is ourselves.  I haven't seen so many intellectually dishonest people ranting about non-issues since I drove by a Rick Perry rally.  Most people don't even bother to read stuff before bitching about it.

For example, recently WoTC released the hook horror right up, and it essentially has gone like this on every forum that's discussing it:

Mearls "This is just a brief outline, some ideas, and concepts we're thinking about:  

blah blah blah.."

Nerd Ragers: "OMFG!  WTF!  That is garbage!  It's missing cool things!  It's missing mechanics!  How am I supposed to know what an impale means, or if it requires one hook or two!"  (well, in his write up he states that a hook which impales a creature cannot attack, so it implies that it only needs one hook to impale and not both.  Not to mention he said it was only a rough draft and not a complete write up already.

--or--

"They're (WoTC) are all liars anyway because they refuse to let anything that resembles 4e into their little retroclone that panders to the grognards."

Um, I'd say HD (Healing surges) and At-Wills are most definitely 4e influenced.

At this point I'm getting the feeling that we're all doomed as an industry because no one wants to act like an adult and would rather whine like a bunch of 5 year olds who aren't getting exactly their way.  It's nothing but a bunch of dishonest bitching.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;547861At this point I'm getting the feeling that we're all doomed as an industry because no one wants to act like an adult and would rather whine like a bunch of 5 year olds who aren't getting exactly their way.  It's nothing but a bunch of dishonest bitching.

Nothing new here really.

Same type of bitching when it comes to other franchises like Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, X-Files, etc ... and most other sci-fi/fantasy franchises.

Quote from: ggroy;547862Nothing new here really.

Same type of bitching when it comes to other franchises like Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, X-Files, etc ... and most other sci-fi/fantasy franchises.

As well as most other sports and human endeavours... and yet we persevere, somehow pulling gold from the clay.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;547861At this point I'm getting the feeling that we're all doomed as an industry because no one wants to act like an adult and would rather whine like a bunch of 5 year olds who aren't getting exactly their way.  It's nothing but a bunch of dishonest bitching.

This has almost become human nature regarding just about any topic.

What's laughable is that people expect fully finished things when we are talking about an alpha stage game. For example they flat out tell everyone that the fighter is at the most basic and all we get is bitching on how it has nothing. That's the point, they want the baseline correct before they add all the bells and whistles. Same with the monsters.

Well, who is to blame? George Lucas, Jar Jar Binks or all the people who did not like Episode I? Really? You blame it on the people?

Only because I like A New Hope does NOT mean I have to like Phantom Menace, nor do I have to pretend one second "Midi Chloreans" are anything but a GIANT FART in MY FACE!!!

Same with 4e and all ruckus that came after it.

Man up, there is objective good and bad out there. And 4e, as well as phantom menace, is objectively bad in many ways.

NB: objective does not equal absolute, mind you

Lets not forget this is a hobbyist market, and one that has a lot of long time investors/early adopters.

A lot of people feel that if they've put in X # of years into anything, they automatically understand the business end of it, even if they have no experience whatsoever with any form of business.

Same thing with putting in X # of years is the sense that the more you've put in, the righter you are. Counter to that, our hobby is odder than most because so many do agree that rules are more guidelines than rules.

People who have an obsessive interest though can be excellent customers, even though they can be irritating. Im sure you all know examples other than our hobby ;-)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;547861is ourselves.  I haven't seen so many intellectually dishonest people ranting about non-issues since I drove by a Rick Perry rally.  Most people don't even bother to read stuff before bitching about it.

For example, recently WoTC released the hook horror right up, and it essentially has gone like this on every forum that's discussing it:

Mearls "This is just a brief outline, some ideas, and concepts we're thinking about:  

blah blah blah.."

Nerd Ragers: "OMFG!  WTF!  That is garbage!  It's missing cool things!  It's missing mechanics!  How am I supposed to know what an impale means, or if it requires one hook or two!"  (well, in his write up he states that a hook which impales a creature cannot attack, so it implies that it only needs one hook to impale and not both.  Not to mention he said it was only a rough draft and not a complete write up already.

--or--

"They're (WoTC) are all liars anyway because they refuse to let anything that resembles 4e into their little retroclone that panders to the grognards."

Um, I'd say HD (Healing surges) and At-Wills are most definitely 4e influenced.

At this point I'm getting the feeling that we're all doomed as an industry because no one wants to act like an adult and would rather whine like a bunch of 5 year olds who aren't getting exactly their way.  It's nothing but a bunch of dishonest bitching.

God forbid they make something the 4E community might want to play.

#humandiscourse #1stworldproblems

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;547886God forbid they make something the 4E community might want to play.

You people wrecked the hobby, this is objectively true.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;547886God forbid they make something the 4E community might want to play.

It just seems the 4E community is the hardest to get on with these days.

Quote from: Settembrini;547883Well, who is to blame? George Lucas, Jar Jar Binks or all the people who did not like Episode I? Really? You blame it on the people?

Only because I like A New Hope does NOT mean I have to like Phantom Menace, nor do I have to pretend one second "Midi Chloreans" are anything but a GIANT FART in MY FACE!!!

Same with 4e and all ruckus that came after it.

Man up, there is objective good and bad out there. And 4e, as well as phantom menace, is objectively bad in many ways.

NB: objective does not equal absolute, mind you

Star Wars really isn't a niche nerd thing, though (although it's starting to become one).  It's a lot easier for Lucas to go "Fuck you I do what I want" than some tabletop developer.

For a better analogue, take a look at the video-game industry in Japan.  The only way to make easy money in such small markets is by catering to the hardcore, but in doing so they've all but cut themselves off from the native mainstream and are slowly shrinking the international market for their creative output (while American and European developers are dominating), and are also lightyears behind the West in terms of actual progress in game design because they attached a stigma to our games, and only now are companies like Square investing in Western developers.

JRPGs used to be hard-hitting commercial releases.  Now they're just barely detectable blips.

Basically, in smaller industries, the feedback loop from fandom->creator is a hell of a lot stronger, and I don't think we can just blame developers in our case.  The hardcore make up such a large percentage of the active/long-term fanbase that we've basically got them captive.

Quote from: Marleycat;547881What's laughable is that people expect fully finished things when we are talking about an alpha stage game. For example they flat out tell everyone that the fighter is at the most basic and all we get is bitching on how it has nothing. That's the point, they want the baseline correct before they add all the bells and whistles. Same with the monsters.

You're right, there are people coming in thinking "playtesting! yay! I can play this game months before it's released!"... and when they find out that there's a reason it's many months away from release, because it's not finished and needs testing, they're getting upset. Playtesting isn't play, it's work.

Quote from: Marleycat;547881What's laughable is that people expect fully finished things when we are talking about an alpha stage game. For example they flat out tell everyone that the fighter is at the most basic and all we get is bitching on how it has nothing. That's the point, they want the baseline correct before they add all the bells and whistles. Same with the monsters.

It being a playtest, being unhappy with the current state of things isn't necessarily a big deal, but being unhappy with the direction they seem to be taking is kind of a big deal.

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;547898It being a playtest, being unhappy with the current state of things isn't necessarily a big deal, but being unhappy with the direction they seem to be taking is kind of a big deal.

*sniff*