Quote from: Omega;784151Various spectral undead, and the various planar beings suggest right out the gate that there is at least some sort of afterlife. Whatever that may be.

Not really. Spectral undead could be like the ghosts in the Harry Potter books - just fragments of memory and personality that have been left behind rather than the "real" person. Or they could be the "psychic impressions" left by people.

QuoteYou could to take Reincarnation and extrapolate that everyone who dies comes back as something else later. but doesnt remember it.

Oh yes. That is also compatible with the book - but I think it's merely compatible with it rather than implied by it. It also potentially runs into problems with the other dead raising spells - they assume that even after 200 years the dead person can still be brought back, so if there is natural reincarnation it would need to take longer than 200 years to happen.

Raise dead had a failure chance in AD&D. Guess theyd allready been re-born...

They maintained silly WotC-isms when it came to money, lifestyle expenses, etc.

"Coinage
Common coins come in several different denominations based on the relative worth of the metal from which they are made. The three most common coins are the gold piece (gp), the silver piece (sp), and the copper piece (cp).

With one gold piece, a character can buy a quiver, 50 feet of good rope, or a goat. A skilled (but not exceptional) artisan can earn one gold piece a day. The gold piece is the standard unit of measure for wealth, even if the coin itself is not commonly used. When merchants discuss deals that involve goods or services worth hundreds or thousands of gold pieces, the transactions don't usually involve the exchange of individual coins. Rather, the gold piece is a standard of measure of value, and the actual exchange is in gold bars, letters of credit, or valuable goods."
(Basic 5e, July 2014 .pdf, p. 42.)

First, apparently the coinage is only made in the very same metal they are said to represent. This is... disappointing. Why is it so hard to acknowledge it is an abstract measurement for convenience and move on?

Second, a skilled 'daily wage' is 1 GP; which given Modest living is 1 GP, necessitates Poor accommodations to even hope to eat. And reading Poor living standard, it is contradictory:

"Poor: A poor lifestyle means going without the comforts avaiable in a stable community. Simple food and lodgings, threadbare clothing, and unpredictable conditions result in a sufficient, though probably unpleasant, experience. Your accommodations might be a room in a flophouse or in the common room above a tavern. You benefit from some legal protections, but you still have to contend with violence, crime, and disease. People at this lifestyle level tend to be unskilled laborers, costermongers, peddlers, thieves, mercenaries, and other disreputable types."
(Basic 5e, July 2014 .pdf, pg. 52.)

... and there's little elaboration about being employed for room & board & wages. There are hirelings under Services. Skilled get 2 GP/day, while Untrained get 2 SP/day -- and it is those menial laborers where "long-term contracts that includes a place to live... as part of the offered compensation." But that's assumed under high level adventurers and their strongholds.

This should be elaborated on in the DMG, how people don't survive on a daily wage or weekly paycheck as we understand it.

Now for a compliment. It is nowhere as bad as before, IIRC 3e/4e -- so things are improving. The lifestyle:food,drink,lodging prices are roughly akin to * Packs/Kits:Itemized shopping; you spend a bit more money for the abstracted convenience, but not too much. However, I expect a player riot at the table if I ever try to run a silver-based campaign using these everyday maintenance rates.

i.e. Living as a Poor Merc for a month is: 60 SP (6 GP) Lifestyle, or broken down as 30 SP at the Inn and 180 CP for Daily Meals (4.8 GP total). However that risks maintaining your gear and potential violence & disease. Overall a marked improvement for consistency, and similar to how an Explorer's Pack comes with a shade of markup.

Quote from: Opaopajr;784181Second, a skilled 'daily wage' is 1 GP; which given Modest living is 1 GP, necessitates Poor accommodations to even hope to eat. And reading Poor living standard, it is contradictory:

"Poor: A poor lifestyle means going without the comforts avaiable in a stable community. Simple food and lodgings, threadbare clothing, and unpredictable conditions result in a sufficient, though probably unpleasant, experience. Your accommodations might be a room in a flophouse or in the common room above a tavern. You benefit from some legal protections, but you still have to contend with violence, crime, and disease. People at this lifestyle level tend to be unskilled laborers, costermongers, peddlers, thieves, mercenaries, and other disreputable types."
(Basic 5e, July 2014 .pdf, pg. 52.)

... and there's little elaboration about being employed for room & board & wages. There are hirelings under Services. Skilled get 2 GP/day, while Untrained get 2 SP/day -- and it is those menial laborers where "long-term contracts that includes a place to live... as part of the offered compensation." But that's assumed under high level adventurers and their strongholds.

