A sort of mini-review I guess?

A few days ago WOTC posted up their revision of the Artificer class path from the UA Eberron PDF.

From their survey feedback they decided that instead of being a path for Wizards. The Artificer will now be its own class.

That is right. After a decade or two of bitching about too many classes... now people demanded for more classes...

Looking over the Artificer as it now stands I can see that somewhat it does make sense to cull it off into its own thing. Though personally I think it would have worked fine as a path for the Sorcerer considering the artificers abilities as presented.

So whats it got?
a d8 for HD: Considering the classes power personally I'd have dropped that to a d6.
Light and medium armour: Not sure on the medium. But from some perspectives it kinda fits.
Simple weapons: Least they got that right.
Tool proficiency: Thieves tools and 2 others
Skills - 3 - Sleight of Hand, Arcana, History, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Religion, or Deception: Deception seems out of place? Id replace that with Insight.
Saves: CON & INT

They get access to lesser spells similar to the Paladin and Ranger do. But not till level 3. No cantrips. They start off knowing 3 spells, and gain another at levels 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 19 and 20.
At 1st level they can cast Identify and Detect magic as rituals.
2nd level they get 2x their prof bonus when using tool skills.
From 2nd level on they finish work on a magic item project. A bag of holding, cap of water breathing, driftglobe, goggles of night, or sending stones. And finish another at 5, 10, 15 and 20, with the selection expanding at each tier. They are allmost all personal items and from the common and uncommon ranges overall so not anything game breaking.
At 4th level they can charge an item with a spell they know that has a cast time of 1 action. The item only holds the spell up to 8 hours. But anyone with an INT of at least 6 can use it. Number can charge is limited to the Artificers INT mod. Sort of like a quick create scroll ability. Or making a simple one shot charm.
At 5th level they can now attune 4 magic items instead of the normal 3. At 15th level this bumps up to 5 and up to 6 at level 20. This is the first class to be able to exceed the attunement limit. I can see this being popular with players who love to acquire lots of magic items.
At 6th level they finish construction of a mechanical servant. Choose a Large Bast of CR 2 or less and your robot buddy has all its stats. But you can make it look like anything you want as long as it fits the abilities of the beast patterned on. Works like most constructs but cant be "healed" unless its been "killed". The Artificer tinkering with it during a long rest to revive it if they salvaged the body. Otherwise they have to rebuild it. It acts on its own like some pets, but can be given orders by using a reaction if you are attacked and its within 5ft of the attacker. This has all sorts of potential and considering that the Large Beast category covers things like Giant Eagles and Giant Spiders you have yourself an aircraft, a mechanical boat, or an wall crawling ATV to ride.

There are two paths for this class. The Alchemist and the Gunsmith.

The Alchemist is all about flinging magic concoctions at people. They start knowing 1 formula and can pick up 4 more. They have a magic satchel they can pluck out of exactly the formula vial they need. Formulas include.
Alchemichal Fire: Essentially a small grenade doing 1d6 to anyone in a 5ft radius of the blast. Every few levels this increases a die. 7d6 at level 19. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Alchemichal Acid: much the same, but tops out at 10d6. But effects only 1 target. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Healing Draught: Which heals 1d8 damage and can be used by others. It tops out at 10d8. But someone can only benefit from one per long rest. The vial can be held up to 1 hour and the Alchemist cant make another untill it is used or vanishes at the end of the duration.
Smoke Stick: about equivalent to a 10ft radius darkness spell. Blocks vision and darkvision. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Swift Step: Boosts movement by 20ft. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Tanglefoot: A 5ft radius glue trap when tossed. Makes the space difficult terrain to cross and halves speed of anyone ending their turn in the stuff. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Thunderstone: CON save for everyone within 10ft of the impact or be knocked prone and pushed 10ft away from that point.

The Gunsmith as one might guess, makes a techno-magic rifle. They start off with proficiency in Smiths Tools and know the Mending cantrip. But more importantly they have a weapon called the Thundercannon. This is something between a musket and a rail gun as it throws a lead bullet at ranges of 150/500 and does 2d6 piercing damage. Bonus action to reload. Its reloaded from an Arcane Magazine which holds the stuff needed to make each shell. The Gunsmith during a long rest can craft 40 rounds, and 10 more on a short rest.
At level 3 you turn the thing into a magical rail gun to increase the damage output. This increases as you gain level tiers and tops out at 9d6 extra damage.
At level 9 the gun can blast a 15ft cone of concussive force instead, doing some damage and pushing targets away if they fail a save. Damage tops at 4d6.
At 14th level you turn the thing into a proton pack or AT rifle. Can fire a bolt of lightning that zaps everything in the 30ft path. 4d6 damage on a failed save, bumped up to 6d6 at level 19.
At level 19 you add effectively a rocket launcher round to the thing. At point of impact a 3ft radius explosion doing 4d8 fire damage on a failed save.

