Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;890759But in 5e's case, the game is built around the assumption of average stats, so what happens when you get 18s and 6s. Just roll with it?

Yes. Why are you so hung up over this?

If you have players who are freaking out because someone has a bonus and they dont then you may want to look a little closer at that player and wether or not you want them as a player at all because that may be the start of the trouble and not the end.

Or just tell everyone to use the array and everyone plays the same race because otherwise you'll have inequality in stat bonuses all over again.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;890759But in 5e's case, the game is built around the assumption of average stats, so what happens when you get 18s and 6s. Just roll with it?

Any multiple-roll-to-generate-stats system is by its very nature going to be built on the assumption of average stats due to the bell curve. AD&D DMG even explained that early on.

With 3d6 the average is 9-12.
With r4h3 that is 11-14
5es array (15 14 13 12 10 seems to be based on the r4h3. Lowest stat is 8. Highest is 15 before racial.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;890759But in 5e's case, the game is built around the assumption of average stats, so what happens when you get 18s and 6s. Just roll with it?

Yes, you just roll with it.

And since the campaign at that point is not AL legal (AL only supports stat array & point buy,) that means you're also not running your campaign to tight parameters. Thus previously assumed CR or XP expectations don't matter because you are not taking the adventure/campaign product on a fixed schedule. Further, given 5e's generous chargen workarounds for character weaknesses (either race bonuses, selective save weakness, feats, Ability Score Increases, etc.) you have a lot of room to "survive" that low stat.

For some tables it matters, because they 'just gotta beat' official products before the next release, keep things 'tourney legal', or anything less than 'epic heroes' is a waste of their playtime. I, and people like me, are not those tables. Badwrongfun, kthxbai, and all that jazz...

Quote from: Omega;890786Yes. Why are you so hung up over this?

If you have players who are freaking out because someone has a bonus and they dont then you may want to look a little closer at that player and wether or not you want them as a player at all because that may be the start of the trouble and not the end.

Or just tell everyone to use the array and everyone plays the same race because otherwise you'll have inequality in stat bonuses all over again.

Because on the one hand everybody talks about like 5e's math is so tightly made to work only around the average scores and that it breaks if you use higher or lower numbers, but then everybody also turns around and says to just use those numbers anyway.

It just seems counterintuitive to say X doesn't work and then recommend doing it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;890891Yes, you just roll with it.

And since the campaign at that point is not AL legal (AL only supports stat array & point buy,) that means you're also not running your campaign to tight parameters. Thus previously assumed CR or XP expectations don't matter because you are not taking the adventure/campaign product on a fixed schedule. Further, given 5e's generous chargen workarounds for character weaknesses (either race bonuses, selective save weakness, feats, Ability Score Increases, etc.) you have a lot of room to "survive" that low stat.

Hmm, that's the opposite of what I always hear though. Normally what people say about 5e is that because there are so few bonuses your initial stat is a huge deal.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;890896Hmm, that's the opposite of what I always hear though. Normally what people say about 5e is that because there are so few bonuses your initial stat is a huge deal.

Your initial stat is a huge deal. Just like it was in all previous editions, too.

But there's a difference between a perceived need ("My fighter just has to have 18/% STR or I'll just scream!"), and a playable mean ("This 5e mod bonus doesn't tie into absolutely everything, so I could survive with a mediocre WIS cleric,").

Perceived need can really shape community theory wank, especially if exacerbated by table demands -- which at times is even "dictated" by other external expectations.

In actual play though things are often very different. There is a reason why the anecdote about "many 18s" PCs dying early in their careers is prosaic. If you only listen to char-gen theorists you presume a character generation game where reaching lvl 20 (or whatever max) is a given. In practice, there are way more factors in an RPG than mere character builds -- in fact, the whole of the game rests between such spreadsheet builds.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;890895Because on the one hand everybody talks about like 5e's math is so tightly made to work only around the average scores and that it breaks if you use higher or lower numbers, but then everybody also turns around and says to just use those numbers anyway.

It just seems counterintuitive to say X doesn't work and then recommend doing it.

Uh? Who is saying this? I am not seeing anyone saying that 5e breaks at the higher scores. Just that you do not neeeeeeed higher scores in anything other than 3-4e.

It is an edge that you can do perfectly fine without. And when rolling stats you MUST accept this as by the very nature of the bell curve the high and low ends of the scores are rare to be ever seen.

Even with r4h3 which nudges the chances a little better towards good rolls, the chance of getting an 18 is only 1.62%., a 17 is 4.17% and a 16 is 7.25%. Your chances of getting a 3 is a mere .08%, a 4 is .31% and a 5 is .77%.
Using  r3. the chance of getting an 18 is .46%, a 17 is 1.39%, and a 16 is 2.78%. Same chances for 3, 4 and 5 respectively.

As mentioned in another thread with is playing 5e. Jannet is the first ever player in all these years I have ever seen potentially roll not one but two 3s for stats had we been using r3. Luckily we were using r4h3 so they werent that bad off. Stats before racial were STR:12, DEX:14, CON:14, INT:6, WIS:4, CHA:9. Final stats 14, 14, 15, 6, 4, 9 and has been doing just fine and in an adventure or two should be about caught up to Kefra and myself. in levels.

Quote from: Omega;890781Use AD&D's DEX then. It is a good median between the narrow and the broad. Or BXs as the bonuses are less.

Some general examples.

5es progression is -4 -3 -3 -2 -2 -1 -1 0 0 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3 +3 +4
BXs progression is -3 -2 -2 -1 -1 -1 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +3
AD&D and 2e DEX -4 -3 -2 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 for example
OD&D CON is  -1 -1 -1 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +1
While OD&D DEX is -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
And OD&D CHA is -2 -2 -1 -1 0 0 0 0 0 0 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +4
And nothing for STR or DEX.

Familiar with all of them. Planning on using the B/X progression in an M20 version of the system.

Glancing through 2e. That presented 6 different methods.

Method 1: 3d6 in order.
Method 2: 3d6 twice for each stat. Choose one of the two for each.
Method 3: 3d6 and assign.
Method 4: 3d6 twelve times, assign hightest six.
Method 5: 4d6 keep highest 3, assign.
Method 6: All stats start at 8. Roll seven dice and assign each roll as desired, even to the same stat. 18 max.

Skills & Powers added 3 more. (And a tenth tied into the Character Point system)

Method 7: 75 points to assign to stats. 3 to 18.
Method 8: Assign 24 dice between stats, minimum of three each and then roll and keep highest 3 of each.
Method 9: roll 2d6 and check table for how many points can assign to stats and the max a stat can be. 3 minimum.
Roll Points Max
  2    68   18
  3    70   18
  4    72   17
  5    72   18
  6    74   17
  7    74   18
  8    76   17
  9    76   16
 10    78   16
 11    78   15
 12    80   15

Observation. Method 7 seems a bit overpowered. You can generate with it a character with the following stats. 18, 18, 18, 15, 3, 3. Maybe lower the points to 63?

AD&D also had these two that werent in 2e.
Method 3: 3d6 six times for each stat in order, keep highest for each.
Method 4: 3d6 in order. Generate 12 characters. Choose one.

The B/X progression is the correct one.