This should be elaborated on in the DMG, how people don't survive on a daily wage or weekly paycheck as we understand it.

I don't think you've read that right.

The "Modest" lifestyle includes everything. The standard skilled worker earning 1gp/day then breaks even by spending 1gp/day on their lifestyle.

They don't need to reduce themselves to a "poor" lifestyle in order to be able to afford food because the cost of food is already included in the "modest" lifestyle that they have.

If you want to break it down further, you can see from the "Food, Drinks & Lodging" chart that the 1gp/day of expenditure for a modest lifestyle consists of 5sp/day for modest lodging and 3sp/day for modest meals; leaving 2sp/day for other things (clothing and so forth). But there's no need to break it down like that, because the whole point of the "lifestyle" cost is to generalise all those costs.

This fits perfectly with the section on coinage, the section on services, and the section on downtime (which says that the average PC can work to support a modest lifestyle between adventures; a PC with organisational connections from their background can work for that organisation to support a comfortable lifestyle; and a PC with performance skills can support a wealthy lifestyle).

The incomes are exactly pegged to the lifestyles in order to mean that you don't need to do any calculations:

Wretched = Beggars = Free
Squalid = Outcasts = 1sp/day expenditure
Poor = Unskilled Labour = 2sp/day income and 2sp/day expenditure
Modest = Skilled Labour = 1gp/day income and 1gp/day expenditure
Comfortable = Professional/Guild Work = 2gp/day income and 2gp/day expenditure
Wealthy = Entertainers = 4gp/day income and 4gp/day expenditure
Aristocratic = Nobles = 10gp+/day expenditure

The only time you need to bother with the actual costs is if a PC should have one lifestyle according to their non-adventuring skills but wishes to live a better lifestyle that they'll pay for with the loot they've gained from adventuring.

It's simple and elegant, and probably the best (or least bad, depending on your point of view) economics section of any D&D edition.

Gold piece a day. Ha!

Silver or a copper a day would be a lot closer to anything realistic.

Might just mean gold is not as rare as in the real world.

Actually, riffing on the economics of the previous posts, what can people afford if they save up?

The book assumes that - with the exception of the truly rich and completely penniless - most people have expenditure that matches their income.

From a poor unskilled worker to a wealthy entertainer, each person's expenditure to maintain their lifestyle matches their income for their work. Barring exceptional circumstances, people neither accumulate savings nor go bankrupt.

So when it comes to big expenditures that aren't part of a normal lifestyle, what can people afford?

Well, I'm going to take a big finger-in-the-air estimate here and say that most people can - should they choose to be a bit frugal but without actually dropping a level of lifestyle - save 10% of their income. That's not to say that everyone will automatically accumulate 10% of their income. Most people will break even as their lifestyle suggests. But people can save 10% of their income if they have a good reason.

So if we allow that assumption, what can people of each lifestyle buy after a year (let's assume a 365 day year here, and that daily expenses and income are averaged figures rather than messing about with festivals and holy days and the like) of putting money under the mattress?

Squalid - 3.65 gp (although someone with a squalid lifestyle isn't eating well anyway so they'd have to be very desperate to be able to undergo the hardship needed to get this money together)
Poor - 7.3gp
Modest - 36.5gp
Comfortable - 73gp
Wealthy - 146gp

That's not bad, given that it's people simply saving their pennies.

But what happens if people are willing to actually drop a level in lifestyle and live at a lower standard than they could normally afford? How much can they save then?

Squalid - Not an option for these people.
Poor - 36.5gp
Modest - 292gp
Comfortable - 365gp
Wealthy - 730 gp

So when we're talking about how much people can afford - for example when looking at how accessible things like raise dead spells are - these are the implications of the book.

For example a 500gp Raise Dead diamond could be paid for in two years by someone with a modest or comfortable lifestyle if they're willing to "downsize", or a single year by someone with a wealthy lifestyle. If they plan ahead and put some money into an "emergency fund" in advance instead, then people with a modest income can have enough in that fund to pay for such a spell in just over a decade without needing to reduce their lifestyle significantly, and richer people can get there in 7 or fewer years.

Quote from: Bill;784196Might just mean gold is not as rare as in the real world.

Given the prices I quoted a few posts ago (e.g. 2gp for a shovel) I think we have to assume that.

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;784159I was talking about the difference between settings in which diamonds are more or less rare, not components altering due to price fluctuations within a setting. In fact we could call that another implied setting element - the fact that everything is given fixed costs implies that prices will be stable and won't fluctuate over the course of a campaign.

