Quote from: APN;548049I don't see why the hobby needs D&D to be successful anyway, when the choice of game right now is massive, far bigger than its ever been. Getting hold of out of print stuff is reasonably easy, sometimes expensive, but more and more is turning up in PDF and print on demand or on kickstarter.

So some people want to hate D&D 5e before it's come out? That's their loss (I'm sure it'll play well and please a lot of people) but whilst D&D will remain the best known name in the RPG industry, it might not be the biggest game, which is partly a problem of its own making with the edition glut since 2000 or so 3e, 3.5e, 4e, essentials, next year 5e...

Choice of game is nice, but it's not everything.  If I had an easier time convincing people these days to play Ars Magica or Pendragon, I doubt I'd ever play D&D to be honest.

Quote from: Dog Quixote;548051Choice of game is nice, but it's not everything.  If I had an easier time convincing people these days to play Ars Magica or Pendragon, I doubt I'd ever play D&D to be honest.

Exactly!

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;547934I could care less about 4E bits. I care about the style of game the 4E system allowed us to play, in a big picture sense. Given this past Saturday's playtest, 5E failed to deliver in a big fashion, to the point where I'm not seeing how they could manage to get there given their current direction. It doesnt matter how many 4E bits they include if they fail in the big picture sense.

So how can 5E deliver the style of play you want in the big picture sense while still providing a style of play that others want too?

5E is not for the "legions" of 4E fans. 4E fans have actual 4E.

5E is not for the "legions" of old schoolers. The old guard has their TSR editions and numerous retroclones.

5E is trying to give something to the moderate element of both groups. Extremists from either camp will not get everything they are looking for. Thats how it is.

The fundamental difference is in the attitude toward the industry, the games, and the designers. Old schoolers are hobbyists. We putter and tinker with stuff until we have what we want. If some jackass out in Renton doesn't have a clue about what we want in our games, big deal. We tweak it or play something else and move on.

Some of the new school crowd are members of "the cult of the official". HERE WE ARE NOW, ENTERTAIN US! The rules created by the designers must be flawlessly balanced. God forbid anyone should have to think for themselves. Of couse its perfectly logical that some dweeb in the head office knows more about what I want in a game than I do. He's a professional after all.

So I can kind of understand why the official cultists get their panties twisted in a bigger wad than hobbyists when the design direction doesn't cater to their every whim. They need the official playstyle to cater to them far more than we do because thinking for themselves is such a fucking chore.

Quote from: B.T.;548001God forbid.

It's funny--and by "funny," I mean "predictable"--how TCO comes in here and shits up the entire thread until it's focused around his stupidity.  

Irony overload

Oh well, just another fucktard D&D wanna be version.

I won't be buying it, 5E can eat me.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;547934I could care less about 4E bits. I care about the style of game the 4E system allowed us to play, in a big picture sense. Given this past Saturday's playtest, 5E failed to deliver in a big fashion, to the point where I'm not seeing how they could manage to get there given their current direction. It doesnt matter how many 4E bits they include if they fail in the big picture sense.

What, not tabletop WoW enough for you?

Quote from: Melan;548046The greatest immediate danger to our hobby is self-hate. The greatest long-term one is disinterest.

I am coming to the belief that 50% of the most interesting/most useful posts go by most of the frothing multitudes.
So consider this a +1.

Quote from: Dog Quixote;548051Choice of game is nice, but it's not everything.  If I had an easier time convincing people these days to play Ars Magica or Pendragon, I doubt I'd ever play D&D to be honest.

And that is not even always true. I've never had a single problem getting people toplay any other thing than D&D. Actually, it's harder to get people around here interested in D&D than in any other game.

Quote from: Imperator;548412And that is not even always true. I've never had a single problem getting people toplay any other thing than D&D. Actually, it's harder to get people around here interested in D&D than in any other game.

Likewise in France. Getting people to play AD&D in the area where I come from can be daunting (you do find players, but you have to search for them and know the layout of the clubs, gaming groups etc of the area).

Quote from: Dog Quixote;548051If I had an easier time convincing people these days to play Ars Magica or Pendragon, I doubt I'd ever play D&D to be honest.

The best way to play the games you want is not to form game groups from people who already are gamers or post some ads or whatnot. It's to actually create your own gaming group including a large number of newbies. From there, you can get to play games that hopefully will please everyone without facing some of the usual gamer preconceptions.

Plus, you actually have a better shot at getting a great campaign off the ground. Not because newbies are superior or gamers suck, or vice versa, but because, since you are dealing with less expectations on the players part, you may have an easier time building the group spirit and cooperative dynamic on which a great campaign has to be built.

Quote from: Dog Quixote;548051Choice of game is nice, but it's not everything.  If I had an easier time convincing people these days to play Ars Magica or Pendragon, I doubt I'd ever play D&D to be honest.

Quote from: Imperator;548412And that is not even always true. I've never had a single problem getting people toplay any other thing than D&D. Actually, it's harder to get people around here interested in D&D than in any other game.

I hate to say it, but I've found it much easier to get Players when I don'yt use the name D&D. A lot of people do enjoy Star Wars at the pub, though.

Quote from: Benoist;548420Likewise in France. Getting people to play AD&D in the area where I come from can be daunting (you do find players, but you have to search for them and know the layout of the clubs, gaming groups etc of the area).

Really? Weird.

According to people who actually go there, my local club has more AD&D games than 4th, although 3rd is by far the most popular.

This may have changed with the 3rd ed boom. I know there's been a D&D revival of late in France. From what I gather both Pathfinder and 4e have strong followings there, for instance. Whether in the past ten years AD&D itself has made a come back of sorts, I do not know, but back when I lived there, there was a HUGE assumption from a majority of gamers 'raised' on CoC/BRP games (via Oriflam and Descartes Editeur) and Vampire the Masquerade that AD&D was an obsolete game that only brain-damaged people would want to play again.

Quote from: Benoist;548420Likewise in France. Getting people to play AD&D in the area where I come from can be daunting (you do find players, but you have to search for them and know the layout of the clubs, gaming groups etc of the area).

Quote from: Benoist;548429This may have changed with the 3rd ed boom. I know there's been a D&D revival of late in France. From what I gather both Pathfinder and 4e have strong followings there, for instance. Whether in the past ten years AD&D itself has made a come back of sorts, I do not know, but back when I lived there, there was a HUGE assumption from a majority of gamers 'raised' on CoC/BRP games (via Oriflam and Descartes Editeur) and Vampire the Masquerade that AD&D was an obsolete game that only brain-damaged people would want to play again.

I would say that around here 3rd ed definitely boosted again D&D's popularity but, AFAIK, D&D has never been the top-dog in the Spanish scene. RuneQuest, CoC, Elric or Vampire (amongst several others) have been hugely influential, and frankly, you don't find that common identification of RPG = D&D.

But maybe the situation here is really weird. I mean, people started taking D&D seriously with 3rd because in 3rd the game started including things like, you know, skills. Those things that most other RPGs have had since, like, forever

Quote from: Imperator;548412And that is not even always true. I've never had a single problem getting people toplay any other thing than D&D. Actually, it's harder to get people around here interested in D&D than in any other game.

I use my own ruleset.  
If you can convince people to play a game they have never seen or can't buy, convincing them to play one they can read about becomes easy.

(*and yet, we have 2 live groups and 1 online one, and a waiting list)