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A sort of mini-review I guess?

A few days ago WOTC posted up their revision of the Artificer class path from the UA Eberron PDF.

From their survey feedback they decided that instead of being a path for Wizards. The Artificer will now be its own class.

That is right. After a decade or two of bitching about too many classes... now people demanded for more classes...

Looking over the Artificer as it now stands I can see that somewhat it does make sense to cull it off into its own thing. Though personally I think it would have worked fine as a path for the Sorcerer considering the artificers abilities as presented.

So whats it got?
a d8 for HD: Considering the classes power personally I'd have dropped that to a d6.
Light and medium armour: Not sure on the medium. But from some perspectives it kinda fits.
Simple weapons: Least they got that right.
Tool proficiency: Thieves tools and 2 others
Skills - 3 - Sleight of Hand, Arcana, History, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Religion, or Deception: Deception seems out of place? Id replace that with Insight.
Saves: CON & INT

They get access to lesser spells similar to the Paladin and Ranger do. But not till level 3. No cantrips. They start off knowing 3 spells, and gain another at levels 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 19 and 20.
At 1st level they can cast Identify and Detect magic as rituals.
2nd level they get 2x their prof bonus when using tool skills.
From 2nd level on they finish work on a magic item project. A bag of holding, cap of water breathing, driftglobe, goggles of night, or sending stones. And finish another at 5, 10, 15 and 20, with the selection expanding at each tier. They are allmost all personal items and from the common and uncommon ranges overall so not anything game breaking.
At 4th level they can charge an item with a spell they know that has a cast time of 1 action. The item only holds the spell up to 8 hours. But anyone with an INT of at least 6 can use it. Number can charge is limited to the Artificers INT mod. Sort of like a quick create scroll ability. Or making a simple one shot charm.
At 5th level they can now attune 4 magic items instead of the normal 3. At 15th level this bumps up to 5 and up to 6 at level 20. This is the first class to be able to exceed the attunement limit. I can see this being popular with players who love to acquire lots of magic items.
At 6th level they finish construction of a mechanical servant. Choose a Large Bast of CR 2 or less and your robot buddy has all its stats. But you can make it look like anything you want as long as it fits the abilities of the beast patterned on. Works like most constructs but cant be "healed" unless its been "killed". The Artificer tinkering with it during a long rest to revive it if they salvaged the body. Otherwise they have to rebuild it. It acts on its own like some pets, but can be given orders by using a reaction if you are attacked and its within 5ft of the attacker. This has all sorts of potential and considering that the Large Beast category covers things like Giant Eagles and Giant Spiders you have yourself an aircraft, a mechanical boat, or an wall crawling ATV to ride.

There are two paths for this class. The Alchemist and the Gunsmith.

The Alchemist is all about flinging magic concoctions at people. They start knowing 1 formula and can pick up 4 more. They have a magic satchel they can pluck out of exactly the formula vial they need. Formulas include.
Alchemichal Fire: Essentially a small grenade doing 1d6 to anyone in a 5ft radius of the blast. Every few levels this increases a die. 7d6 at level 19. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Alchemichal Acid: much the same, but tops out at 10d6. But effects only 1 target. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Healing Draught: Which heals 1d8 damage and can be used by others. It tops out at 10d8. But someone can only benefit from one per long rest. The vial can be held up to 1 hour and the Alchemist cant make another untill it is used or vanishes at the end of the duration.
Smoke Stick: about equivalent to a 10ft radius darkness spell. Blocks vision and darkvision. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Swift Step: Boosts movement by 20ft. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Tanglefoot: A 5ft radius glue trap when tossed. Makes the space difficult terrain to cross and halves speed of anyone ending their turn in the stuff. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Thunderstone: CON save for everyone within 10ft of the impact or be knocked prone and pushed 10ft away from that point.