Of course, you can easily alter the prices if you want - limiting the life giving spells by saying that in your world diamonds are rare and therefore the costs of those spells are higher (or vice versa by saying that in your world diamonds are plentiful and the costs of those spells are lower). But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the books imply, not how you can easily ignore the implication and house-rule something different.

Similarly, there's nothing to stop you making prices change over a campaign or making them be different in different areas - but again the implication of the fixed price lists and material components by cost is that this won't be the case by default.

Heightening and lowering prices is not the only way to limit access though.

A place with official state religion might grant a monopoly to the priests of said religion, due to their role in resurrection, a matter surely considered to be in the hands of gods.
So you have to make a good argument to the priests, try the black market or plan a temple heist.

In a setting where most diamonds are already in secure hands, the prices might be accurate, but finding someone willing to sell is a challenge.
You would have to find a house of former high nobility that has fallen on hard times and convince the lord or lady to sell a family heirloom, go right to the source and travel to the next diamond mine (which might be far away) or you have to establish connections with a diamond trader, who only sells to those deserving of his wares, requiring the PCs to make a show of their good social standing.

The more I write about this, the more I come to the conclusion that fiddling with the prices is not the way to go. But I think there's a good argument can be made for the purchase of a diamond is a small side adventure in itself.



On the matter of D&D economics, a little sidebar or just a sentence in the equipment chapter saying that prices are averages and might fluctuate would have been helpful. As it stands, your assertion that stable prices are implied is the logical, but mind boggling, conclusion.

Quote from: Gold Roger;784205On the matter of D&D economics, a little sidebar or just a sentence in the equipment chapter saying that prices are averages and might fluctuate would have been helpful. As it stands, your assertion that stable prices are implied is the logical, but mind boggling, conclusion.

Oh, it's downright wacky, but I usually fall back to some wisdom from a favorite TV show, "I should really just relax".

For more food for thought, here's what would happen with the diamond and some of Blacky's conversions if we done something I tend to do, and switch to the "silver standard". Same amounts, just moved one step down on the money ladder.

It's going to be one heck of a move in the conversion to modern currency thanks to the market. Silver trades at $19.45/oz compared to $1287.20/oz for gold:

Recap:
- A D&D coin is 1/3oz (50 coins/lb).
- The mighty Google states that US silver coins are 90% silver.

500sp weighs 160 oz of which 144 oz is actually silver. That would be $2,800.80 in US dollars (£1685.07 in UK pounds).

Now a diamond big enough to raise the dead is closer to half a carat, assuming that it is a perfect, clear white diamond (preferably certified by some dwarf in the know .

Some other items from Blacky's list for comparison:
The $860 backpack is now $11.67 (£7.02).
One day's worth of rations moves from $215 to $2.90 (£1.74).

It's definitely a head scratcher, but I make through the night somehow.

Quote from: JamesV;784237Oh, it's downright wacky, but I usually fall back to some wisdom from a favorite TV show, "I should really just relax".

For more food for thought, here's what would happen with the diamond and some of Blacky's conversions if we done something I tend to do, and switch to the "silver standard". Same amounts, just moved one step down on the money ladder.

It's going to be one heck of a move in the conversion to modern currency thanks to the market. Silver trades at $19.45/oz compared to $1287.20/oz for gold:

Recap:
- A D&D coin is 1/3oz (50 coins/lb).
- The mighty Google states that US silver coins are 90% silver.

500sp weighs 160 oz of which 144 oz is actually silver. That would be $2,800.80 in US dollars (£1685.07 in UK pounds).

Now a diamond big enough to raise the dead is closer to half a carat, assuming that it is a perfect, clear white diamond (preferably certified by some dwarf in the know .

Some other items from Blacky's list for comparison:
The $860 backpack is now $11.67 (£7.02).
One day's worth of rations moves from $215 to $2.90 (£1.74).

It's definitely a head scratcher, but I make through the night somehow.

Yeah, make sure you have a trustworthy expert by your side when buying diamonds and similar components. Lots of fakes and con artists out there.

Quote from: Gold Roger;784205The more I write about this, the more I come to the conclusion that fiddling with the prices is not the way to go. But I think there's a good argument can be made for the purchase of a diamond is a small side adventure in itself.

You're free to put that sort of thing in your campaign if you like, of course. But it's not that's implied in the book and it's not something I'd be interested in doing at all.

Quote from: JamesV;784237It's definitely a head scratcher, but I make through the night somehow.

It's not a head scratcher at all. It's very simple.

In the implied setting, gold and silver coins are based on the value of their metals like the coins were in the real ancient world.

