten the bullet and included a Perception stat as a separate item back in 2e.

The issue there is that you can 'train' yourself to be more observant and perceptive.

But then again, Wisdom isn't the only 'stupid' stat, take Strength for example.  It makes you better to hit things in Melee?  How?  (Well, I have my own answer to that, but it's not the official one.)  There are a lot of 'stupid' stats in D&D, about the only is Dexterity.  And that's pushing it.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Omega

#36
June 18, 2015, 02:07:01 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;836993Their PP is the same no matter what.

You set the DC on the trap. So just set it to what you think is appropriate. If you think it should be easy to spot, then give it a lower DC.

Passive perception assumes they aren't paying anything any special attention and are just waltzing along. If they actually look for stuff specifically you make a roll with their active Perception score.

If you are moving at a run then your passive and active perception checks are penalized a -5. Also other vision obscuring effects can impact your perception checks, and a DM  could make a simple DC 10 trap harder to spot of the area was somehow obscured such as fog, a water layer, etc.
A blinded or status blinded character automatically fails any check that requires sight. Which would include most traps and hiding.

Natty Bodak

#37
June 18, 2015, 11:27:04 PM
Quote from: Omega;837053If you are moving at a run then your passive and active perception checks are penalized a -5. Also other vision obscuring effects can impact your perception checks, and a DM  could make a simple DC 10 trap harder to spot of the area was somehow obscured such as fog, a water layer, etc.
A blinded or status blinded character automatically fails any check that requires sight. Which would include most traps and hiding.

Also, also, perception checks are at disadvantage in dim light, or with dark vision in total darkness. Not sure that's relevant, but for some reason I get joy in pointing that out.
Festering fumaroles vent vile vapors!

mAcular Chaotic

#38
June 19, 2015, 01:46:48 AM
Quote from: Natty Bodak;837162Also, also, perception checks are at disadvantage in dim light, or with dark vision in total darkness. Not sure that's relevant, but for some reason I get joy in pointing that out.

Wow really. Then that DC 20 passive perception in Cragmaw Castle is hilarious now because it's in pitch black.
Battle doesn\'t need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don\'t ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don\'t ask why I fight.

Omega

#39
June 19, 2015, 02:56:28 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;837171Wow really. Then that DC 20 passive perception in Cragmaw Castle is hilarious now because it's in pitch black.

For starting characters? What is the point to setting it so absurdly high?

Or. The 20 takes into account that is IS pitch black? That is why it is so high?

Scutter

#40
June 19, 2015, 03:51:05 AM
Quote from: Omega;837179For starting characters? What is the point to setting it so absurdly high?
This is a major part of why I dislike PP
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." ~ George Bernard Shaw.

mAcular Chaotic

#41
June 19, 2015, 10:42:31 AM
Quote from: Omega;837179For starting characters? What is the point to setting it so absurdly high?

Or. The 20 takes into account that is IS pitch black? That is why it is so high?

It doesn't say anything about the darkness being the reason.

Just that the DC is 20.

The reasoning seems like, "We want them to get hit by this trap, unless they are paying attention and looking out for one."
Battle doesn\'t need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don\'t ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don\'t ask why I fight.

Natty Bodak

#42
June 19, 2015, 11:18:24 AM Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 11:42:59 AM by Natty Bodak
Quote from: Omega;837179For starting characters? What is the point to setting it so absurdly high?

Or. The 20 takes into account that is IS pitch black? That is why it is so high?

Going back to look at it, Cragmaw Castle is dimly lit during the day, and completely dark during night. So, the natural light varies. Apply torches and infinite light cantrips liberally.

But the light doesn't seem to have anything to do with the disparity in the active and passive DCs.

Perhaps the particular trap is an object lesson for the players. Don't bother to check the rubble you're walkng over and you get the DC 20 passive. Do bother to check and you get the DC 10 active.

Since Phandelver is pretty sandboxy you might have 2nd to 4th level PCs there, so someone who invested in the Observant feat could spot the trap passively.

But really, I have no clue why they chose those particular values.
Festering fumaroles vent vile vapors!

Omega

#43
June 19, 2015, 06:04:15 PM
That could be it then. A "Pay attention or get nailed" sort of lesson. Similar to the start of Hoard of the Dragon Queen where direct assaults and attacking everything will tend to get you killed ASAP. Then again 5e has alot of those moments where the modifiers are rolled right into the listing. Like the majority of the MM entries. Could even be a typo.

Who knows. Seems odd. But there is no way to tell what it means I guess.

Scutter

#44
June 20, 2015, 03:22:59 AM Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 06:51:06 AM by Scutter
I think for me it's also waste of a good trap and also effort (not that the DM is out to deliberately kill pcs).

For example, the DM decides to have a swinging blade trap and details it as such. Takes him all of 5 minutes as he's written down a nice little theme/scene setting blurb when it is encountered. He sets the DC at 12. The cleric comes along with a PP of 13 and the trap is completely bypassed.

Wasted effort.

Perhaps not the best example because the DM could still narrate his trap effort without the bits of adventurer hanging off the contraption, but it serves as an example.
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." ~ George Bernard Shaw.
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