The Gunsmith as one might guess, makes a techno-magic rifle. They start off with proficiency in Smiths Tools and know the Mending cantrip. But more importantly they have a weapon called the Thundercannon. This is something between a musket and a rail gun as it throws a lead bullet at ranges of 150/500 and does 2d6 piercing damage. Bonus action to reload. Its reloaded from an Arcane Magazine which holds the stuff needed to make each shell. The Gunsmith during a long rest can craft 40 rounds, and 10 more on a short rest.
At level 3 you turn the thing into a magical rail gun to increase the damage output. This increases as you gain level tiers and tops out at 9d6 extra damage.
At level 9 the gun can blast a 15ft cone of concussive force instead, doing some damage and pushing targets away if they fail a save. Damage tops at 4d6.
At 14th level you turn the thing into a proton pack or AT rifle. Can fire a bolt of lightning that zaps everything in the 30ft path. 4d6 damage on a failed save, bumped up to 6d6 at level 19.
At level 19 you add effectively a rocket launcher round to the thing. At point of impact a 3ft radius explosion doing 4d8 fire damage on a failed save.

Overall I like the Gunsmith class a-lot as its got some fun potential and amazingly enough is not too overpowered as its just one shot per round and several of the effects fail totally if the save is made. I think the Artificer is an interesting approach. I am playtesting this now to see how it works in the field as it were and so far been a-lot of fun. It does not seem to overshadow the fighter so far. But I am a little concerned with the Alchemist and their potential damage output. But like the Gunsmith the Fire and Acid effects are totally negated if saved vs.

Anyone else had a look at this? Opinions?

This sounds awesome! Thank you for posting this. Is there anything on the rest of the Eberron stuff (warforged, shifters, Dragonmarks, etc)?

Nevermind. I found it. Some cool stuff at first glance.

Yeah, i really like it. I don't think it could really be tagged on as a path to another class. Not sure why they get medium armour or the d8 hit die though. Would have to see in play whether that or d6 and light armour works best.

Medium armour fits at least thematically for a craftsman themed class to make. But no so sure on wearing. I think its handy for the relatively short ranged Alchemist, but the long range Gunsmith not so much?

One concern in retrospect is the Gunsmiths ability to craft shells. Whats to stop them from saying "I spend a day using short rests to make a total of 200 shells a day. (160+40). The other is that they effectively get late in the game an at-will Lightning bolt and fireball.

Quote from: Omega;941003That is right. After a decade or two of bitching about too many classes... now people demanded for more classes...

That's because (And this is a perception, but one I think is fundamental in nature, to the point that very few people seem to realize it) no one understands that Classes are supposed to be BROAD archetypes, instead we get a bunch of minipackages trying to cover EVERY SINGLE character idea in the ENTIRE universe.

Why?  Because everyone wants to be a speshul snofluk.

Looking over the Artificer

Quote from: Omega;941003as it now stands I can see that somewhat it does make sense to cull it off into its own thing. Though personally I think it would have worked fine as a path for the Sorcerer considering the artificers abilities as presented.

So whats it got?
a d8 for HD: Considering the classes power personally I'd have dropped that to a d6.
Light and medium armour: Not sure on the medium. But from some perspectives it kinda fits.
Simple weapons: Least they got that right.
Tool proficiency: Thieves tools and 2 others
Skills - 3 - Sleight of Hand, Arcana, History, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Religion, or Deception: Deception seems out of place? Id replace that with Insight.
Saves: CON & INT

They get access to lesser spells similar to the Paladin and Ranger do. But not till level 3. No cantrips. They start off knowing 3 spells, and gain another at levels 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 19 and 20.
At 1st level they can cast Identify and Detect magic as rituals.
2nd level they get 2x their prof bonus when using tool skills.
From 2nd level on they finish work on a magic item project. A bag of holding, cap of water breathing, driftglobe, goggles of night, or sending stones. And finish another at 5, 10, 15 and 20, with the selection expanding at each tier. They are allmost all personal items and from the common and uncommon ranges overall so not anything game breaking.
At 4th level they can charge an item with a spell they know that has a cast time of 1 action. The item only holds the spell up to 8 hours. But anyone with an INT of at least 6 can use it. Number can charge is limited to the Artificers INT mod. Sort of like a quick create scroll ability. Or making a simple one shot charm.
At 5th level they can now attune 4 magic items instead of the normal 3. At 15th level this bumps up to 5 and up to 6 at level 20. This is the first class to be able to exceed the attunement limit. I can see this being popular with players who love to acquire lots of magic items.
At 6th level they finish construction of a mechanical servant. Choose a Large Bast of CR 2 or less and your robot buddy has all its stats. But you can make it look like anything you want as long as it fits the abilities of the beast patterned on. Works like most constructs but cant be "healed" unless its been "killed". The Artificer tinkering with it during a long rest to revive it if they salvaged the body. Otherwise they have to rebuild it. It acts on its own like some pets, but can be given orders by using a reaction if you are attacked and its within 5ft of the attacker. This has all sorts of potential and considering that the Large Beast category covers things like Giant Eagles and Giant Spiders you have yourself an aircraft, a mechanical boat, or an wall crawling ATV to ride.

