Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;799903That thread is so tedious to read because of all the whining and crying, so I thought I'd run through it looking at just the posts of the guy who actually has the information and extract what he says (some of this we already knew from the previews, but I'll include it anyway for completeness...

Very helpful, thank you.

Quote from: ggroy;799927At times I wonder how much of the 4E Essentials product line collapse was due to people who just got "burned out" on the 4E splatbook treadmill.  (I don't know how much the 4E splatbook treadmill was dependent on the hardcore "compulsive completionists").

My experience was that the biggest failure of Essentials was in marketing to prospective new D&D players. No one could tell they were supposed to buy a book called "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" and/or "Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms", so they didn't. As an entry point into D&D it was an abject failure. Every new 4e player I saw in 2011 - I saw quite a few - would turn up with a 2008 PHB, if anything, and no idea the Essentials books existed.

Edit: Then they would struggle with the hellish 4e online character generator.

Quote from: S'mon;800076My experience was that the biggest failure of Essentials was in marketing to prospective new D&D players. No one could tell they were supposed to buy a book called "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" and/or "Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms", so they didn't. As an entry point into D&D it was an abject failure. Every new 4e player I saw in 2011 - I saw quite a few - would turn up with a 2008 PHB, if anything, and no idea the Essentials books existed.

Edit: Then they would struggle with the hellish 4e online character generator.

The product line was also designed for brick and mortar games retailers. Which, sad to say, aren't that big of a driver of D&D product anymore.

I don't think we can comment on D&D 4E Essentials because by the time it was released 4E was already in a rut.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;800037I think he means the "oh no, they mentioned non-binary genders and sexualities, think of the childreeen?".

In other words, he's an idiot.

You know what's funny? If people like him didn't make a big stink out of that paragraph, nobody who plays D&D would be talking about it anymore. It only matters to the audience it is intended to reach. It impacts nobody else.

Quote from: Will;800036Real world politicization of D&D? What the huh?

See, now that comment might make sense coming from me, but I kind of thought you were all about the "everything is political".  If they didn't mention it, it would be political, right?  So isn't it political if they did?

Pick one, dude.

"Agree", "Disagree", "Whatever", etc... but "Huh", from you?

Yeah.

I don't think everything is political, and I've never said that.

Maybe you should assume less and listen more.

Yeah ok, no clue to what he could possibly have referring to.

Well, it kind of came out of left field. And it seemed utterly weird given how reasonable he was other than that comment (my preconceptions that 'reasonable' to me means 'agrees with me,' granted).

Quote from: Teazia;800034Further on to firings, IMO Mearls should be fired for his real world politicization of D&D

Until the liberals here piled in on this, I had no idea it was apparently a reference to Mearls wanting everyone to play "men trapped in women's bodies", I think was the line. Is that what you meant? If so, did you really think he should be fired for that?

I thought it was a bit of a silly line, but trying to get people fired for speechcrime is what the other guys do. The bad guys.

For Yig's sake, can we have one thread where I don't see the word "liberal/conservative" the moment I click "last post"?

Yes, transes are now okay to play as, whatever.

I'm more worried how much poison rules'll be covered, since no answer in the links, and my players' characters came down with a strong fever, and the only prescription is more Manbane.

Quote from: Will;800098Well, it kind of came out of left field. And it seemed utterly weird given how reasonable he was other than that comment (my preconceptions that 'reasonable' to me means 'agrees with me,' granted).

Fair enough, had to be at work before 6, probably a little grumpy.

Quote from: Rincewind1;800101For Yig's sake, can we have one thread where I don't see the word "liberal" the moment I click "last post"?

You're being quite liberal with your invocations of Great Old Ones, aren't you?

I'm glad the DMG is out, at least now every question or comment won't be answered with "There will be 35 three-dimensional dials for that in the DMG."

It's all good! I've been a little more ornery than I'd like a few past nights due to fatigue and a drink or two, so.

Quote from: S'mon;800076My experience was that the biggest failure of Essentials was in marketing to prospective new D&D players. No one could tell they were supposed to buy a book called "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" and/or "Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms", so they didn't. As an entry point into D&D it was an abject failure. Every new 4e player I saw in 2011 - I saw quite a few - would turn up with a 2008 PHB, if anything, and no idea the Essentials books existed.