However, the amount of gold and/or silver available in the setting is different to the amount that has historically been available in the real world, and therefore the both the absolute and relative value of the two metals is different to that in the real world.

How different? In the implied setting, the gold in a gold coin is worth the same as the silver in ten silver coins.

And what value is that? It's the value of a day's wage for a skilled worker.

Trying to pin any of those values to the real world values of gold or silver is a fool's errand.

I suddenly have some fun ideas about what happens if you attempt raise dead with a fake diamond...

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;784159I think we have another setting implication here - gold is obviously much more common in the implied setting than in the real world.

Using your values, a single gold piece is worth around $430, and looking at the price list, this gives us:

Backpack = $860
Whip = $860
Bedroll = $430
Blanket = $215
Hunting trap = $2,150
Rations (1 day) = $215
Sledge hammer = $860
Shovel = $860
Quiver = $430
10' pole = $215
Pack of cards = $430
Modest lifestyle = $157,000/year (that's living cost, not income)
Gallon of ale = $83
Modest inn (one night, without food) = $215

I think it's clear that we can't simply use modern values for gold as a guideline for conversion.



I was talking about the difference between settings in which diamonds are more or less rare, not components altering due to price fluctuations within a setting. In fact we could call that another implied setting element - the fact that everything is given fixed costs implies that prices will be stable and won't fluctuate over the course of a campaign.

Of course, you can easily alter the prices if you want - limiting the life giving spells by saying that in your world diamonds are rare and therefore the costs of those spells are higher (or vice versa by saying that in your world diamonds are plentiful and the costs of those spells are lower). But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the books imply, not how you can easily ignore the implication and house-rule something different.

Similarly, there's nothing to stop you making prices change over a campaign or making them be different in different areas - but again the implication of the fixed price lists and material components by cost is that this won't be the case by default.

This is why its tempting to repalce all GP costs with SP costs or swap the equipment list with the US Outdoor price list replacing $ with Silver peice

Let this act of thread necromancy commence!

Now that we have had all the core books for a little while I thought it might be fun to revisit this topic. Last go round people pointed out quite a few things that I hadn't even noticed reading through the PHB. I'm quite sure that will happen this time as well.

Anyway, the DMG gives a nice little handy list of core assumptions that the rules are built around and thus are supposed in the game world.

- Gods oversee the world

- Much of the world is untamed

- The world is ancient

- Conflict shapes the worlds history

- The world is magical

I like these. They are broad enough to be expressed in many different ways, and they tend to drive toward interesting things for players to be doing. Hell one would almost think a default world was built for adventuring.

Now the book goes on to list various ways these could be tinkered with and new assumptions added, but that isn't what I'm interested in here.

As to religions the DMG gives a nice brief overview of how to handle the religious aspect in various ways. Loose Pantheons, Tight Pantheons, Mystery Cults, Monotheism, Animism, Dualism, Forces and Philosophies. We've got it all here. I think the cleric as imagined in 5th edition is versatile enough to support any of these conceptions without any real tinkering as well, which is nice.

There are only a few implied assumptions about religion here. That there is a wider diversity of religion among humanity in most settings and that humanoids tend toward tighter shared religious systems among the whole of a race. Again this is a lighter level of assumption in that it isn't really ingrained in the rules to any degree so I would feel comfortable ignoring this and still having a fairly "default" setting.

Well, that's what I've got for the moment. Any thoughts, things you've noticed that I haven't mentioned yet. Like I said I thought this thread went really well last time and since we have all the core books now why not have another go?

Quote from: Arkansan;824534- Gods oversee the world

- Much of the world is untamed

- The world is ancient

- Conflict shapes the worlds history

- The world is magical

Alot of the assumptions only work if you focus on one of the settings. Problem is, even the DMG bounces around settings a little. Its mostly Forgotten Realms focused. But you have bits of other settings in there too. The MM though is all over the place.

1: Pretty much. Aside from Known World and maybe Greyhawk, most of the settings have relatively active hands on gods to one degree or another.

2: Not so much untamed as it is large. There is often a fair amount of space between settlements. FR at least in its current incarnation comes across as much more populated.

3: FR at least is. But past that its all over the place. Excluding setting specific fluff the DMG is relatively blank on that. Could be old, could be new. But most fantasy settings tend to lean to old. The MM implies truely ancient beings and civilizations.

4: Sounds right. Or more aptly, the rise, fall, and sometimes rise again of civilizations be it through conflict, intrigue, hurbis, or supernatural. But theres near allways "something" going on that is in dire need of being stopped ASAP.

5: Very magical.