There are two paths for this class. The Alchemist and the Gunsmith.

The Alchemist is all about flinging magic concoctions at people. They start knowing 1 formula and can pick up 4 more. They have a magic satchel they can pluck out of exactly the formula vial they need. Formulas include.
Alchemichal Fire: Essentially a small grenade doing 1d6 to anyone in a 5ft radius of the blast. Every few levels this increases a die. 7d6 at level 19. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Alchemichal Acid: much the same, but tops out at 10d6. But effects only 1 target. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Healing Draught: Which heals 1d8 damage and can be used by others. It tops out at 10d8. But someone can only benefit from one per long rest. The vial can be held up to 1 hour and the Alchemist cant make another untill it is used or vanishes at the end of the duration.
Smoke Stick: about equivalent to a 10ft radius darkness spell. Blocks vision and darkvision. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Swift Step: Boosts movement by 20ft. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Tanglefoot: A 5ft radius glue trap when tossed. Makes the space difficult terrain to cross and halves speed of anyone ending their turn in the stuff. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Thunderstone: CON save for everyone within 10ft of the impact or be knocked prone and pushed 10ft away from that point.

The Gunsmith as one might guess, makes a techno-magic rifle. They start off with proficiency in Smiths Tools and know the Mending cantrip. But more importantly they have a weapon called the Thundercannon. This is something between a musket and a rail gun as it throws a lead bullet at ranges of 150/500 and does 2d6 piercing damage. Bonus action to reload. Its reloaded from an Arcane Magazine which holds the stuff needed to make each shell. The Gunsmith during a long rest can craft 40 rounds, and 10 more on a short rest.
At level 3 you turn the thing into a magical rail gun to increase the damage output. This increases as you gain level tiers and tops out at 9d6 extra damage.
At level 9 the gun can blast a 15ft cone of concussive force instead, doing some damage and pushing targets away if they fail a save. Damage tops at 4d6.
At 14th level you turn the thing into a proton pack or AT rifle. Can fire a bolt of lightning that zaps everything in the 30ft path. 4d6 damage on a failed save, bumped up to 6d6 at level 19.
At level 19 you add effectively a rocket launcher round to the thing. At point of impact a 3ft radius explosion doing 4d8 fire damage on a failed save.

Overall I like the Gunsmith class a-lot as its got some fun potential and amazingly enough is not too overpowered as its just one shot per round and several of the effects fail totally if the save is made. I think the Artificer is an interesting approach. I am playtesting this now to see how it works in the field as it were and so far been a-lot of fun. It does not seem to overshadow the fighter so far. But I am a little concerned with the Alchemist and their potential damage output. But like the Gunsmith the Fire and Acid effects are totally negated if saved vs.

Anyone else had a look at this? Opinions?

*Eyetwitches*  WHY?  Why did they feel the need to make the adventuring crafter?  WHY?  This is ONE TIME I personally will accept the complaint of MMO isms infecting table top RPGs.  The ONE time.  But WHY?  What niche does this fill on an adventuring party that isn't better served by another class?

WHY?

I give up.

I'm not really sold on it, although it's partially based on what sort of campaign do you want to run. If you want to up the tech levels of the game a bit then having a firearm class is fine, but I'm not sure this is the default setting of traditional D&D (for me, at least). I have similar reservations about having Psionics in the game too.

With regards to the Alchemist pathway, I prefer to have them represented by the Transmutation school of Wizards.

I'm all for subclasses and I like the idea behind the artificer, but the choices of subclasses -- "Alchemist" (should be Flaskflinger) and "Gunsmith" (should be Cannoneer) both leave me cold.