Huh. I thought the split was very clever. Want to play one of the four basic classes? Buy Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Want to play one of the four more advanced classes? Buy the Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. And the great thing is each player doesn't need his own a big (and expensive) hardback, but can pick up a smaller (and much cheaper) softcover. And having two softcover books at the table to share - each of which contains the core rules for playing - for the same cost as one big hardcover seems like a big win for accessibility and ease of use.

In fact, it was browsing the Essentials books at my FLGS, and marveling at the format, book design, and usability that prompted me to give 4E a try in the first place. But I realize I'm in the minority there. In general, I find the preferences, habits, and pain-points of hardcore geeks to be utterly baffling. Things that arouse nerdfury in most hobbyists, (perceived need to own everything, re-used content, page count per dollar) are irrelevant to me, and things that irritate me to no end (poor book layout, massive all-in-one tomes, neglect of usability at the table) don't seem to bother most geeks at all.

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;799903That thread is so tedious to read because of all the whining and crying, so I thought I'd run through it looking at just the posts of the guy who actually has the information and extract what he says (some of this we already knew from the previews, but I'll include it anyway for completeness...

• There are guidelines on how to create new races and sub-races.
• Aasimar (the "how to create a new race" example) get Light as a cantrip at 1st level, Lesser Restoration once per long rest at 3rd level, and Daylight at 5th level.
• There's a optional rule to make short rests 5 mins and long rests 1 hour if you prefer a faster moving game.
• There's an optional spell point system to use instead of spell slots, but you can still only cast one spell each of 6th-9th level per day.
• There are optional "villainous" character sub-classes: the Death domain for clerics and the Oathbreaker paladin type (which is kind of an antipaladin/blackguard).
• There are optional rules for recurring expenses, building a stronghold, running a business, carousing, selling magic items, gaining renown, performing sacred rites, sowing rumors and training to gain levels; but no explicit rules on running a dominion. There are some suggestions to create further downtime activities.
• There are optional rules for using square and hex grids; including flanking (which grants advantage) and facing.
• There are optional combat rules for climbing on a bigger creature, disarming, marking (which grants advantage on opportunity attacks against the marked creature), overrunning, shoving aside and tumbling. There's also an option for hitting cover (basically the 3e rule).
• There are optional rules for lingering wounds, massive damage and morale (a wisdom save in appropriate situations).
• There are random treasure tables, based on the CR of the monster.
• There are optional rules for making magic items. The cost is based on the rarity category of the item, and may or may not require special components at the DM's discretion. There is an option for buying magic items, but no price list for individual items (although a simple one based on rarity could easily be extrapolated from the crafting costs and a mark-up).
• There's a table for CR and expected abilities for monsters. The info on this isn't clear, but I think that it works by having a CR for offensive abilities and one for defensive abilities, and then the two are averaged to find the final CR of the creature and the creature's proficiency bonuses are then worked out from this average CR. It apparently looks reasonably easy to use in reverse starting with a desired CR and working out what the abilities might be.
• There are optional rules for fear and horror checks. The fear checks are wisdom based. The horror checks are charisma based and work a lot like those in Call of Cthulhu with short term and long term insanities.
• The maximum bonus on magic items is +3.
• There are magical shields as well as armour.
• There are a few pages devoted to traps, with some examples.
• There's an optional rule for ditching skills and simply giving proficiency with ability checks based on one or more ability scores.
• There's Elven Chain, which is +1 chain that you don't need proficiency to wear.

Thanks!  This actually looks rather promising.

This is the EnWorld Summary:

Aasimar racial spells: They have light as cantrip. At 3rd level they get lesser restoration once per long rest. At 5th level they get daylight.

Rest options: I quickly glanced through the customization options and I've noticed that they are very brief. For example, under the rest options, it merely says that you can make short rest 5 minutes and long rest 1 hour, but there is little discussion of the ramifications.

Spell points: You get a number of spell points (and the maximum level that you can cast) depending on your level. You get 4 at 1st level, 6 at 2nd, 14 at 3rd, 64 at 10th level and 133 at 20th level. You can only cast a spell of each level per day at 6ht and above, no matter how many points you have. Paladins and rangers halve their level and eldritch knights and arcane tricksters use one third of their level. A 1st level spell costs 2 points, 3 at 3rd, and then 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 and 11 at 9th level.

