A long rest can involve light activity including normal travel and is not interrupted by heavy activity of less than an hour duration.

A lot of discussion is about encounter balance - but a big factor for me is believability and simulation. Healing all wounds with a single night's rest without magic always felt weird to me - and I like the week-long recovery better on these grounds.

However, over a week, the all-or-nothing aspect of long rest seems even more arbitrary. I would prefer if there was some benefit to five days of rest, or other variations. I can deal with some all-or-nothing for magical effects, but non-magical recovery especially should be spread out.

Quote from: S'mon;1054326One thing I do is have long rests always be between sessions and the session almost always ends with a long rest. I use real time equal game time in most games as Gygax  advised and players know there is no LR until end of session.

There is no LR in enemy fortress. If you run the kind of game that needs that then this approach is not suitable. Personally I think it is silly and I would rather avoid that sort of adventure.

I see what you're saying - but in the real world, there are cases where soldiers are in enemy territory, and barricade or dig themselves in, then try to rest and eat before sallying out again.

If you're in the middle of an enemy stronghold, then it may make sense to rest there rather than leave the fortress. Leaving the stronghold doesn't guarantee that you are safe, after all - so making a long retreat out to an outside campsite might just make you more vulnerable to enemy attacks - both on the road and at your campsite.

I think if the results of rest are more believable, then the actions will be more believable.

Quote from: jhkim;1054380I see what you're saying - but in the real world, there are cases where soldiers are in enemy territory, and barricade or dig themselves in, then try to rest and eat before sallying out again.

In that kind of game, the effects of a short rest are a fairly decent fit.  A long rest is getting back to almost full health (by default).

I am more in line with jhkim's preference in Long Rest (LR) healing not having full recover. Easiest fix for me is removing that function from LR entirely and relying on 1/2 HD recover. Lengthening the SR/LR economy works, but it tends to push some tables into too high conservation mode; adventures become novas or nothing. When SR classes can cash in heavily by spamming SR, they provide enough stress to push otherwise turtling parties into taking more risks.

(As for it keeping the spell economy of LR classes *shrug* that's an issue of you managing how much magic you like in a campaign. e.g. Since I *like* varying "Fog of War" initiative, I also *like* spell interruption. When spells are declared at the top of the round, but can be lost if you are successfully hit before your turn, suddenly all those spell slots are not as much as previously felt. Magic Missile and Shield suddenly become forefront dueling spells, too.)

However you may want to slow down magical healing even more, and I find attaching Healing Spells to Hit Dice (a healing spell uses up a Hit Die in 1:1 ratio) works. Yes, this makes Fighters Second Wind even more powerful, and makes Life Cleric Channel Divinity features stronger. But it goes toward simulating an environment where these class features can penetrate and hold deep enemy territory moreso than other classes.

Again, 5e has a solid chassis in which to fuck around the parameters moreso than previous WotC offerings. It's plucking out the raisins from the raisin bread, so to speak, but easier to do than removing the gluten or HFCS...

Quote from: S'mon;1054326One thing I do is have long rests always be between sessions and the session almost always ends with a long rest. I use real time equal game time in most games as Gygax  advised and players know there is no LR until end of session.

There is no LR in enemy fortress. If you run the kind of game that needs that then this approach is not suitable. Personally I think it is silly and I would rather avoid that sort of adventure.

Well, specifically, what happened was they infiltrated a town run by cultists of Bane, an enemy of the party. They got weapons searched and were let on through. It's a kind of dictatorship that's strict and oppressive but won't mess with you if you lay low. They are in dire need of a rest.

Normally, they'd have to stay here a week.

But these are PCs, so naturally within the first hour of entering the town they've already gotten themselves into trouble that will likely cause the town guard to chase after them when they find out they are resting in bed at the local inn.

What they did was use the Friends spell on the inn keeper to ignore their obvious mistakes in trying to hide their identity. Unfortunately, when the Friends spell wears off, the target realizes they were charmed.

Hmmm, this sequence is in a new phase of the game, so maybe it is a good time to switch over to the standard 8 hour LR for this one.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1054443I am more in line with jhkim's preference in Long Rest (LR) healing not having full recover. Easiest fix for me is removing that function from LR entirely and relying on 1/2 HD recover. Lengthening the SR/LR economy works, but it tends to push some tables into too high conservation mode; adventures become novas or nothing. When SR classes can cash in heavily by spamming SR, they provide enough stress to push otherwise turtling parties into taking more risks.