Shadow of the Demon Lord's Artificer (and its "natural" progression, the Technomancer) looks more interesting.

Quote from: The Butcher;941102I'm all for subclasses and I like the idea behind the artificer, but the choices of subclasses -- "Alchemist" (should be Flaskflinger) and "Gunsmith" (should be Cannoneer) both leave me cold.

Shadow of the Demon Lord's Artificer (and its "natural" progression, the Technomancer) looks more interesting.

Tell me of this Technomancer!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941093That's because (And this is a perception, but one I think is fundamental in nature, to the point that very few people seem to realize it) no one understands that Classes are supposed to be BROAD archetypes, instead we get a bunch of minipackages trying to cover EVERY SINGLE character idea in the ENTIRE universe.

Why?  Because everyone wants to be a speshul snofluk.

Looking over the Artificer

*Eyetwitches*  WHY?  Why did they feel the need to make the adventuring crafter?  WHY?  This is ONE TIME I personally will accept the complaint of MMO isms infecting table top RPGs.  The ONE time.  But WHY?  What niche does this fill on an adventuring party that isn't better served by another class?

WHY?

I give up.

1+2: Totally agree there.

3+4: The adventuring blacksmith or inventor has been a longstanding thing in fantasy. But oddly rare in RPGs as a class. Personally I prefer to go the skill route and in my own RPG way back one of the most iconic characters was an adventuring blacksmith/inventor built up from the warrior profession.

I feel like the Quick Charm, Robot Companion and the whole Alchemist in particular could have been done as a series of feats for example or just shuffled over to the Sorcerer as a path. The Gunsmith I think would have been fun to place with the Fighter or Ranger. Good news is that with how 5e is structured its easy to just pluck out those paths and drop them in another and go. Or even swap some of the main artificer tricks with another classes.

5: Why go this route? No clue really other than people complained sufficiently in the survey and WOTC listened. The original in the Eberron UA playtest packet was more a sort of "Temporary Enchants Stuff" path. Apparently the Artificer was a class previously in 3 or 4e?

Why have an adventuring crafter? Its a fun idea. But its a pain in the ass to translate into an adventurer and I think that how they did it here was both not how Id have done it. But at the same time done in a non-game breaking manner. My main concern is the damage output possibly overshadowing the Fighter. Luckily. They dont.

A basic 5e fighter with a greatsword can eventually output 8d6 damage with an average of 28 before stat mods 48 with a maxed STR. A little more with the Great Weapon style that allows you to re-roll 1s and 2s. +40 more with the appropriate feat (at the cost of missing a little more) +more from Battle Master maneuvers. +even more if they can acquire a magic weapon. +even more if they can get a strength boost past the 20 limit.

The Alchemist tops 10d6 with the acid. so average 35. The Gunsmith cranks out 11d6 damage, so average 38. But it is a single all or nothing attack. AND they get no stat bonuses and none of the synergies like the Fighter enjoys. So 35/38 vs a 48 with just working STR up.

6: Dont give up. Pick apart the artificer and apply the segments however you please. Or none at all. Right now its just a playtest and I hope they dont screw it up by adding more damage or something.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941093That's because (And this is a perception, but one I think is fundamental in nature, to the point that very few people seem to realize it) no one understands that Classes are supposed to be BROAD archetypes, instead we get a bunch of minipackages trying to cover EVERY SINGLE character idea in the ENTIRE universe.

Why?  Because everyone wants to be a speshul snofluk.

Looking over the Artificer

*Eyetwitches*  WHY?  Why did they feel the need to make the adventuring crafter?  WHY?  This is ONE TIME I personally will accept the complaint of MMO isms infecting table top RPGs.  The ONE time.  But WHY?  What niche does this fill on an adventuring party that isn't better served by another class?

WHY?

I give up.

It does depress me, because it reminds me of the same problem tenbones & I had about the Battlemaster. Tools for item creation have been woefully neglected in terms of recipe development -- just like weaponry and gear has been neglected. It shows a preference of solving things through exception-based widgets instead of democratized setting-defined equipment complexity.

It looks like they either don't trust their designing chops due of fear of cascading effects, or they capitulated to fan demand of reserving the everyday as special snowflake purview.

