Quote from: Ronin;799555Could be even worst than that. If they got it through say Diamond Comic Distributors. I could see them refuse to ship product or the like. All the sudden its new comic day, and no product. I have visions of nerds with pulls going insane.

As someone who owned a flgs at one point I'm sorry to say diamond couldn't manage to deliver a customer's order even when you're in good standing.   If there was an alternative to diamond they would be out of business.   Truly a piss poor company to deal with.

Quote from: tenbones;799536I honestly don't care about adventures at all. I understand that a lot of people like them, and that cool, I have little use for them.

HOWEVER...

What I'm a little leery with - not sure if I'm okay with it but I'll "wait and see" - is if they take a page out of FFG's book (Edge of the Empire) and they couple new "things" with their adventures - classes and Feats and stuff like that in order to "force" people to buy it. Thus far I think FFG has done a bangup job. Can WotC? Who knows. I hope they don't do it because their track-record has been crappy at it.

Pathfinder has done similar I hope they don't go that way and use the brand to make the real money in other areas like movies etc.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;799589That's nothing. Amazon can't keep the PHB in stock.



  Let's be fair--while the final design wasn't targeting us, the marketing talk, including numerous statements by the design team, was certainly trying to sell to everyone and made grand promises about being something that could satisfy everyone. It's not unfair to be a bit disappointed when those promises aren't kept.

It depends on just how far you have to change the game to satisfy some people.  Converting standard 5e into Pathfinder 2.0 would involve some radical surgery, just like converting standard 5e into a Burning Wheel clone.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;799589Let's be fair--while the final design wasn't targeting us, the marketing talk, including numerous statements by the design team, was certainly trying to sell to everyone and made grand promises about being something that could satisfy everyone. It's not unfair to be a bit disappointed when those promises aren't kept.

True. But Mearls was vauge enough that what is there fits what he said... kinda. And whats not there may be in some extension. A huge chunk of the book seems to be taken up with "How to" pointers rather than extra and optional mechanics. Well see in a few weeks whats that.

Any spoilers that explain how the down-time campaign rules work? That is I'm most into these days.

Quote from: Bunch;799595As someone who owned a flgs at one point I'm sorry to say diamond couldn't manage to deliver a customer's order even when you're in good standing.   If there was an alternative to diamond they would be out of business.   Truly a piss poor company to deal with.

Lemme second that sentiment...dealing with them was such an excruciation.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;799589That's nothing. Amazon can't keep the PHB in stock.



  Let's be fair--while the final design wasn't targeting us, the marketing talk, including numerous statements by the design team, was certainly trying to sell to everyone and made grand promises about being something that could satisfy everyone. It's not unfair to be a bit disappointed when those promises aren't kept.

I think that "the marketing talk" about catering to different styles of play was blown utterly out of proportion by people who wouldn't be satisfied by anything less than a 4E clone.  

The notion that anyone could ever create a "grand" version of D&D that would satisfy "everyone" (including all the hard core long term edition warriors on all sides) is just silly.

What they HAVE done is to incorporate quite a few aspects of 4E into 5th edition, including some aspects of forced movement and it looks as though the DMG will contain rules for grid-based combat as well as "marking." There are certainly going to be many fans of tactical combat depth who will be pleased with the result and not every 4E fan is going to feel betrayed or abused.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;799474I wouldn't worry. Based on initial sales and what I've seen and heard about the future, my guess is that WotC will keep these three books and the screen 'evergreen', put out a product every now and then to keep the brand alive, but use it as a source of IP and brand awareness for other projects and rely largely on fans and licensees to provide support to the RPG side.

Evergreen.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Let us hearken back to dim mists of antiquity (2010-2011). The 4E Redbox and Essentials books, along with the brand new rules compendium were touted as "evergreen" products at the time. Did they even get another print run?

Nope. Not believing it. I am happy with 5E thus far but I don't have any expectations that this edition will live in perpetual print availability any more than any other edition.

Quote from: tenbones;799501The dissatisfaction is purely from noobs who want specific answers that until 5e, they had a table or a chart expressly tell them the answer to: How to measure the CR of a monster, How much gold a PC *should* have by Level, How much a Magic Item is Worth, blah blah blah.

They're looking at the game as mechanical confection rather than a description of how-to rules that you're supposed to make your own at your table.

I have a table full of noobs right now. And their minds are fucking blown that I'm running the game with a PHB and an MM and nothing else. And we have intrigue and politics, and assassins guilds warring in the streets, and kingdoms spreading their imperial clutches over independent city-states through coercion. PC's are working on building their own merchant empires and one is trying to build his own temple dedicated to destroy the very city the temple rests in...

there are no fucking rules for this shit. You just sit down and play. Don't sweat the small shit. It's easy to overthink shit when your imagination has had its balls cut off by the numbers in a chart - as opposed to letting the chart inspire you to do your own thing.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!  

I have no idea why a certain subset of gamers expect a game that is largely imagination based to contain rules as precisely cut and dried as a set of Lego instructions.

Quote from: tenbones;799536What I'm a little leery with - not sure if I'm okay with it but I'll "wait and see" - is if they take a page out of FFG's book (Edge of the Empire) and they couple new "things" with their adventures - classes and Feats and stuff like that in order to "force" people to buy it. Thus far I think FFG has done a bangup job. Can WotC? Who knows. I hope they don't do it because their track-record has been crappy at it.