(As for it keeping the spell economy of LR classes *shrug* that's an issue of you managing how much magic you like in a campaign. e.g. Since I *like* varying "Fog of War" initiative, I also *like* spell interruption. When spells are declared at the top of the round, but can be lost if you are successfully hit before your turn, suddenly all those spell slots are not as much as previously felt. Magic Missile and Shield suddenly become forefront dueling spells, too.)

However you may want to slow down magical healing even more, and I find attaching Healing Spells to Hit Dice (a healing spell uses up a Hit Die in 1:1 ratio) works. Yes, this makes Fighters Second Wind even more powerful, and makes Life Cleric Channel Divinity features stronger. But it goes toward simulating an environment where these class features can penetrate and hold deep enemy territory moreso than other classes.

Again, 5e has a solid chassis in which to fuck around the parameters moreso than previous WotC offerings. It's plucking out the raisins from the raisin bread, so to speak, but easier to do than removing the gluten or HFCS...

Hmm, what if a LR recovered one hit die per rest...? Or would that be too slow? Or maybe it recovers an average amount based on the one hit die... so a d6 hit die recovers 4 hp + CON a day, etc.

How does that healing spell = hit die work? Healing spells tend to use their own dice so I am curious.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054527Hmm, what if a LR recovered one hit die per rest...? Or would that be too slow? Or maybe it recovers an average amount based on the one hit die... so a d6 hit die recovers 4 hp + CON a day, etc.

How does that healing spell = hit die work? Healing spells tend to use their own dice so I am curious.

Hit Dice are a pretty solid idea for a separate economy pool. I hated the Healing Surge idea in 4e because it was too divorced from known values; it was a class+level derived value that you had to look up how many you got, whereas 5e HD simplify looking it up. Also, 4e ended up helping HP bloating mid-battle, which I thought 5e Short Rests were a clever limiter.

That said, reconceived as a new resource pool derived from level, it's interesting design ground -- to exploit or ignore as your table needs. Funny how a little shift can change everything into someone's Goldilocks Zone.

Since HD usage is limited by rests in general (SR/LR), and HD regen is limited to only LR, you have indeed discovered the "Secret Powah of Adjusting Natural Healing Rates!" Congratulations! It is only 'too slow' for what your table needs are; for some it will mimic their desired Fantasy Fucking Vietnam excellently. Level still matters because it becomes the size of the HD reservoir, but overall the slower rate of refill means greater danger. (It also makes repeating damage, "DOTs," far scarier. So you can make longer lasting poisons and curses be terrifying drains on reserves.)

Good job, good job!

As for 'Healing Spell = Hit Die', it's as it says on the tin. The healing spell runs off of its own dice values, but each targeting costs a HD from the target's HD pool. This mainly makes spells like Healing Word less spammable beyond avoiding death because most people would rather get their "larger than a d4" Hit Die worth of healing after the battle. (And treat Healing Spirit's repeated healing as ticking off a HD per round.)

May be to one's table preference or not, but is another way to use the Hit Dice pool as a campaign mechanic. Again, strong, flexible chassis, takes a bit of imagination & tinkering.

So a healing spell that heals 2d8 + spell modifier, would have you pay 2 hit die to get it?

What if you have no hit die left but someone wants to heal you?

Quote from: jhkim;1054380I see what you're saying - but in the real world, there are cases where soldiers are in enemy territory, and barricade or dig themselves in, then try to rest and eat before sallying out again.

Yes. That would be a "short rest".

A short rest is what you get in the shell crater during a pause in the attack. A long rest is what you get back behind the lines after they pull your division out of the fight. At least that's how I run it.

IMC if PCs have an interrupted long rest I'll give back one hp per level per day, 3e style. But almost always they get to complete a LR. It's more a pacing thing so if it's 6 or 8 days between sessions it's still a LR. Main thing is no LR during the session.

Quote from: jhkimI see what you're saying - but in the real world, there are cases where soldiers are in enemy territory, and barricade or dig themselves in, then try to rest and eat before sallying out again.

Quote from: S'mon;1054593Yes. That would be a "short rest".

A short rest is what you get in the shell crater during a pause in the attack. A long rest is what you get back behind the lines after they pull your division out of the fight. At least that's how I run it.

IMC if PCs have an interrupted long rest I'll give back one hp per level per day, 3e style. But almost always they get to complete a LR. It's more a pacing thing so if it's 6 or 8 days between sessions it's still a LR. Main thing is no LR during the session.