It looks fun. But it is a depressing indication of following the market, not innovating or leading it. It's long-form, half-assed palliatives instead of broadening the game.

Right. The other thing that bugs me about the artificer is that it totally chucks out a chunk of the crafting system 5e allready has and does not make any use at all of other parts of the crafting system.

The pieces are RIGHT THERE WOTC. Why arent you using them?

I would have made the Artificer a Background focused on Tools and a specialty of easier friendship to fellow professional craftsmen.

Then I would compile new recipe lists by Setting > Tech/Time Period > Racial/Cultural Conceits > Kingdom/Nation/Tribal Preferences. That would give example of how broad, diverse, and juicy you could really make your world. AND it gives reason to travel, to adventure!

Find legendary components! Learn cultural secrets and attitudes! See how new tech solves new problems! Trade, discover, apprentice, collect!

(Or reduce all this into unshared exception-based widgets and compare your PC DPS! whee!)

Quote from: Opaopajr;941140(Or reduce all this into unshared exception-based widgets and compare your PC DPS! whee!)

Totally. They leeched all the potential out of what this class could have been

Some of the bits are weird, like "Starting at 2nd level,   your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses any of the tool proficiencies you gain from this class." So now you have to keep track of which tool proficiencies come from class vs. background or other training. Great.

I'm thinking about doing an artificer class for my own game so these criticisms are interesting to me. My hunch is that you need to make the building and usage of magic items / artifacts /machines really interesting / vast for the whole business to work.

Quote from: HappyDaze;941153Some of the bits are weird, like "Starting at 2nd level,   your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses any of the tool proficiencies you gain from this class." So now you have to keep track of which tool proficiencies come from class vs. background or other training. Great.

I think its supposed to mean any tool proficiencies, not just the class only.

But since whomever wrote this seems to have totally forgotten the crafting rules allready in the PHB and DMG... All bets are off wether they even know theres backgrounds.

Quote from: Ashakyre;941155I'm thinking about doing an artificer class for my own game so these criticisms are interesting to me. My hunch is that you need to make the building and usage of magic items / artifacts /machines really interesting / vast for the whole business to work.

Unfortunatly thats not what this class is about. Its all wham bam here you go.

But to be fair the character is supposed to be working on this stuff on their off time. Constantly tinkering, experimenting till they hit a breakthrough. Or in the paths cases, gradually concocting more formulas and slowly improving their gun over time.

Quote from: Opaopajr;941140I would have made the Artificer a Background focused on Tools and a specialty of easier friendship to fellow professional craftsmen.

Then I would compile new recipe lists by Setting > Tech/Time Period > Racial/Cultural Conceits > Kingdom/Nation/Tribal Preferences. That would give example of how broad, diverse, and juicy you could really make your world. AND it gives reason to travel, to adventure!

Find legendary components! Learn cultural secrets and attitudes! See how new tech solves new problems! Trade, discover, apprentice, collect!

(Or reduce all this into unshared exception-based widgets and compare your PC DPS! whee!)

This is exactly how I would have done it. Now they're churning out these... "Prestige Classes" that do nothing for the system but segregate things further.

YOU get magic spells. And YOU get magic spells. And YOU get magic spells. And YOU get magic spells.

EVERY CLASS GETS MAGIC SPELLS!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]645[/ATTACH]

Quote from: tenbones;941192This is exactly how I would have done it. Now they're churning out these... "Prestige Classes" that do nothing for the system but segregate things further.

Not yet. But I'd lay good odds someones bitching to have those added in too.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;941206YOU get magic spells. And YOU get magic spells. And YOU get magic spells. And YOU get magic spells.

EVERY CLASS GETS MAGIC SPELLS!

Not quite. But damn close. The Barbarian, Fighter and the Rogue are the only ones who dont have magic. Technically the Monk doesnt either.

They all though get at least one path that can use a little magic.

Though honestly I prefer this to the alternative of 50 classes.

I suspect the impact of 3.x/PF/4e has left an indelible mark on the D&D populace going forward.

