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A long time ago I wanted to make a Wild West themed D&D. This week I was stuck on a farm with no internet so I finally put the bare bones together.

Wild West DnD General Rules

* All weapons do d6~ damage but w/ unique properties. Ex: daggers attack 2x, guns cause failed death saves.
* Every PC has 6~ hp.
* No armor, ponchos only.
* No magic.
* Short Rests take 8 hours.
* Long Rests take a week.
* Everyone rides horses.
* Weapons: pistols, rifles, shotguns
* Gold rush: strike it rich
* Gold = experience
* Gun duels also grant experience
* Get shot = 1 failed Death Save
* Long Rest turns failed saves to exhaustion
* Classes include: Lawman, Outlaw, Lone Ranger, Churchman, Frontiersman
* Threats: Injuns, Mexicans, bandits, snakes, hyenas, sandstorms, desert heat, no water

How does it look? Any thoughts?

Too sketchy for me to have an opinion. Are you going for cliché Western?

D&D is a western.  There are just no guns or hats.

Quote from: Dumarest;963513Too sketchy for me to have an opinion. Are you going for cliché Western?

Yeah. Like Clint Eastwood type stuff.

Quote from: Headless;963524D&D is a western.  There are just no guns or hats.

There are hats.  Often have feathers in them, or somewhat conical, but there are hats...

Being serious for a moment, I don't like the idea of weapons only doing a d6.

In Westerns, especially American ones, where the Gun is considered the ultimate weapon, they're often the tools that do the most damage.

That's reflected in causing an instant failed Death Save. Basically any 3 gun shots = instant death, on top of any hit point damage you take.

Is that not enough?

The benefit here is it's all nice and simple.

I think if you're shooting for spaghetti westerns in the Leone style D&D's system will be a rough fit. In that setting people are often killed by one gun shot, not three. That's an influence from the samurai films that Leone was adapting to some degree. D&D's HP system is too much of a damage sponge. The death save is a good idea but then why even have a conventional HP system?

Quote from: Voros;963556I think if you're shooting for spaghetti westerns in the Leone style D&D's system will be a rough fit. In that setting people are often killed by one gun shot, not three. That's an influence from the samurai films that Leone was adapting to some degree. D&D's HP system is too much of a damage sponge. The death save is a good idea but then why even have a conventional HP system?

Agreed.

You may as well turn HP into your Con Score.

You could make gunshots an automatic failed death save (I like this and may photocopy your newsletter for something I'm working on) and then have, say, a short blade (pocket knife) force a death save with advantage, a 'medium melee' (bowie/tomahawk etc) force a death save, and big melee weapons like a cavalry sabre or gunstock club force a check with disadvantage. Maybe dynamite causes automatic failed death saves with the number based on how close you are to the explosion. Or just roll 1d3...

Quote from: Voros;963556I think if you're shooting for spaghetti westerns in the Leone style D&D's system will be a rough fit. In that setting people are often killed by one gun shot, not three. That's an influence from the samurai films that Leone was adapting to some degree. D&D's HP system is too much of a damage sponge. The death save is a good idea but then why even have a conventional HP system?

I figured non-gun weapons could be for hit points, like a knife. Then that gives guns an advantage because they also induce death saves.

Different guns could do different amounts of saves. Like, a shotgun could force 2 failed saves, for instance.

I would just make all enemies 4e style minions that die in 1 hit. The 3 shots would be for PCs, unless you think it's better PCs always die from 1 shot too.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;963561I figured non-gun weapons could be for hit points, like a knife. Then that gives guns an advantage because they also induce death saves.

Different guns could do different amounts of saves. Like, a shotgun could force 2 failed saves, for instance.

I would just make all enemies 4e style minions that die in 1 hit. The 3 shots would be for PCs, unless you think it's better PCs always die from 1 shot too.

Were it my game, PCs would abide by the same rules and one shot could do it. It gives the players good reason to be cautious about starting a gunfight. But if you want superhero Western heroes who can shoot up the whole town with minimal risk to themselves, I'd go the other way.

Quote from: Voros;963556I think if you're shooting for spaghetti westerns in the Leone style D&D's system will be a rough fit. In that setting people are often killed by one gun shot, not three. That's an influence from the samurai films that Leone was adapting to some degree. D&D's HP system is too much of a damage sponge. The death save is a good idea but then why even have a conventional HP system?

D&D is terrible at the one on one showdown, but it works perfectly everywhere else. Just take the abstract nature of HP to its extreme. The heroes in westerns usually manage to somehow survive protracted shootouts without taking a scratch. Assume most damage is a loss of morale or confidence, or being put at a disadvantage by suppressing fire, or just a grazing hit if it's a decent amount of damage. Use western cinema tropes, like getting your hat shot off, or getting taken out but surviving because it got deflected by . Death saves are just your luck running out.

Honestly hit points don't work for lances or battleaxes either.  A critical hit with a great axe that does 20+ damage is ofter narrated axe "the orc swings with his axe striking deep into your thigh." That doesn't make since if you still have 30 hitpoints left or so. If you take any axe into your thigh your are down.  That should be narrated closer to "The Orc swings a massive blow with his axe that you barely manage go block in time, your shield is smashed against your body, knocking the wind out of you and numbing your arm."