Overall I like the Gunsmith class a-lot as its got some fun potential and amazingly enough is not too overpowered as its just one shot per round and several of the effects fail totally if the save is made. I think the Artificer is an interesting approach. I am playtesting this now to see how it works in the field as it were and so far been a-lot of fun. It does not seem to overshadow the fighter so far. But I am a little concerned with the Alchemist and their potential damage output. But like the Gunsmith the Fire and Acid effects are totally negated if saved vs.

Anyone else had a look at this? Opinions?

This sounds awesome! Thank you for posting this. Is there anything on the rest of the Eberron stuff (warforged, shifters, Dragonmarks, etc)?

Nevermind. I found it. Some cool stuff at first glance.

Yeah, i really like it. I don't think it could really be tagged on as a path to another class. Not sure why they get medium armour or the d8 hit die though. Would have to see in play whether that or d6 and light armour works best.

Medium armour fits at least thematically for a craftsman themed class to make. But no so sure on wearing. I think its handy for the relatively short ranged Alchemist, but the long range Gunsmith not so much?

One concern in retrospect is the Gunsmiths ability to craft shells. Whats to stop them from saying "I spend a day using short rests to make a total of 200 shells a day. (160+40). The other is that they effectively get late in the game an at-will Lightning bolt and fireball.

Quote from: Omega;941003That is right. After a decade or two of bitching about too many classes... now people demanded for more classes...

That's because (And this is a perception, but one I think is fundamental in nature, to the point that very few people seem to realize it) no one understands that Classes are supposed to be BROAD archetypes, instead we get a bunch of minipackages trying to cover EVERY SINGLE character idea in the ENTIRE universe.

Why?  Because everyone wants to be a speshul snofluk.

Looking over the Artificer

Quote from: Omega;941003as it now stands I can see that somewhat it does make sense to cull it off into its own thing. Though personally I think it would have worked fine as a path for the Sorcerer considering the artificers abilities as presented.

So whats it got?
a d8 for HD: Considering the classes power personally I'd have dropped that to a d6.
Light and medium armour: Not sure on the medium. But from some perspectives it kinda fits.
Simple weapons: Least they got that right.
Tool proficiency: Thieves tools and 2 others
Skills - 3 - Sleight of Hand, Arcana, History, Investigation, Medicine, Nature, Religion, or Deception: Deception seems out of place? Id replace that with Insight.
Saves: CON & INT

They get access to lesser spells similar to the Paladin and Ranger do. But not till level 3. No cantrips. They start off knowing 3 spells, and gain another at levels 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 19 and 20.
At 1st level they can cast Identify and Detect magic as rituals.
2nd level they get 2x their prof bonus when using tool skills.
From 2nd level on they finish work on a magic item project. A bag of holding, cap of water breathing, driftglobe, goggles of night, or sending stones. And finish another at 5, 10, 15 and 20, with the selection expanding at each tier. They are allmost all personal items and from the common and uncommon ranges overall so not anything game breaking.
At 4th level they can charge an item with a spell they know that has a cast time of 1 action. The item only holds the spell up to 8 hours. But anyone with an INT of at least 6 can use it. Number can charge is limited to the Artificers INT mod. Sort of like a quick create scroll ability. Or making a simple one shot charm.
At 5th level they can now attune 4 magic items instead of the normal 3. At 15th level this bumps up to 5 and up to 6 at level 20. This is the first class to be able to exceed the attunement limit. I can see this being popular with players who love to acquire lots of magic items.
At 6th level they finish construction of a mechanical servant. Choose a Large Bast of CR 2 or less and your robot buddy has all its stats. But you can make it look like anything you want as long as it fits the abilities of the beast patterned on. Works like most constructs but cant be "healed" unless its been "killed". The Artificer tinkering with it during a long rest to revive it if they salvaged the body. Otherwise they have to rebuild it. It acts on its own like some pets, but can be given orders by using a reaction if you are attacked and its within 5ft of the attacker. This has all sorts of potential and considering that the Large Beast category covers things like Giant Eagles and Giant Spiders you have yourself an aircraft, a mechanical boat, or an wall crawling ATV to ride.

There are two paths for this class. The Alchemist and the Gunsmith.

