Keep in mind one of the main guys bitching is Chocolategravy, who goes by FFSAA on the WOTC boards.  He's never once played 5e, and has no intention of ever playing 5e.  He's 100% devoted to shitting on the edition every day, often multiple times a day on multiple board, and he has alluded to having several alts.

That thread is so tedious to read because of all the whining and crying, so I thought I'd run through it looking at just the posts of the guy who actually has the information and extract what he says (some of this we already knew from the previews, but I'll include it anyway for completeness...

• There are guidelines on how to create new races and sub-races.
• Aasimar (the "how to create a new race" example) get Light as a cantrip at 1st level, Lesser Restoration once per long rest at 3rd level, and Daylight at 5th level.
• There's a optional rule to make short rests 5 mins and long rests 1 hour if you prefer a faster moving game.
• There's an optional spell point system to use instead of spell slots, but you can still only cast one spell each of 6th-9th level per day.
• There are optional "villainous" character sub-classes: the Death domain for clerics and the Oathbreaker paladin type (which is kind of an antipaladin/blackguard).
• There are optional rules for recurring expenses, building a stronghold, running a business, carousing, selling magic items, gaining renown, performing sacred rites, sowing rumors and training to gain levels; but no explicit rules on running a dominion. There are some suggestions to create further downtime activities.
• There are optional rules for using square and hex grids; including flanking (which grants advantage) and facing.
• There are optional combat rules for climbing on a bigger creature, disarming, marking (which grants advantage on opportunity attacks against the marked creature), overrunning, shoving aside and tumbling. There's also an option for hitting cover (basically the 3e rule).
• There are optional rules for lingering wounds, massive damage and morale (a wisdom save in appropriate situations).
• There are random treasure tables, based on the CR of the monster.
• There are optional rules for making magic items. The cost is based on the rarity category of the item, and may or may not require special components at the DM's discretion. There is an option for buying magic items, but no price list for individual items (although a simple one based on rarity could easily be extrapolated from the crafting costs and a mark-up).
• There's a table for CR and expected abilities for monsters. The info on this isn't clear, but I think that it works by having a CR for offensive abilities and one for defensive abilities, and then the two are averaged to find the final CR of the creature and the creature's proficiency bonuses are then worked out from this average CR. It apparently looks reasonably easy to use in reverse starting with a desired CR and working out what the abilities might be.
• There are optional rules for fear and horror checks. The fear checks are wisdom based. The horror checks are charisma based and work a lot like those in Call of Cthulhu with short term and long term insanities.
• The maximum bonus on magic items is +3.
• There are magical shields as well as armour.
• There are a few pages devoted to traps, with some examples.
• There's an optional rule for ditching skills and simply giving proficiency with ability checks based on one or more ability scores.
• There's Elven Chain, which is +1 chain that you don't need proficiency to wear.

Quote from: Mistwell;799858Keep in mind one of the main guys bitching is Chocolategravy, who goes by FFSAA on the WOTC boards.  He's never once played 5e, and has no intention of ever playing 5e.  He's 100% devoted to shitting on the edition every day, often multiple times a day on multiple board, and he has alluded to having several alts.

Things like this make me wish for the old days where you had to pay XXX dollars for each e-mail address. Easy access to various e-mails = easy access to create sockpuppet accounts.

@Blacky:
Thanks for compiling just the facts.

Yeah thanks Blacky!

To add to the list of people who rage against 5e: those who really got righteous about the "consultant-gate" thing. For some, that was boycott-worthy.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;7997964E Essentials was, putatively, designed around an evergreen core. The whole product line collapsed in failure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an evergreen design.

At times I wonder how much of the 4E Essentials product line collapse was due to people who just got "burned out" on the 4E splatbook treadmill.  (I don't know how much the 4E splatbook treadmill was dependent on the hardcore "compulsive completionists").

Back in mid-late 2010, I more or less stopped buying 4E books.  (This was after several previous 4E games collapsed).  At the time, initially I wasn't planning on buying any of the 4E Essentials books.  It wasn't until I started playing in some weekly 4E Encounters games, that I picked up the first few 4E Essentials books (the RC and Heroes of the Fallen Lands + Forgotten Kingdoms).  Though after that, I had no desire to pick up any further 4E Essentials splatbooks at the time.

Quote from: ggroy;799927At times I wonder how much of the 4E Essentials product line collapse was due to people who just got "burned out" on the 4E splatbook treadmill.  (I don't know how much the 4E splatbook treadmill was dependent on the hardcore "compulsive completionists").

Back in mid-late 2010, I more or less stopped buying 4E books.  (This was after several previous 4E games collapsed).  At the time, initially I wasn't planning on buying any of the 4E Essentials books.  It wasn't until I started playing in some weekly 4E Encounters games, that I picked up the first few 4E Essentials books (the RC and Heroes of the Fallen Lands + Forgotten Kingdoms).  Though after that, I had no desire to pick up any further 4E Essentials splatbooks at the time.

The 4E Essentials line weren't splatbooks. They were  meant to replace the core books as the common rules set for new players. They weren't meant to augment the collection of existing 4E players.  The problem was 4E simply didn't have the uptake among new and casual players that WotC had hoped, and the existing player base were almost defiantly stupid about what Essentials was.

If Essentials had been released at the outset of 4E, instead of as a desperate rewind, the 4E system might have gotten a lot more traction. It is a very nice system, and the Essentials books are great products - far more user-friendly that the previous 4E core books.