Any way.  Tose HP all together.  An if you need them for a bar brawl con=hp.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;963561I would just make all enemies 4e style minions that die in 1 hit. The 3 shots would be for PCs, unless you think it's better PCs always die from 1 shot too.

Good idea. Except I guess for boss villains.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963533In Westerns, especially American ones, where the Gun is considered the ultimate weapon, they're often the tools that do the most damage.

Depends on the western. In some it takes a few shots to off someone. And in some death isnt instant and they may linger long enough to shoot back or try to. Or even linger days.

Dont base your RPG on movie physics.

I'd go with a system like the original Albedo's where its a factor of accuracy and where you got hit, plus the caliber of the shot. Without Albedo's modern body armour to mitigate it this makes gun battles really deadly. Especially if using a standard Colt. I looked up the factors for that very purpose.

I did a quick run with my diplomat character vs a gunslinger and it wasn't pretty. Diplomat was untrained but faster. We end up firing on the same phase and against all odds the diplomat scores a head hit AND a catastrophic one at that so a goodly portion of the gunslingers brains go for a walk. Meanwhile the diplomat takes it to the chest and takes a massive wound+knocked out. So the diplomat is laying there bleeding out fast and will be shuffling off the mortal coil in about 6 rounds (half a minute) if someone doesn't do something ASAP. (seems a bit fast? But I'll assume it was something really important got perforated. And why does my poor diplomat keep getting blasted in the chest??? :()

Something like this might be fun to hack from Adventures in Middle Earth, or at least the classes.

Quote from: Omega;963622Depends on the western. In some it takes a few shots to off someone. And in some death isnt instant and they may linger long enough to shoot back or try to. Or even linger days.

Dont base your RPG on movie physics.

I was going to for what's playable compared to what is believed.  Also, trying to be 'realistic' with D&D as a system?  Let's not bring that up again.

Quote from: Omega;963622I'd go with a system like the original Albedo's where its a factor of accuracy and where you got hit, plus the caliber of the shot. Without Albedo's modern body armour to mitigate it this makes gun battles really deadly. Especially if using a standard Colt. I looked up the factors for that very purpose.

I did a quick run with my diplomat character vs a gunslinger and it wasn't pretty. Diplomat was untrained but faster. We end up firing on the same phase and against all odds the diplomat scores a head hit AND a catastrophic one at that so a goodly portion of the gunslingers brains go for a walk. Meanwhile the diplomat takes it to the chest and takes a massive wound+knocked out. So the diplomat is laying there bleeding out fast and will be shuffling off the mortal coil in about 6 rounds (half a minute) if someone doesn't do something ASAP. (seems a bit fast? But I'll assume it was something really important got perforated. And why does my poor diplomat keep getting blasted in the chest??? :()

Here's an honest question, as I've never played the system, what makes a charismatic character faster than a dexterous.

Shot Clock or GTFO.

Shot Clock?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;963877Shot Clock?

From Aces & Eights, a cumbersome Western RPG set in an alternate history. Pundit is playing it and posts about it on his blog, though it would be more interesting if he discussed the rules as well as the sessions.

Here is a question. How best to distinguish gun types depending on damage and ranges? The rifle seems useless unless you fire from a cliff or something.

Not even remotely a gun expert and this is based on reality but apparently hitting someone with a handgun is pretty difficult. A rifle is much more accurate.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;963725Here's an honest question, as I've never played the system, what makes a charismatic character faster than a dexterous.

There wasnt?

The diplomat was faster (COORD 13), but with bare basics gun training 5. While the gunman was slower(COORD 8), but far better trained with a topped out skill 15. I spent a phase aiming to bump my target number from a 6 to a 8. While the gunslinger was snap firing, reducing his 11 to a 9. If the diplomat had needed to fire on the first phase instead of being able to wait and fire on the second, (thus improving aim,) it would have been a 4 instead. To hits are a 2d6 roll + mods. Roll =/-.

Thee system is such that stats can drag down or boost up your skills. 8 MDEX reduced my gun skill from a 5 to a 4. And a 11 MDEX for the gunslinger bumped his 15 to a 16.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;963897Here is a question. How best to distinguish gun types depending on damage and ranges? The rifle seems useless unless you fire from a cliff or something.

For what system? In 5e D&D a rifle will likely do more damage and hit out to a longer range. But will probably be heavier. May or may not have more ammo too depending on the type.

Quote from: Dumarest;963890From Aces & Eights, a cumbersome Western RPG set in an alternate history. Pundit is playing it and posts about it on his blog, though it would be more interesting if he discussed the rules as well as the sessions.

Well, the rules are straight up Aces & Eights.  I did a review of that here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?17826-RPGPundit-Reviews-Aces-amp-Eights).

And the shot-clock is an awesome mechanic. I think that even if I wasn't running Aces and Eights as such, I'd incorporate it somehow into any other western-themed game (and maybe others where the precision location of injury might be important).

