Quote from: Black Vulmea;973436other fief-holdings are often dispersed to avoid concentrating power, in my experience lines aren't as effective as color-coding features on the map based on suzerainty.

Already plead guilty to this and tried to do this. The problem I find that it is one step beyond "I don't give a fuck about this" for the players. So what I do as a compromise is that the fief holding are concentrated which something most players get. But a settlement in each is held directly by the sovereign powers and acts as a check. Which is also something players get.

So in the map I linked too. It was part of this article about feudal domains. Attached to the article was this spreadsheet. In it you can see how I broke down who owned what.

Now the writeup was a thrown together for a blog post. Looking it over I would not have the Counts of Withersport, Ullan, Yevarn have vassal barons right next to their core domain. I would probably go like this.

Prince of Medris
    Medris (bailiff)
    Axenred (bailiff)
    Sodan Watch (Sheriff of the West)
    Arrow Watch (Sheriff of the East)
    Tavon (Baron of Tavon)
  Count of Yevarn
    Halie Port (Bailiff)
    Lodran (Baron of Lodran)
    Pendris (Baron of Pendris)
  Count of Ullan
    Cadris (Baron of Cadris)
  Count of Withersport
    Amaris (Baron of Amaris)
    Bald Point (Bailiff)




Quote from: Black Vulmea;973436First, the boundaries rarely conform to natural features, which is a big no-no for me,

Sure they do, it just the Judges Guild style mapping symbols, scale and setup doesn't make it clear.

Sodan Watch, Ullan, Amaris, Medris, Lodran are basically defined by being side by side on the western coast and terminating at the ridge line formed by the mountains to the southwest and the line of hills extending to the northwest. Now Ullan, Amaris, and Medris, extend beyond the ridge line to touch the Loris River because Pendris is a newer region established on the south bank of the Loris. The five regions are each centered around a river valley with their boundaries established at the ridge marking the watershed. Sodan Watch, and Lodran rivers are more creeks and don't show up on the map. Ullan spans two valleys, one with a creek not marked and the other with a river.

Lodran and Bald Point split the northern peninsula between them with the border running on the ridge line.

The boundary between Bald Point and Yevarn runs through the Sorrel Woods where the watershed of the Loris River begins.

Tavon is older than Pendris so it western boundary is where it was before Pendris was estabilshed. Like wise Yevarn is older than Tavon. When Tavon was estabilshed anything beyond four miles was given to the Barony and along with the newer settlements.

Arrow Watch has the tip of the Arrowknife pennisula to a ridgeline just to the east of Cadris. Could have draw that a bit better. Cadris occupies the base of the peninsula. The border with Yevarn is a bit arbitrary and depending on how I did the subinfeudation could be a cause for conflict as Yevarn should extend along that north coast of the base.

Like the western coast, Withersport, Axenred, and Halie Port all run along the coast occupying different river valleys. However their western border ends with the Westguard at a magical boundary established by the elves.

Boundaries are function of history and geography. For myself I been drawing maps of various sorts since I was in 6th grade circa 1976-1977 and read geography books for fun. So I internalized a lot of these rules. For me I am telling a story of how a region developed when I draw map which is why I can go in depth about a map where I very little text written.

For something more detailed I invite you to look at this.

For a better example is this. My Nomar map which show boundaries with transparent fills. I attached the two page write up that I handed my players.

Some other sample maps

Or this one.

The Karian Islands

Viridstan Region

Viridstan Zoomed In

So, something I'm getting from this is that NW European manorialism isn't a good fit for most fantasy settings. The manor has a thorpe of at most 100 people, which is too small to defend itself against raiders. Instead we should be looking more to southern Europe (or the Scottish borders) with defensible villages & small farms? But even a fortified borderer farmstead isn't defensible vs concerted attack.

IME the typical fantasy setting setup has a single village with surrounding farmland. In my own games frontier villages always have a wooden palisade, enough to keep the goblins out. Lots of published fantasy villages are completely undefended, which seems silly, but having everyone concentrated together makes sense.

What's the practical limit for how far you can farm from a village and return at night? What's a good rule of thumb for farmland needed to support a population - looking at medieval France I get the impression you can support around 200 per square mile of wheat farmland?

One issue I have for my main Wilderlands Ghinarian Hills campaign is that the fortified Ghinarian villages are mostly sheep farmers, which means the flocks can be returned within the palisade at night - this is nice and secure, but also means you need a lot of sheep pens, and flocks have to be take out through the gates every morning, which sets a limit on how far the village can grow. And sheep farming won't be as productive as wheat. I'm wondering about the practicalities of how big my villages can get.

Quote from: S'mon;973476So, something I'm getting from this is that NW European manorialism isn't a good fit for most fantasy settings. The manor has a thorpe of at most 100 people, which is too small to defend itself against raiders. Instead we should be looking more to southern Europe (or the Scottish borders) with defensible villages & small farms? But even a fortified borderer farmstead isn't defensible vs concerted attack.