The Alchemist is all about flinging magic concoctions at people. They start knowing 1 formula and can pick up 4 more. They have a magic satchel they can pluck out of exactly the formula vial they need. Formulas include.
Alchemichal Fire: Essentially a small grenade doing 1d6 to anyone in a 5ft radius of the blast. Every few levels this increases a die. 7d6 at level 19. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Alchemichal Acid: much the same, but tops out at 10d6. But effects only 1 target. Vanishes if you do not immediately use it.
Healing Draught: Which heals 1d8 damage and can be used by others. It tops out at 10d8. But someone can only benefit from one per long rest. The vial can be held up to 1 hour and the Alchemist cant make another untill it is used or vanishes at the end of the duration.
Smoke Stick: about equivalent to a 10ft radius darkness spell. Blocks vision and darkvision. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Swift Step: Boosts movement by 20ft. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Tanglefoot: A 5ft radius glue trap when tossed. Makes the space difficult terrain to cross and halves speed of anyone ending their turn in the stuff. Lasts 10 rounds. Can only make 1 per 10 rounds.
Thunderstone: CON save for everyone within 10ft of the impact or be knocked prone and pushed 10ft away from that point.

The Gunsmith as one might guess, makes a techno-magic rifle. They start off with proficiency in Smiths Tools and know the Mending cantrip. But more importantly they have a weapon called the Thundercannon. This is something between a musket and a rail gun as it throws a lead bullet at ranges of 150/500 and does 2d6 piercing damage. Bonus action to reload. Its reloaded from an Arcane Magazine which holds the stuff needed to make each shell. The Gunsmith during a long rest can craft 40 rounds, and 10 more on a short rest.
At level 3 you turn the thing into a magical rail gun to increase the damage output. This increases as you gain level tiers and tops out at 9d6 extra damage.
At level 9 the gun can blast a 15ft cone of concussive force instead, doing some damage and pushing targets away if they fail a save. Damage tops at 4d6.
At 14th level you turn the thing into a proton pack or AT rifle. Can fire a bolt of lightning that zaps everything in the 30ft path. 4d6 damage on a failed save, bumped up to 6d6 at level 19.
At level 19 you add effectively a rocket launcher round to the thing. At point of impact a 3ft radius explosion doing 4d8 fire damage on a failed save.

Overall I like the Gunsmith class a-lot as its got some fun potential and amazingly enough is not too overpowered as its just one shot per round and several of the effects fail totally if the save is made. I think the Artificer is an interesting approach. I am playtesting this now to see how it works in the field as it were and so far been a-lot of fun. It does not seem to overshadow the fighter so far. But I am a little concerned with the Alchemist and their potential damage output. But like the Gunsmith the Fire and Acid effects are totally negated if saved vs.

Anyone else had a look at this? Opinions?

*Eyetwitches*  WHY?  Why did they feel the need to make the adventuring crafter?  WHY?  This is ONE TIME I personally will accept the complaint of MMO isms infecting table top RPGs.  The ONE time.  But WHY?  What niche does this fill on an adventuring party that isn't better served by another class?

WHY?

I give up.

I'm not really sold on it, although it's partially based on what sort of campaign do you want to run. If you want to up the tech levels of the game a bit then having a firearm class is fine, but I'm not sure this is the default setting of traditional D&D (for me, at least). I have similar reservations about having Psionics in the game too.

With regards to the Alchemist pathway, I prefer to have them represented by the Transmutation school of Wizards.

I'm all for subclasses and I like the idea behind the artificer, but the choices of subclasses -- "Alchemist" (should be Flaskflinger) and "Gunsmith" (should be Cannoneer) both leave me cold.

Shadow of the Demon Lord's Artificer (and its "natural" progression, the Technomancer) looks more interesting.

Quote from: The Butcher;941102I'm all for subclasses and I like the idea behind the artificer, but the choices of subclasses -- "Alchemist" (should be Flaskflinger) and "Gunsmith" (should be Cannoneer) both leave me cold.

Shadow of the Demon Lord's Artificer (and its "natural" progression, the Technomancer) looks more interesting.

Tell me of this Technomancer!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941093That's because (And this is a perception, but one I think is fundamental in nature, to the point that very few people seem to realize it) no one understands that Classes are supposed to be BROAD archetypes, instead we get a bunch of minipackages trying to cover EVERY SINGLE character idea in the ENTIRE universe.

Why?  Because everyone wants to be a speshul snofluk.

Looking over the Artificer

*Eyetwitches*  WHY?  Why did they feel the need to make the adventuring crafter?  WHY?  This is ONE TIME I personally will accept the complaint of MMO isms infecting table top RPGs.  The ONE time.  But WHY?  What niche does this fill on an adventuring party that isn't better served by another class?