Quote from: RPGPundit;964429Well, the rules are straight up Aces & Eights.  I did a review of that here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?17826-RPGPundit-Reviews-Aces-amp-Eights).

And the shot-clock is an awesome mechanic. I think that even if I wasn't running Aces and Eights as such, I'd incorporate it somehow into any other western-themed game (and maybe others where the precision location of injury might be important).

The shot clock is awesome, but I doubt I'll ever care enough to use it. Thanks for the link to the review.

Well, in a Wild West or other gunfight-heavy game, it totally changes the whole feeling, in a great way.

Isnt that the general idea?

Idea:

Guns cause Con Saves, on a fail, drops player to 0HP.  Because bullets don't do a lot of physical damage, what gets you is hydro-static shock...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;970290Idea:

Guns cause Con Saves, on a fail, drops player to 0HP.  Because bullets don't do a lot of physical damage, what gets you is hydro-static shock...

A few medics have noted that theres still debate as to wether hydrostatic shock is as big a factor as some make it to be. Tissue are fairly elastic they noted. Sometimes it boiled down to willpower.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;970290Idea:

Guns cause Con Saves, on a fail, drops player to 0HP.  Because bullets don't do a lot of physical damage, what gets you is hydro-static shock...

In d20 Star Wars, instead of Hit Points you had Health and Stamina. Health was basically your Constitution Score and Stamina was your hit points. So regular hits did damage to Stamina, which could heal overnight kind of like 5e hit points. Critical hits did damage directly to health. If your Con is 12 or less and you get hit by a heavy blaster, odds are you are dead. Nobody laughed at my Stormtroopers. :D

You could probably adapt that mechanic to 5e, which is kind of similar to what you are suggesting. Another thing, short and long rests could be kept as they are, but made to apply to Stamina only. I'd have to look up the rules to see how normal healing for Health works but it would probably be something like 1 point a day, with maybe more when First Aid is initially applied as well as subsequent medical care. In a Wild West setting, I think much of the health care system comprised of whiskey, tourniquets and hacksaws. Though a competent nurse might help with recovery by giving painkillers and cleaning and dressing wounds.

I just found this article called Frontier 5e (http://www.tribality.com/2017/06/14/frontier-5e-campaign-setting-overview-part-1/). The article is only a week old and may be relevant.

Yeah, I don't buy that hydro-static shock thing.

There's definitely some kind of effect going on with small caliber, high-velocity bullets and temporary and permanent cavities, etc, but basically the types of shock that will kill you from a gunshot wound are
Cardiogenic Shock - caused by damage to the heart and/or heart and lungs.
Hypovolemic Shock - loss of blood volume ie. bleeding out.
Neurogenic Shock - caused by destruction of the central nervous system.

You basically need to immediately induce Cardiogenic or Neurogenic Shock for an instant kill. (Unless you want to fill them full of .22 short and wait until they die of Septic Shock or poison them with peanuts to induce Anaphylactic Shock :D)) That's why the old Mozambique Drill is so effective.  Two in the chest, one in the head.  The idea is that a double tap to the heart is extremely likely to induce Immediate Cardiogenic Shock.  However, due to everyone being different, it is possible to blow someone's heart out their back, and they will not suffer Cardiogenic Shock due to the effects of adrenaline, drugs, etc.  They will live for a few seconds until they die of Hypovolemic Shock, and those seconds are enough for them to kill you, which is why you follow up with the headshot, which is hard to make and can deflect, but at this point the only way to get an immediate stop is a Neurogenic Shock kill.

Getting hit in the hand and the super-high velocity fluid wave rupturing the brain and heart is a Myth, however, they have found that pigs shot with high velocity rifle rounds in the extremities at close range do show some small level of brain damage, but not enough to be deadly or possibly even noticeable.

A "Hydrostatic Shock" kill most likely is damage to a major nerve that disrupts the nervous system causing temporary disorientation similar to a Solar Plexus hit or Brachial Stun combined with damage to a major artery causing death or unconsciousness by Hypovolemic Shock before the person has recovered from the stun.

Once upon a time I was pre-med running Shadowrun and Cyberpunk 2020.  So sue me. :p

Quote from: CRKrueger;971258A "Hydrostatic Shock" kill most likely is damage to a major nerve that disrupts the nervous system causing temporary disorientation similar to a Solar Plexus hit or Brachial Stun combined with damage to a major artery causing death or unconsciousness by Hypovolemic Shock before the person has recovered from the stun.

Fun fact, you can lose half your blood and not experience hypovolemic shock if the blood loss is slow enough. And when you keep showing up at work, your coworkers have very amusing expressions.

As for Hydrostatic Shock, that sounds very much like how fitness blogger Rebecca Burger died, when a pressurized whipped cream canister exploded, launching a piece into her chest which caused cardiac arrest.

Quote from: CRKrueger;971258A "Hydrostatic Shock" kill most likely is damage to a major nerve that disrupts the nervous system causing temporary disorientation similar to a Solar Plexus hit or Brachial Stun combined with damage to a major artery causing death or unconsciousness by Hypovolemic Shock before the person has recovered from the stun.

Sounds more credible.