Regardless, WotC seems to have learned from 4E. Essentials showed the direction they were going to take with 5E - make it easier and more familiar to get into, with a basic core.

Quote from: Haffrung;799930The 4E Essentials line weren't splatbooks. They were  meant to replace the core books as the common rules set for new players. They weren't meant to augment the collection of existing 4E players.  The problem was 4E simply didn't have the uptake among new and casual players that WotC had hoped, and the existing player base were almost defiantly stupid about what Essentials was.

If Essentials had been released at the outset of 4E, instead of as a desperate rewind, the 4E system might have gotten a lot more traction. It is a very nice system, and the Essentials books are great products - far more user-friendly that the previous 4E core books.

Regardless, WotC seems to have learned from 4E. Essentials showed the direction they were going to take with 5E - make it easier and more familiar to get into, with a basic core.

I have to admit I definitely preferred the Essentials version and likely would have bought it IF that is what first came out but by that time they had lost me as a potential customer and no matter what they did I wasn't going to buy a thing and wanted the whole line to die in a fire.

Quote from: Marleycat;799943I have to admit I definitely preferred the Essentials version and likely would have bought it IF that is what first came out but by that time they had lost me as a potential customer and no matter what they did I wasn't going to buy a thing and wanted the whole line to die in a fire.

Similar sentiments here.

I was pretty much burned out on 4E by the end of 2010.

While I liked the base form of 4e just fine, Essentials was a tremendous leap forward in most regards. If only it hadn't skimped so much on the non-combat abilities and tossed away rituals. Seeing wonderful non-combat options on classes like the rogue and wizard really clinches 5e for someone like me.

Quote... and the existing player base were almost defiantly stupid about what Essentials was.

Absolutely. "Less is more" is such an intuitively true statement once you experience its benefits, but humans are instinctively averse to "losing" things, even clutter.

Quote... but no explicit rules on running a dominion.

Aww shucks! Looks like I'll be checking out the Birthright fan forums then.

QuoteThere is an option for buying magic items, but no price list for individual items

Huh, surprising. Guess I'll just keep using the 3e prices for guidelines (I'm running Eberron next, magic item shops are a thing there)

QuoteI've heard some Pathfinder fans bitching about 5e lately...

I've just started noticing this too. I'm surprised it took them this long. Perhaps they've started to feel threatened? That 5e's success so far portends an industry and design paradigm shift that may undermine their preferred playstyle? I have observed some friends/acquaintances ditching Pathfinder with some relief now that something less ponderous and less 4e is available.

Quote from: Haffrung;799930The 4E Essentials line weren't splatbooks. They were  meant to replace the core books as the common rules set for new players. They weren't meant to augment the collection of existing 4E players.  The problem was 4E simply didn't have the uptake among new and casual players that WotC had hoped, and the existing player base were almost defiantly stupid about what Essentials was.

  So I'm not the only one who thought that a lot of people had decided "Essentials is 4.5, and don't confuse us with the facts!" ?

QuoteIf Essentials had been released at the outset of 4E, instead of as a desperate rewind, the 4E system might have gotten a lot more traction. It is a very nice system, and the Essentials books are great products - far more user-friendly that the previous 4E core books.

   I can take either the nicely symmetrical class design of core 4E or the more varied design of Essentials (the one point where the two really don't cohere), but I think the game definitely was presented better the second time around. The inclusion of tokens alone makes a tremendous difference when it comes to the accessibility of the system, IMO--one of the problems with 4E was that it gave the impression of requiring a massive miniatures investment in addition to the core books.

QuoteRegardless, WotC seems to have learned from 4E. Essentials showed the direction they were going to take with 5E - make it easier and more familiar to get into, with a basic core.

  Could have done without them tossing the baby out with the bathwater and going all the way back to Neo-AD&D, based on what I've seen of 5E, but I'm a minority viewpoint, always have been and probably always will be. Glad so many people are enjoying the game; I still think 4E was underappreciated--I know I didn't fully appreciate it for a while after launch--but the market has spoken. Just kindly refrain from issue the "Convert, leave the hobby or die!" fatwas that sometimes seem immanent.

  (And I may yet come around on 5E. What I've seen and heard doesn't sound bad by any means, and I wouldn't turn down a chance to play it. It just doesn't seem worth $100+ when I already own five or six prior editions and two or three variants already. )

I really wish 4e had been accompanied by a continuation of OGL and without all the other WotC business decisions that made me highly inclined to say 'go fuck yourselves, you pin-headed stuffed suits.'

Because what I bumped into 4e looked potentially intriguing, but I wanted a very different modified version of the game, and without OGL I wasn't about to pay WotC money to make the system into what I actually wanted.

The Essentials line managers were idiots.  They turned off the free access to the low level Character Generator right when they launched Essentials.  In a revision to bring in new players, they turned off the path of least resistance.  

Remarkably stupid, they should have all been fired and I believe they mostly were.

Further on to firings, IMO Mearls should be fired for his real world politicization of D&D, but it seems good sales is keeping him flush in influence.  4e also had good sales out the gate, it remains to be seen how 5e will fair long term.      

As to DMing 5e w/o the DMG- why not?  These are/were "Products for your Imagination" not "Your Imagination." You could even download something like OSRIC and kludge it up, or better yet by the acquire Gygax Bible and have at it.

Real world politicization of D&D? What the huh?

Quote from: Will;800036Real world politicization of D&D? What the huh?

I think he means the "oh no, they mentioned non-binary genders and sexualities, think of the childreeen?".

In other words, he's an idiot.