New classes & monsters as PCs: No. There is some short advice on how to change classes and how to make new sub-races (eladrin given as an example) and new races (asimar as an example).

Oathbreakers, Blackguards, Anti-Paladins: Oathbreaker paladin and the Death domain are offered as villainous character options. From the description, I would say that Oathbreaker covers blackguard and antipaladin.

Downtime: There are rules for recurring expenses, crafting magical items, building a stronghold, running a business, carousing, selling magic items, gaining renown, performing sacred rites, sowing rumors and training to gain levels. There are some suggestions to create further downtime activities.

Domains: As far as I can see, there are no domains rules.

Tactical combat: There are rules for using squares and hexes which include flanking, more precise rules for cover and facing (the 1-2 diagonal optional rule is also present). Specific combat options that are offered are: climbing on a bigger creature, disarming, marking, overrunning, shoving aside and tumbling. There's also an option for hitting cover (basically the 3e rule). There is a short table for lingering wounds and rules for massive damage and morale.

Other campaign settings (Dragonlance, Greyhawk, etc.): Nothing more that a few mentions.

Player wealth level recommendations: So far, I haven't seen them.

Other villainous character options: No, just those two.

[Oathbreaker paladin and death domain].[/LIST]

Treasure tables: Treasure tables are used according to the CR of the creature.

Gestalt/multiclassing: No gestalt rules or further options for multiclassing.

Creating magic items: The rules are optional. A character needs a formula and possibly special materials and locations (left to the DM). Common items cost 100 GP and require 3rd level; uncommon 500 GP and 3rd level; rare 5,000 GP and 6th level; very rare 50,0000 GP and 11th level; legendary 500,000 GP and 17th level. A day of crafting (8 hours of work) is worth 25 GP of progress. If the item will cast a spell, the spell must be expended every day during the crafting, but of the spell can be cast once (such as a scroll) the spell needs to be expended only one time. Multiple characters that meet the level prerequisite can cooperate, each contributing 25 GP per day and, if needed, spell slots.

Healing potions: Common: 2d4+2, Uncommon: 4d4+4, Rare: 8d4+8, Very Rare: 10d4+20.

Buying magaic items: No specific rules. Just a note that the default is that magic items are not for sale, but this can be changed.

Making monsters/CR: You can either start with an expected CR and look combat stats on a table, or assign stats such as HD and then look up the CR on a table. If you add character levels to a monster, the HD depend on the monster type and not on the class. Also, proficiency bonus depends on CR and not level.

CR math: There is a detailed table bases on combat stats.

Fear/horror: Ravenloft is mentioned. The Domains of Dread are demiplanes, typically reached by the Shadowfell. Fear: make a wisdom save or be frightened for 1 minute. Horror saves are based on charisma. On a failed save a character can become mad with short term insanity, long term and indefinite (reminds me a lot of CoC). Each thype has a table that you can roll on.

Flanking and opportunity attacks: Flanking grants advantage. No mention of OA. If you use facing, a character can only attack frontally and grants advantage to attacks from the rear.

Magical armor/weapons: +3 is the maximum bonus for weapons, armors, shields and ammunition. You can get a "plain" magical shield and it is cumulative with armor. The shield bonus adds to AC.

Marking: You can mark when you make a melee attack. Until the end of your next turn, you gain advantage on opportunity attacks.

Morale: Make morale checks when surprised, reduced to 1/2 HP or when the creature has no way of harming the opposition this round. Make a DC 10 wisdom save.

Critical hits: You can use the lingering wound table when the target is critted, when reduced to 0 HP, or when failing a death save by 5 or more.

Traps: There are a few pages on traps, with several examples and tables that suggest save DC and damage.

Elven chain: I don't remember the rules from the playtest. Elven chain is a +1 chain shirt, which automatically grants proficiency, even of the wearer isn't proficient with medium armor.

Horn of fog: I can't find this item.

Planes: The default assumption is indeed the Great Wheel, with the addition of Feywild, Shadowfell and Far Realm. There are 4 elemental planes, but the border regions (magma, ooze, smoke and ice) are mentioned. The Elemental Chaos is "around" the Elemental Planes. Oddly enough, the Positive and Negative planes are mentioned at the beginning of the section, but they get no description at all.

Ability options: There are rules for granting a flat proficiency with all ability checks of a certain type (str, dex, etc.). There are also suggestions about adding further abilities such as honor or sanity.