I've let that ship sail on without me. The last several UA posts have made my eyebrow twitch at the direction(s) they apparently are considering for 5e. It's like the gravity of the worst parts of 3.x/PF/4e are pulling what seemed to be the stable platform that 5e seemed to promise, back towards the abyss inch by inch.

Quote from: tenbones;941219I suspect the impact of 3.x/PF/4e has left an indelible mark on the D&D populace going forward.

I've let that ship sail on without me. The last several UA posts have made my eyebrow twitch at the direction(s) they apparently are considering for 5e. It's like the gravity of the worst parts of 3.x/PF/4e are pulling what seemed to be the stable platform that 5e seemed to promise, back towards the abyss inch by inch.

Which UA stuff would you ban from your table?

Quote from: Omega;941210Not quite. But damn close. The Barbarian, Fighter and the Rogue are the only ones who dont have magic. Technically the Monk doesnt either.

They all though get at least one path that can use a little magic.

Though honestly I prefer this to the alternative of 50 classes.

Wait until we get to 50 or sub-classes. Same problem with a different coat of paint. Fuck that noise.

And while we're at it. The Artificer was one of the things holding me back from really pushing for an Eberron game with my group. I could fudge the Dragon Marks and races easily enough, but I wanted that class.

But if my choices are alchemical grenadier or freaking long gunner, my interest has dropped so far as to bit negative numbers.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;941225Which UA stuff would you ban from your table?

Quick example. The Fighter UA introduces the Arcane Archer, Knight, Samurai, and Sharpshooter. Aside from the arcane archer. Why do these others even exist? Cant the fighter be a knight without a whole path?

The Monk has the Kensei and Tranquility paths. Essentially making the monk a Fighter and healer respectively.

Bards get the college of Glamour which is actually pretty interesting, and the college of Whispers which is kinda not.

Clerics get the Forge domain which allows enchanting items for a day, kind of like the Artificer. The Grave, which feels both redundant and could have been called another Life domain. And Protection. Which at least makes some small sense.

And so on.

Though there are also some interesting points like the aformentioned Bard Glamour college and the whole UA for the Druid introduces some interesting, though two not very nature themed new paths and one that doesnt quite fit its title. But more importantly has new rules for Druids acquiring forms that WOTC took from our submitted suggestions.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;941252Wait until we get to 50 or sub-classes. Same problem with a different coat of paint. Fuck that noise.

And while we're at it. The Artificer was one of the things holding me back from really pushing for an Eberron game with my group. I could fudge the Dragon Marks and races easily enough, but I wanted that class.

But if my choices are alchemical grenadier or freaking long gunner, my interest has dropped so far as to bit negative numbers.

Still better than 50 whole classes. The paths work. They might not work great. But still preferrable.

One interesting thing about 5e is that you could totally remove every path from every class and still have overall classes that play just fine. One or two might loose some tricks the class would normally get. Thief path for the Rogue for example, but still function without.

For the me, the big issue is 5e really, really doesn't need another class that primarily range attacks. Granted, the class is easy enough to ignore...but am I really the only guy who commonly sees adventuring parties with 1, maybe 2, melee characters while everyone else zips all over the place pew-pewing away? I'm going to start making some monsters abilities like "can't be wounded by attacks originating more than 10' away" just so some fights aren't weird kite battles.

Quote from: Doom;941278For the me, the big issue is 5e really, really doesn't need another class that primarily range attacks. Granted, the class is easy enough to ignore...but am I really the only guy who commonly sees adventuring parties with 1, maybe 2, melee characters while everyone else zips all over the place pew-pewing away? I'm going to start making some monsters abilities like "can't be wounded by attacks originating more than 10' away" just so some fights aren't weird kite battles.

Agree! The meat of the fight should be melee imo. Bit of ranged at the start, or by hanging back or something, but GET IN THERE AND FIGHT should be the mainstay, imo.

edit - otherwise you get a ranged/cover/kite battles more suited to a modern/future gun toting RPG like shadowrun or whatever

Quote from: Doom;941278For the me, the big issue is 5e really, really doesn't need another class that primarily range attacks.

Well to be fair any class could go ranged if they wanted even in older versions of D&D. Either mundane stuff like slings and arrows, darts and thrown weapons. Or play lazer gun with wands of magic missile.