IME the typical fantasy setting setup has a single village with surrounding farmland. In my own games frontier villages always have a wooden palisade, enough to keep the goblins out. Lots of published fantasy villages are completely undefended, which seems silly, but having everyone concentrated together makes sense.

What's the practical limit for how far you can farm from a village and return at night? What's a good rule of thumb for farmland needed to support a population - looking at medieval France I get the impression you can support around 200 per square mile of wheat farmland?

One issue I have for my main Wilderlands Ghinarian Hills campaign is that the fortified Ghinarian villages are mostly sheep farmers, which means the flocks can be returned within the palisade at night - this is nice and secure, but also means you need a lot of sheep pens, and flocks have to be take out through the gates every morning, which sets a limit on how far the village can grow. And sheep farming won't be as productive as wheat. I'm wondering about the practicalities of how big my villages can get.

I think you could kind of combine the centralized and farm systems so that it's not "return at night" but "can evacuate to if warned of danger".  So farmers might not live in the town, but the town/castle could hold them for defense/protection if needed.

For an area subject to raiding you'd need patrols, watchtowers, signal fires, etc to keep the watch and there's a limit to how fast you could bring everyone inside, but it would extend the area quite a bit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;973509I think you could kind of combine the centralized and farm systems so that it's not "return at night" but "can evacuate to if warned of danger".  So farmers might not live in the town, but the town/castle could hold them for defense/protection if needed.

For an area subject to raiding you'd need patrols, watchtowers, signal fires, etc to keep the watch and there's a limit to how fast you could bring everyone inside, but it would extend the area quite a bit.

(Agree about the farms, but they do seem vulnerable to surprise raids despite defences - I've seen some interesting things about how Scots Border farms were defended.)

For my Ghinarian Hills setting I think it's ok for dealing with defence when warned. The first line by day is really the shepherds/shepherdesses out in the meadows, who routinely carry slings & are usually good shots, plus their very large Ghinarian Shephounds (Wilderlands is a Badass Planet)
The stockaded villages each have a Lord, usually a noble warrior, and his Warband, a small group of professional armoured warriors. So taking one of these villages really needs a small army.

I'm wondering what's the maximum population I could credibly have with this setup - I tend to note the villages as 200-400 sort of size, but I wonder how big they could get, and what sort of population density.

Just as a note, pastoralism is also a form of economic organization and leads to a different settlement pattern.

So, I think a lot depends on how you interpret Zingaran society.  

The way I see it, Kordava, perhaps rivaled by Mesantia in Argos, is probably the most important trade center on the western coast of the the Thurian continent bringing exotic goods to the Hyborian nations from Shem, Stygia, the Black Kingdoms, Vendhya and beyond.  Maritime trade is a major economic force in Zingara, enough so that the monied economy is probably significantly eroding feudal structure and manorial land based economy of the small nation. Whatever decisions you make, it is likely that the feudal economy is somewhat upside down with such fortunes to be made on the high seas or the road east.  People may be abandoning their farms to seek fortune in the overcrowded cities, on the decks of ships, as caravan guards, etc.  One of the things that kept feudal society so stable was a lack specie and capitol.  As in historical Spain, the influx of wealth would tear traditional feudal society up by the roots.  I'm not saying you shouldn't go with a feudal society, but it is probably a a feudal society in crisis with all of that money floating around.  Landlords probably have a hard time keeping tenants or getting all of their fields plowed.  Labor would have some leverage. Peasants who are mistreated can probably find a neighboring lord willing to offer better conditions.  As a consequence, food and agricultural prices are likely very high, especially if civil war disrupts the harvests. There may be famine or bread riots in Kordava.

It is also not too clear how strong the church of Mitra might be in REHs Zingara, and I think that is another important choice.  From K.E. Wagner's apocryphal pastiche, Zingarans were more concerned about money than religion and there were some Shemetish gods (Ishtar, Bel) being worshiped - a far cry from the Catholic zealotry of 15th/16th century Spain.  If you go with a strong church, it is probably under as much strain form the changing socioeconomic forces as it is from the war.  It may be applying its iron cultural fist to servile backsides in service of the social order and traditional values.  Just food for thought.

Whatever the case, the northern reaches of Zingara along the Pictish frontier likely have a population density designed for maximum defense from raids rather than for maximum production.  There are likely lots of small forts and castles and lots of mutually supportive (and intermarried) small nobles.  The people are likely stoic and practical and not as upset by war - their used to it.  In hills of the south, along the Argosian border, there are likely a few great castles designed for major military campaigns against their main rivals, and there are probably great lords who rule them who are deeply involved in the political strife.  The fertile Zingg and Thunder river valleys are probably where much of the strife is occurring.  The land is likely chopped up into tiny fiefs that are not all that well defended (for sure a castle here and there), perfect land for the for the most common and brutal form of medieval warfare, the chevauchee'.  Along the Eastern frontier, the people are more pastoral (I'm making shit up now) and more influenced by the high chivalric culture of Poitain.  As in the Pyrenees you might have large, powerful landholders with a weak grasp on their fierce semi-nomadic population.  Aquilonian lords are heavily invested in keeping trade open and preventing war from spilling across the boarder, other Aquilonian lords may see opportunity in the chaos.  And of course there is the cosmopolitan capital, center of wealth, culture, opportunity, riots, intrigue, factions, etc.