Be prepared to be disappointed. During the playtest, the 5E developers said that some of the options and modules would probably come in setting and adventure books, not necessarily core books. Which is fine by me. I don't get the 'forced' to buy it mentality. If you're an obsessive who absolutely has to have every feat and mechanical widget available to you, then blame your own lack of self-control when you're out of pocket, not the game publisher.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;799558The people who are complaining about 5e's broken promises are the people whom 5e wasn't targeting in the first place.

Do they want to play Pathfinder?  Great, play Pathfinder.  

Do they want to play 3.x?  Great, play 3.x.

Actually, it's 4E fans who have been pissing and moaning about 5E relentlessly since the playtests.

Quote from: Saplatt;799656I think that "the marketing talk" about catering to different styles of play was blown utterly out of proportion by people who wouldn't be satisfied by anything less than a 4E clone.  

The notion that anyone could ever create a "grand" version of D&D that would satisfy "everyone" (including all the hard core long term edition warriors on all sides) is just silly.

Abso-fucking-lutely. And the 5E haters knew that it was an unachievable goal. They've been sharpening their knives ever since WotC said 5E was going to have broad appeal, because there knew there would always be something left out that they could complain about and claim they were 'betrayed.' It's no surprise whatsoever that people who have never regarded 5E with good faith are moaning about broken promises. It was part of the script all along.

Quote from: Haffrung;799737Be prepared to be disappointed. During the playtest, the 5E developers said that some of the options and modules would probably come in setting and adventure books, not necessarily core books. Which is fine by me. I don't get the 'forced' to buy it mentality. If you're an obsessive who absolutely has to have every feat and mechanical widget available to you, then blame your own lack of self-control when you're out of pocket, not the game publisher.

Oh I'm fully expecting it's probable (if not inevitable). And let's be clear here: if the quality of the book and its content is *GOOD* I'm fine. See: Edge of the Empire. But if you tuck the rules for Psionics or some class that I or my players have an interest in within a shitty adventure specifically just to get you to buy it for the crunch not the adventure - then yeah, we'll have a problem.

As for how/why people buy things. I don't care. Whatever floats your boat and all that.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;799702Evergreen.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Let us hearken back to dim mists of antiquity (2010-2011). The 4E Redbox and Essentials books, along with the brand new rules compendium were touted as "evergreen" products at the time. Did they even get another print run?

  Yes well, barring market collapses, corporate panic attacks, etc.

QuoteNope. Not believing it. I am happy with 5E thus far but I don't have any expectations that this edition will live in perpetual print availability any more than any other edition.

  You may be right about my poor terminology, but I think we're seeing a shift in WotC's approach from the 'continuous output of new material' to 'keep the core on shelves and let everyone else pick up the slack.'

  I think 5E may live longer than expected simply because WotC is reluctant to commit more than the bare minimum of resources to the line.

Quote from: Haffrung;799737Actually, it's 4E fans who have been pissing and moaning about 5E relentlessly since the playtests.

I've heard some Pathfinder fans bitching about 5e lately, so I put them in place of the 4vengers.  The 4venger crowd is akin to shooting fish in a barrel.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;799768I've heard some Pathfinder fans bitching about 5e lately, so I put them in place of the 4vengers.  The 4venger crowd is akin to shooting fish in a barrel.

If I were to make a guess, I'd say 90% of the fervent anti-5e crowd is split equally between the "Everyone must be equal and a special snowflake or it's not fair!  Where is my power to do X?  How can I do X without a power!" 4e crowd and the "combination X, Y, Z break the game!" 3e optimizer crowd.

There were some grognards who were in that hardcore anti-5e mode as well, but most them have mellowed out to more of a "I guess it actually is kinda fun.  Not my favorite, but decent."

Quote from: Exploderwizard;799702Evergreen.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Let us hearken back to dim mists of antiquity (2010-2011). The 4E Redbox and Essentials books, along with the brand new rules compendium were touted as "evergreen" products at the time. Did they even get another print run?

The term "evergreen" here is referring to Ryan Dancey's original plan for 3E featuring a small core of "evergreen" products that are supported by adventure material that isn't kept in print. It's a method of marketing and structuring your product line.

4E Essentials was, putatively, designed around an evergreen core. The whole product line collapsed in failure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an evergreen design.

The evergreen method is most directly contrasted to the "splatbook" model and the "everthing is core" models.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;799796The term "evergreen" here is referring to Ryan Dancey's original plan for 3E featuring a small core of "evergreen" products that are supported by adventure material that isn't kept in print. It's a method of marketing and structuring your product line.

4E Essentials was, putatively, designed around an evergreen core. The whole product line collapsed in failure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an evergreen design.

The evergreen method is most directly contrasted to the "splatbook" model and the "everthing is core" models.

Which is hilarious considering it was I believe Dancy who then turned around and initiated the damn "5 year plan" which has been chugging along since the get go." 3rd ed was obsolete before the ink had dried and 4th ed was slated for 2005 if the suits hadnt paniced and released it early as 3.5.