5e still has that. But now all the main caster classes have at least one at will ranged cantrip. Some arent very ranged. But there they are right out the gate. Though only the Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard have any sort of broad selection.

The only classes without are the Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin and Thief. The Ranger has a batch of range trick spells so YMMV if the Ranger is in column A or Column B or in between.

So three strongly with. Three or four minorly with, 5 or six without. The Artificer will bring that up to four strongly with.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;941225Which UA stuff would you ban from your table?

It's not a case of "banning" simply because they exist. I think the UA stuff (generally) is a step in the wrong design direction of creating sub-classes where abilities are being ever segregated into things they shouldn't be. Omega's examples are spot-on. It's like they seem to decide arbitrarily what is a class vs. what is a background vs. what is an archetype - when they could create sub-systems that allow *all* of the classes to interact with these things without forcing them down a specific design path.

This is the same crap they did in 3.x/PF and branched off designwise into 4e. Both results were bad.

Quote from: tenbones;941323Omega's examples are spot-on. It's like they seem to decide arbitrarily what is a class vs. what is a background vs. what is an archetype -

 when they could create sub-systems that allow *all* of the classes to interact with these things without forcing them down a specific design path.

1: Yeah. They ignore whole swaths of rules allready in place. Again and again its af if they dont even know their own game they designed. Weirdest thing ever.

2: Actually the rules are there in the DMG as option suggestions. Ive used them. I just wish they had kept all the paths to a uniform progression. Its willy nilly as to where a path gets what, when or even how many. So it makes swapping bits a little more challenging. But its very do-able.

Quote from: Omega;941346Actually the rules are there in the DMG as option suggestions. Ive used them. I just wish they had kept all the paths to a uniform progression. Its willy nilly as to where a path gets what, when or even how many. So it makes swapping bits a little more challenging. But its very do-able.

Yeah the rules are there. I think the direction they're going isn't one where those optional rules will stand the inevitable bloat that their UA stuff promises. I could get what I want out of D&D using older editions or entirely different systems. I'm running Savage Worlds Forgotten Realms (set in 1e Greybox fluff) and it feels a lot better than when I did it using 5e.

It's the same character build shit from 3.x. A lot of the zany combos from GURPs or Rifts, but locked in a "lifepath" of X multi-class, Y archetypes sandwich of anticipation. Which then means play is a waiting room for picking up the next widget on the scavenger hunt list.

Thank goodness UA is just spitballed design ideas and not purchasable product. It doesn't cost money, it doesn't become canonical (for those who care), and it can be easily waved away with less player whinging. Because as a whole these spitballed ideas are terrible -- in its own design goal, consistency, and for the game's greater design longevity.

So far, Basic & Starter Set are the only things I would recommend to the average OSR pre-WotC fan. (Oh, and the new Tarokka Deck -- those collector's prices are killer!)

Quote from: Doom;941278For the me, the big issue is 5e really, really doesn't need another class that primarily range attacks. Granted, the class is easy enough to ignore...but am I really the only guy who commonly sees adventuring parties with 1, maybe 2, melee characters while everyone else zips all over the place pew-pewing away? I'm going to start making some monsters abilities like "can't be wounded by attacks originating more than 10' away" just so some fights aren't weird kite battles.

I think I recall that your average 5e party size is larger than mine (4.5), but I have a similar experience. There's never more than 2 melee guys. I wouldn't say that there is a lot of zipping around, but there's a preponderance of pew-pew.

Quote from: Opaopajr;941368Thank goodness UA is just spitballed design ideas and not purchasable product. It doesn't cost money, it doesn't become canonical (for those who care), and it can be easily waved away with less player whinging. Because as a whole these spitballed ideas are terrible -- in its own design goal, consistency, and for the game's greater design longevity.

So far the Warlock Undying Light path from the Underdark UA made it into Guide to the Sword Coast as did the Swashbuckler from the Waterborne UA. Both were changed in various ways. The Goliath from the EE booklet made into Volos Guide.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;941398I think I recall that your average 5e party size is larger than mine (4.5), but I have a similar experience. There's never more than 2 melee guys. I wouldn't say that there is a lot of zipping around, but there's a preponderance of pew-pew.

