Quote from: tenbones;941323Omega's examples are spot-on. It's like they seem to decide arbitrarily what is a class vs. what is a background vs. what is an archetype -

 when they could create sub-systems that allow *all* of the classes to interact with these things without forcing them down a specific design path.

1: Yeah. They ignore whole swaths of rules allready in place. Again and again its af if they dont even know their own game they designed. Weirdest thing ever.

2: Actually the rules are there in the DMG as option suggestions. Ive used them. I just wish they had kept all the paths to a uniform progression. Its willy nilly as to where a path gets what, when or even how many. So it makes swapping bits a little more challenging. But its very do-able.

Quote from: Omega;941346Actually the rules are there in the DMG as option suggestions. Ive used them. I just wish they had kept all the paths to a uniform progression. Its willy nilly as to where a path gets what, when or even how many. So it makes swapping bits a little more challenging. But its very do-able.

Yeah the rules are there. I think the direction they're going isn't one where those optional rules will stand the inevitable bloat that their UA stuff promises. I could get what I want out of D&D using older editions or entirely different systems. I'm running Savage Worlds Forgotten Realms (set in 1e Greybox fluff) and it feels a lot better than when I did it using 5e.

It's the same character build shit from 3.x. A lot of the zany combos from GURPs or Rifts, but locked in a "lifepath" of X multi-class, Y archetypes sandwich of anticipation. Which then means play is a waiting room for picking up the next widget on the scavenger hunt list.

Thank goodness UA is just spitballed design ideas and not purchasable product. It doesn't cost money, it doesn't become canonical (for those who care), and it can be easily waved away with less player whinging. Because as a whole these spitballed ideas are terrible -- in its own design goal, consistency, and for the game's greater design longevity.

So far, Basic & Starter Set are the only things I would recommend to the average OSR pre-WotC fan. (Oh, and the new Tarokka Deck -- those collector's prices are killer!)

Quote from: Doom;941278For the me, the big issue is 5e really, really doesn't need another class that primarily range attacks. Granted, the class is easy enough to ignore...but am I really the only guy who commonly sees adventuring parties with 1, maybe 2, melee characters while everyone else zips all over the place pew-pewing away? I'm going to start making some monsters abilities like "can't be wounded by attacks originating more than 10' away" just so some fights aren't weird kite battles.

I think I recall that your average 5e party size is larger than mine (4.5), but I have a similar experience. There's never more than 2 melee guys. I wouldn't say that there is a lot of zipping around, but there's a preponderance of pew-pew.

Quote from: Opaopajr;941368Thank goodness UA is just spitballed design ideas and not purchasable product. It doesn't cost money, it doesn't become canonical (for those who care), and it can be easily waved away with less player whinging. Because as a whole these spitballed ideas are terrible -- in its own design goal, consistency, and for the game's greater design longevity.

So far the Warlock Undying Light path from the Underdark UA made it into Guide to the Sword Coast as did the Swashbuckler from the Waterborne UA. Both were changed in various ways. The Goliath from the EE booklet made into Volos Guide.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;941398I think I recall that your average 5e party size is larger than mine (4.5), but I have a similar experience. There's never more than 2 melee guys. I wouldn't say that there is a lot of zipping around, but there's a preponderance of pew-pew.

In the group Im in as a player its two melee and one archer. In the group Im GM for its 1 melee and two cantrip users. An upcomming group is going to be 2 melee.

(OK, off topic, one of the first and big changes I plan make to my not-RAW 5e is cutting cantrips down to "# equal to your casting stat, refreshed on a long rest." So INT 9 gets 9 cantrips total until next Long Rest. Not much I can do about certain too-useful cantrips like Guidance, except laser removal ban, but it keeps most disruptive ubiquity at bay.)

Sorta miffed that these UA archetypes are leaking into product while Weapon, Armor, Gear, & Tool are mostly languishing. I forget which non-DMG book added expansions to poisons and poultices, but we need more like that. I thought with caltrops, nets, ball bearings, and oil (and the Thief archetype) we were going to see more expansion on basic gear focused adventuring, but I think it might be beyond WotC's capacity at this point. They are busy catering to a clientele that wants chargen minigame. Fine, but I want (I wish) more designers to tinker with SRD, perhaps like Adventures in Middle Earth.

Add a component cost to guidance and one that has a cost so focuses cant cover for it. Like each casting uses up a lodestone shaped like hand for example. Or a bell, whatever. Simple things like this can help curb some of the more abusable spells. Guidance isnt though that much a hassle. 1d4 skill bonus? Some class paths get a permanent double skill bonus. And Giodance requires concentration and is one-shot, and is more useful outside combat than in since it is range of touch?

Of all the cantrips that is not one Id waste time worrying about. Same With Resistance. Which is Guidance for saves.

Spare the Dying is more bothersome as it contributes to the pop-o-matic KO problem 5e has with going to 0 HP.

Quote from: Omega;941451Add a component cost to guidance and one that has a cost so focuses cant cover for it. Like each casting uses up a lodestone shaped like hand for example. Or a bell, whatever. Simple things like this can help curb some of the more abusable spells. Guidance isnt though that much a hassle. 1d4 skill bonus? Some class paths get a permanent double skill bonus. And Giodance requires concentration and is one-shot, and is more useful outside combat than in since it is range of touch?

Of all the cantrips that is not one Id waste time worrying about. Same With Resistance. Which is Guidance for saves.

Spare the Dying is more bothersome as it contributes to the pop-o-matic KO problem 5e has with going to 0 HP.

I don't think a single caster in any of my groups has Guidance. If someone does have it, I've never noticed them use it.

While I know the clerics in my groups all have Spare the Dying, it doesn't see very much use. How does it contribute to the yo-yo problem in your games?

Quote from: Opaopajr;941440Fine, but I want (I wish) more designers to tinker with SRD, perhaps like Adventures in Middle Earth.

I'm spinning this off into its own thread.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;941475While I know the clerics in my groups all have Spare the Dying, it doesn't see very much use. How does it contribute to the yo-yo problem in your games?

oops. My bad. I was thinking of the original playtest version. Originally it gave the 0 HP target 1 hp. Which pops them back up.

Quote from: Omega;941517oops. My bad. I was thinking of the original playtest version. Originally it gave the 0 HP target 1 hp. Which pops them back up.

I had completely forgotten that from the playtest packets.

Healing Word is the culprit for us.  It's not a cantrip obviously, but a bonus action ranged 1st level heal? ¡Ai caramba!

Quote from: The Butcher;941480I'm spinning this off into its own thread.

Rock on! I'll migrate over there.

(As for Guidance, it really is a ubiquitous spell outside of combat. Given that is two thirds of the game play pillars, and possibly in combat if someone cares about Grappling, it should be spammed. There's little reason to not have it on upon someone at some point. Extra 1d4 on any Ability Check, usable before or after the roll, for essentially zero cost? Yes please! Very touchy-feely clerics wandering the world...)

Another UA just went up. "Dimension step" Rangers, "Hugged a tree too much" Rangers, and "I really wanted to be a Ranger" Rogues.

These at least have some nice quirks and widgets that actually fit the theme.