If that works for you, that's fine.

Personally, I would prefer to have a clear in-game-world criteria, that ideally doesn't have an artificial-feeling binary line between short and long. My D&D sessions sometimes involve a week or more go by during one session - if the characters are involved in long overland travel, or some other long-term project.

For example, my last D&D campaign was a post-fantasy-apocalypse, and for a time the players joined up with a larger group trying to form a community of survivors in the Underdark. There were two or three sessions of events during community-building where weeks were going by - but that still involved regular raids from monsters on the survivors. During a post-apocalyptic scenario like Walking Dead, there isn't a clear division between safe town and enemy territory. That's the point of the genre, actually. I was using standard long rest rules, but as usual it did grate some on my suspension of disbelief.

Also, I think by a standard implied by the war example above, the first dozen sessions of that campaign wouldn't have had any long rest - because the characters were continually fleeing the ongoing apocalypse.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054559So a healing spell that heals 2d8 + spell modifier, would have you pay 2 hit die to get it?

What if you have no hit die left but someone wants to heal you?

You are stuck on thinking about dice for dice and not reading my words. Each spell's targeting consumes a (single) Hit Die. One healing at instant speed -- regardless of dice expression -- costs one Hit Die.

So "Healing Word" is 1d4+Mod = 1 HD. "Greater Cure Wounds" is 2d8+Mod = 1 HD. "Healing Spirit" is 2d8+Mod per round = 1 HD per round. Each targeting Costs a Hit Die.

Can't pay the cost? No healing.

Maybe it seems self-evident to me because I am familiar with CCGs and used.to such thinking and phrasing. But does it make sense now?

Quote from: Opaopajr;1054636You are stuck on thinking about dice for dice and not reading my words. Each spell's targeting consumes a (single) Hit Die. One healing at instant speed -- regardless of dice expression -- costs one Hit Die.

So "Healing Word" is 1d4+Mod = 1 HD. "Greater Cure Wounds" is 2d8+Mod = 1 HD. "Healing Spirit" is 2d8+Mod per round = 1 HD per round. Each targeting Costs a Hit Die.

Can't pay the cost? No healing.

Maybe it seems self-evident to me because I am familiar with CCGs and used.to such thinking and phrasing. But does it make sense now?

Oh no I get it. I just tend to approach things from an in-universe perspective first -- so I was trying to think how this would make sense in-story.

Your healing spell is working fine... but then it's not. I like it when we can make an explanation for that or it doesn't seem too counterintuitive.

Quote from: jhkim;1054611If that works for you, that's fine.

Personally, I would prefer to have a clear in-game-world criteria, that ideally doesn't have an artificial-feeling binary line between short and long. My D&D sessions sometimes involve a week or more go by during one session - if the characters are involved in long overland travel, or some other long-term project.

For example, my last D&D campaign was a post-fantasy-apocalypse, and for a time the players joined up with a larger group trying to form a community of survivors in the Underdark. There were two or three sessions of events during community-building where weeks were going by - but that still involved regular raids from monsters on the survivors. During a post-apocalyptic scenario like Walking Dead, there isn't a clear division between safe town and enemy territory. That's the point of the genre, actually. I was using standard long rest rules, but as usual it did grate some on my suspension of disbelief.

Also, I think by a standard implied by the war example above, the first dozen sessions of that campaign wouldn't have had any long rest - because the characters were continually fleeing the ongoing apocalypse.

If I were doing that campaign grim  and gritty then 1 week LR would be ideal. If more superhero feel then overnight OK.

I do sometimes run long quests or delves multi session with no long rest but that is more a high level thing.

For a zombie apocalypse genre game I would not use 5e or 4e or 3e dnd though. Not the right feel.

Quote from: S'mon;1054654If I were doing that campaign grim  and gritty then 1 week LR would be ideal. If more superhero feel then overnight OK.

I do sometimes run long quests or delves multi session with no long rest but that is more a high level thing.

For a zombie apocalypse genre game I would not use 5e or 4e or 3e dnd though. Not the right feel.

For clarification, this wasn't a zombie apocalypse - it was a dragon apocalypse. The concept was that an unexplained horde of dragons begin sweeping the surface of the world of Faerun. People are thus forced into caves and dungeons to survive. So you have adventurers leading the way into dungeons - but not to loot them, but rather clear them and find or make a place to live. I felt it was pretty appropriate for D&D, and 5e worked at least reasonably well for it, I felt.