In the group Im in as a player its two melee and one archer. In the group Im GM for its 1 melee and two cantrip users. An upcomming group is going to be 2 melee.

(OK, off topic, one of the first and big changes I plan make to my not-RAW 5e is cutting cantrips down to "# equal to your casting stat, refreshed on a long rest." So INT 9 gets 9 cantrips total until next Long Rest. Not much I can do about certain too-useful cantrips like Guidance, except laser removal ban, but it keeps most disruptive ubiquity at bay.)

Sorta miffed that these UA archetypes are leaking into product while Weapon, Armor, Gear, & Tool are mostly languishing. I forget which non-DMG book added expansions to poisons and poultices, but we need more like that. I thought with caltrops, nets, ball bearings, and oil (and the Thief archetype) we were going to see more expansion on basic gear focused adventuring, but I think it might be beyond WotC's capacity at this point. They are busy catering to a clientele that wants chargen minigame. Fine, but I want (I wish) more designers to tinker with SRD, perhaps like Adventures in Middle Earth.

Add a component cost to guidance and one that has a cost so focuses cant cover for it. Like each casting uses up a lodestone shaped like hand for example. Or a bell, whatever. Simple things like this can help curb some of the more abusable spells. Guidance isnt though that much a hassle. 1d4 skill bonus? Some class paths get a permanent double skill bonus. And Giodance requires concentration and is one-shot, and is more useful outside combat than in since it is range of touch?

Of all the cantrips that is not one Id waste time worrying about. Same With Resistance. Which is Guidance for saves.

Spare the Dying is more bothersome as it contributes to the pop-o-matic KO problem 5e has with going to 0 HP.

Quote from: Omega;941451Add a component cost to guidance and one that has a cost so focuses cant cover for it. Like each casting uses up a lodestone shaped like hand for example. Or a bell, whatever. Simple things like this can help curb some of the more abusable spells. Guidance isnt though that much a hassle. 1d4 skill bonus? Some class paths get a permanent double skill bonus. And Giodance requires concentration and is one-shot, and is more useful outside combat than in since it is range of touch?

Of all the cantrips that is not one Id waste time worrying about. Same With Resistance. Which is Guidance for saves.

Spare the Dying is more bothersome as it contributes to the pop-o-matic KO problem 5e has with going to 0 HP.

I don't think a single caster in any of my groups has Guidance. If someone does have it, I've never noticed them use it.

While I know the clerics in my groups all have Spare the Dying, it doesn't see very much use. How does it contribute to the yo-yo problem in your games?

Quote from: Opaopajr;941440Fine, but I want (I wish) more designers to tinker with SRD, perhaps like Adventures in Middle Earth.

I'm spinning this off into its own thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35965-D-amp-D-5e-What-would-you-like-to-see-done-with-the-SRD&p=941479#post941479).

Quote from: Natty Bodak;941475While I know the clerics in my groups all have Spare the Dying, it doesn't see very much use. How does it contribute to the yo-yo problem in your games?

oops. My bad. I was thinking of the original playtest version. Originally it gave the 0 HP target 1 hp. Which pops them back up.

Quote from: Omega;941517oops. My bad. I was thinking of the original playtest version. Originally it gave the 0 HP target 1 hp. Which pops them back up.

I had completely forgotten that from the playtest packets.

Healing Word is the culprit for us.  It's not a cantrip obviously, but a bonus action ranged 1st level heal? ¡Ai caramba!

Quote from: The Butcher;941480I'm spinning this off into its own thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35965-D-amp-D-5e-What-would-you-like-to-see-done-with-the-SRD&p=941479#post941479).

Rock on! I'll migrate over there.

(As for Guidance, it really is a ubiquitous spell outside of combat. Given that is two thirds of the game play pillars, and possibly in combat if someone cares about Grappling, it should be spammed. There's little reason to not have it on upon someone at some point. Extra 1d4 on any Ability Check, usable before or after the roll, for essentially zero cost? Yes please! Very touchy-feely clerics wandering the world...)

Another UA just went up. "Dimension step" Rangers, "Hugged a tree too much" Rangers, and "I really wanted to be a Ranger" Rogues.

These at least have some nice quirks and widgets that actually fit the theme.