WHY?

I give up.

1+2: Totally agree there.

3+4: The adventuring blacksmith or inventor has been a longstanding thing in fantasy. But oddly rare in RPGs as a class. Personally I prefer to go the skill route and in my own RPG way back one of the most iconic characters was an adventuring blacksmith/inventor built up from the warrior profession.

I feel like the Quick Charm, Robot Companion and the whole Alchemist in particular could have been done as a series of feats for example or just shuffled over to the Sorcerer as a path. The Gunsmith I think would have been fun to place with the Fighter or Ranger. Good news is that with how 5e is structured its easy to just pluck out those paths and drop them in another and go. Or even swap some of the main artificer tricks with another classes.

5: Why go this route? No clue really other than people complained sufficiently in the survey and WOTC listened. The original in the Eberron UA playtest packet was more a sort of "Temporary Enchants Stuff" path. Apparently the Artificer was a class previously in 3 or 4e?

Why have an adventuring crafter? Its a fun idea. But its a pain in the ass to translate into an adventurer and I think that how they did it here was both not how Id have done it. But at the same time done in a non-game breaking manner. My main concern is the damage output possibly overshadowing the Fighter. Luckily. They dont.

A basic 5e fighter with a greatsword can eventually output 8d6 damage with an average of 28 before stat mods 48 with a maxed STR. A little more with the Great Weapon style that allows you to re-roll 1s and 2s. +40 more with the appropriate feat (at the cost of missing a little more) +more from Battle Master maneuvers. +even more if they can acquire a magic weapon. +even more if they can get a strength boost past the 20 limit.

The Alchemist tops 10d6 with the acid. so average 35. The Gunsmith cranks out 11d6 damage, so average 38. But it is a single all or nothing attack. AND they get no stat bonuses and none of the synergies like the Fighter enjoys. So 35/38 vs a 48 with just working STR up.

6: Dont give up. Pick apart the artificer and apply the segments however you please. Or none at all. Right now its just a playtest and I hope they dont screw it up by adding more damage or something.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941093That's because (And this is a perception, but one I think is fundamental in nature, to the point that very few people seem to realize it) no one understands that Classes are supposed to be BROAD archetypes, instead we get a bunch of minipackages trying to cover EVERY SINGLE character idea in the ENTIRE universe.

Why?  Because everyone wants to be a speshul snofluk.

Looking over the Artificer

*Eyetwitches*  WHY?  Why did they feel the need to make the adventuring crafter?  WHY?  This is ONE TIME I personally will accept the complaint of MMO isms infecting table top RPGs.  The ONE time.  But WHY?  What niche does this fill on an adventuring party that isn't better served by another class?

WHY?

I give up.

It does depress me, because it reminds me of the same problem tenbones & I had about the Battlemaster. Tools for item creation have been woefully neglected in terms of recipe development -- just like weaponry and gear has been neglected. It shows a preference of solving things through exception-based widgets instead of democratized setting-defined equipment complexity.

It looks like they either don't trust their designing chops due of fear of cascading effects, or they capitulated to fan demand of reserving the everyday as special snowflake purview.

It looks fun. But it is a depressing indication of following the market, not innovating or leading it. It's long-form, half-assed palliatives instead of broadening the game.

Right. The other thing that bugs me about the artificer is that it totally chucks out a chunk of the crafting system 5e allready has and does not make any use at all of other parts of the crafting system.

The pieces are RIGHT THERE WOTC. Why arent you using them?

I would have made the Artificer a Background focused on Tools and a specialty of easier friendship to fellow professional craftsmen.

Then I would compile new recipe lists by Setting > Tech/Time Period > Racial/Cultural Conceits > Kingdom/Nation/Tribal Preferences. That would give example of how broad, diverse, and juicy you could really make your world. AND it gives reason to travel, to adventure!

Find legendary components! Learn cultural secrets and attitudes! See how new tech solves new problems! Trade, discover, apprentice, collect!

(Or reduce all this into unshared exception-based widgets and compare your PC DPS! whee!)

Quote from: Opaopajr;941140(Or reduce all this into unshared exception-based widgets and compare your PC DPS! whee!)

Totally. They leeched all the potential out of what this class could have been

Some of the bits are weird, like "Starting at 2nd level,   your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses any of the tool proficiencies you gain from this class." So now you have to keep track of which tool proficiencies come from class vs. background or other training. Great.

I'm thinking about doing an artificer class for my own game so these criticisms are interesting to me. My hunch is that you need to make the building and usage of magic items / artifacts /machines really interesting / vast for the whole business to work.