All of this is just food for thought and general blather on two of my favorite subjects - medieval society and the Hyborian Age.

So let me ask this. If one has a published setting, something less than the detail of Harn, in which there may be a national border or some regional borders, and the major towns and sites, how do you go about creating further detail?  Do you create it from whole cloth, or let dice do some work for you or some mix?

Great question.  For me, it's whole cloth.  I don't know of any random tables that would help you do this.  There are a lot of factors involved, but then it is not to hard to look at a map and say "here are the borders, cultures, population centers, trade, physical geography, fertility, goods etc. - now, how would this develop?" As I mentioned before, you also need to ask "what do I need for my game to work?" Between those two questions and a notebook, you ought to be set.

Quote from: Madprofessor;973549So, I think a lot depends on how you interpret Zingaran society.  

The way I see it, Kordava, perhaps rivaled by Mesantia in Argos, is probably the most important trade center on the western coast of the the Thurian continent bringing exotic goods to the Hyborian nations from Shem, Stygia, the Black Kingdoms, Vendhya and beyond.  Maritime trade is a major economic force in Zingara, enough so that the monied economy is probably significantly eroding feudal structure and manorial land based economy of the small nation. Whatever decisions you make, it is likely that the feudal economy is somewhat upside down with such fortunes to be made on the high seas or the road east.  People may be abandoning their farms to seek fortune in the overcrowded cities, on the decks of ships, as caravan guards, etc.  One of the things that kept feudal society so stable was a lack specie and capitol.  As in historical Spain, the influx of wealth would tear traditional feudal society up by the roots.  I'm not saying you shouldn't go with a feudal society, but it is probably a a feudal society in crisis with all of that money floating around.  Landlords probably have a hard time keeping tenants or getting all of their fields plowed.  Labor would have some leverage. Peasants who are mistreated can probably find a neighboring lord willing to offer better conditions.  As a consequence, food and agricultural prices are likely very high, especially if civil war disrupts the harvests. There may be famine or bread riots in Kordava.

It is also not too clear how strong the church of Mitra might be in REHs Zingara, and I think that is another important choice.  From K.E. Wagner's apocryphal pastiche, Zingarans were more concerned about money than religion and there were some Shemetish gods (Ishtar, Bel) being worshiped - a far cry from the Catholic zealotry of 15th/16th century Spain.  If you go with a strong church, it is probably under as much strain form the changing socioeconomic forces as it is from the war.  It may be applying its iron cultural fist to servile backsides in service of the social order and traditional values.  Just food for thought.

Whatever the case, the northern reaches of Zingara along the Pictish frontier likely have a population density designed for maximum defense from raids rather than for maximum production.  There are likely lots of small forts and castles and lots of mutually supportive (and intermarried) small nobles.  The people are likely stoic and practical and not as upset by war - their used to it.  In hills of the south, along the Argosian border, there are likely a few great castles designed for major military campaigns against their main rivals, and there are probably great lords who rule them who are deeply involved in the political strife.  The fertile Zingg and Thunder river valleys are probably where much of the strife is occurring.  The land is likely chopped up into tiny fiefs that are not all that well defended (for sure a castle here and there), perfect land for the for the most common and brutal form of medieval warfare, the chevauchee'.  Along the Eastern frontier, the people are more pastoral (I'm making shit up now) and more influenced by the high chivalric culture of Poitain.  As in the Pyrenees you might have large, powerful landholders with a weak grasp on their fierce semi-nomadic population.  Aquilonian lords are heavily invested in keeping trade open and preventing war from spilling across the boarder, other Aquilonian lords may see opportunity in the chaos.  And of course there is the cosmopolitan capital, center of wealth, culture, opportunity, riots, intrigue, factions, etc.

All of this is just food for thought and general blather on two of my favorite subjects - medieval society and the Hyborian Age.

It's currently "recovering" from a disastrous Civil War (not the same as out of pastiche, but I didn't see a reason Zingara couldn't have collapsed into Civil War ).  There's a King crowned in Kordava, but doesn't have support of all the nobles.  The country is a glorious mess, with the coastal maritime cities mercantile classes growing stronger, the frontier march lords expanding territory while no one's looking, the central noble families settling centuries old rivalries and vendettas.  Many villages, towns, keeps lie in ruins, bandits, mercenaries, ghouls, etc roam the lands, huge refugee crisis in the coastal cities, the Church of Mitra seeking to expand it's power base and lands.  It's a glorious hell of a mess.

As the characters are starting to dip their toes into these waters, I want to get a better handle in my mind about what everything looked like before it all went to hell so I can better figure out what pieces are left on the board.