Quote from: S'mon;1054326One thing I do is have long rests always be between sessions and the session almost always ends with a long rest. I use real time equal game time in most games as Gygax  advised and players know there is no LR until end of session.

There is no LR in enemy fortress. If you run the kind of game that needs that then this approach is not suitable. Personally I think it is silly and I would rather avoid that sort of adventure.

For me, the long rest depends on having somewhere suitably restful, not the duration. No long rests in the dungeon or in other hostile and inhospitable places, even if they're not heavily populated. Even with Leomund's Tiny Hut or Daern's Instant Fortress available.

In The Hobbit, I think Bilbo and the dwarfs only had long rests when they were somewhere secure and welcomed by whoever secured it - Elrond's, Beorn's and Laketown. When the dwarfs were captured by the wood elves, I do not think Bilbo could get a long rest even invisible - the threat of being discovered would negate any potential for rest. (It's hard to judge, since Bilbo and the dwarfs have nothing like spell slots to recover and Tolkien forgot to detail the exact resting rules in the appendices.) The rest in Moria in The Fellowship of the Ring looks more like "avoid level of exhaustion" and not "regain Gandalf's spell slots".

But specific 5e adventures make allowing such a long rest necessary; I cannot imagine a party of the indicated levels that could make it through the Tomb of Annihilation dungeon without a long rest, but you can't leave the dungeon. We're currently using one long rest per finished level of the dungeon.

Quote from: S'mon;1054327A long rest can involve light activity including normal travel and is not interrupted by heavy activity of less than an hour duration.

I dislike the interruption rules that seem intended to make it almost impossible to derail a long rest.

These two posts seem inconsistent; if a long rest is almost uninterruptible and includes normal travel and heavy activity of less than an hour duration, how is it silly to think you could do this in an enemy fortress, if you can hide or barricade yourself away for long enough? Or did you only mean a sufficiently populated and patrolled fortress where you'd inevitably have to fight and defeat everyone there before a long rest would end?

Quote from: Opaopajr;1054547Since HD usage is limited by rests in general (SR/LR), and HD regen is limited to only LR, you have indeed discovered the "Secret Powah of Adjusting Natural Healing Rates!" Congratulations! It is only 'too slow' for what your table needs are; for some it will mimic their desired Fantasy Fucking Vietnam excellently. Level still matters because it becomes the size of the HD reservoir, but overall the slower rate of refill means greater danger. (It also makes repeating damage, "DOTs," far scarier. So you can make longer lasting poisons and curses be terrifying drains on reserves.)

Good job, good job!

As for 'Healing Spell = Hit Die', it's as it says on the tin. The healing spell runs off of its own dice values, but each targeting costs a HD from the target's HD pool. This mainly makes spells like Healing Word less spammable beyond avoiding death because most people would rather get their "larger than a d4" Hit Die worth of healing after the battle. (And treat Healing Spirit's repeated healing as ticking off a HD per round.)

May be to one's table preference or not, but is another way to use the Hit Dice pool as a campaign mechanic. Again, strong, flexible chassis, takes a bit of imagination & tinkering.

Do you extend this to healing potions? You seemed to exclude the Life Cleric's Channel Divinity earlier; no mention of the Paladin's healing power. How do you handle the Goodberry spell? I'd exclude it, on the basis that it requires an action per HP (no, I won't allow Life Clerics to boost the healing per berry but they could get extra berries).

On the "out of HD" question, I think I would still allow healing to bring an unconscious character back to 1HP even if otherwise it would not be effective. But I like characters jumping back into the fight.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1054638Oh no I get it. I just tend to approach things from an in-universe perspective first -- so I was trying to think how this would make sense in-story.

Your healing spell is working fine... but then it's not. I like it when we can make an explanation for that or it doesn't seem too counterintuitive.

A high level Battlemaster Fighter already has multiple meters that can independently show up as empty: HPs, Hit Dice, Superiority Dice, Second Wind, Action Surge, Indomitable (and maybe more for certain feats). None of these strike me as intrinsically magical (where it's easier to rationalize). Do you have any difficulties with those other abilities working and then not? And this is only using an existing meter, Hit Dice; the explanation is that healing magic works with the target's ability to heal in a short rest (which is what Hit Dice represents) and has no effect if the target has exhausted that capacity, the reserves that are not HP but can be converted into HP. So it means the same thing as coming into a short rest with no Hit Dice; you get no healing, because you have no reserves to draw on (whether brought forth by the short rest or by the spell).