Ok we have some Grade-A Geographical and Meterological crazyasses among us, so if Mount Hotenow erupted with Pyroclastic Lava Flows 30 years ago, is there the smallest chance in hell that the Neverwinter area looks like it does in the Starter Set 30 years later?
Spoilered to not break page, or give spoilers.
Spoiler
(http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62191&d=1403000831)
I doubt those forests would be as close to the volcano as they look, as for the lava flow at a guess it went down the side with the hills in front hence why they are brownish looking, not sure how badly it erupted though so a 30 year timeframe may not be so bad....plus the realms are a highly magical setting so 'a wizard made things better' would work as an excuse for not doing research in this case.
Interesting question, and immediately thought about Mt. St. Helens. Seems to be stuff on it:
Mount St. Helens, Recovering 30 Years Later (http://www.livescience.com/6450-mount-st-helens-recovering-30-years.html)
Apparently different aspects of the volcanic eruption, along with terrain and ecosystem, affected the rate of recovery. Shorter answer, faster than was previously assumed overall, yet still at different rates.
edit: assuming same pyroclastic flow for both, the area affected would be one hex. other effects, like ash plume and mudslides, would affect other hexes in different sizes, and might not be all that far off.
Did the lava flow actually make it to Neverwinter city itself? Or was it just the quakes that did damage? How big or violent an eruption was it?
According to the Forgotten Realms wiki, it destroyed much of Neverwinter and killed thousands. The 4e Neverwinter book says that a chasm appeared in the southeast portion of the city that spawns monstrosities but the other 3 portions look relatively intact. i tend to favor the 4e Neverwinter book as more reliable.
Quote from: Omega;790178Did the lava flow actually make it to Neverwinter city itself? Or was it just the quakes that did damage? How big or violent an eruption was it?
No reports of lava at all that I saw, but the ash did corrupt the village of Thundertree, according to the Lost Mine of Phandelver in the Starter Set.
Correction: Neverwinter Campaign Setting pg 8 says "a portion of that volcano's peak exploded with such force that lava and superheated ash poured across the city in an avalanche. Half of Neverwinters population died in a heartbeat, the city's buildings razed."
Quote from: CRKrueger;790152Ok we have some Grade-A Geographical and Meterological crazyasses among us, so if Mount Hotenow erupted with Pyroclastic Lava Flows 30 years ago, is there the smallest chance in hell that the Neverwinter area looks like it does in the Starter Set 30 years later?
Spoilered to not break page, or give spoilers.
Spoiler
(http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62191&d=1403000831)
For what it is worth, the Starter Set map is exactly the same as the map from the 4e Neverwinter hardcover.
Quote from: Patrick;790195Correction: Neverwinter Campaign Setting pg 8 says "a portion of that volcano's peak exploded with such force that lava and superheated ash poured across the city in an avalanche. Half of Neverwinters population died in a heartbeat, the city's buildings razed."
Ok so sufficient to do a mini Pompeii on Neverwinter from 35 miles away.
Given that Neverwinter is apparently 35 miles from Mt Hotenow, the implausible thing seems to be the city being so badly hit by the eruption. Depending on the wind I can see ash reaching the city, but it's not likely to kill half the population at that range. It sounds more like a magical attack than a natural event.
A natural volcanic eruption might devastate the area immediately around the mountain (the 5-mile hex, maybe some adjacent hexes) but short of a Krakatoa scale explosion it's not going to wipe out stuff further away.
Well, Krakatoa is utterly small compared to Tambora or Toba, so it could still be a volcano but just on a scale not seen since an ice age? pre-history? But 35 miles pyroclastic would be a level of destruction likely above Krakatoa but far smaller than Yellowstone's mega caldera eruption, or similar mega volcanic explosion.
When Pinatubo erupted in '91 the Pyroclastic flows reached 10 miles and the furthest lava bombs reached 20 miles. None of that would have caused major damage to a city 35miles away.
Pinatubo is the second largest eruption of the 20th century (Alaska 1912 for the biggest).
So this is what Pinatubo looks like now -
Spoiler
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2hcq9zm.jpg)
So you can see in 23 years the forest is still pretty much secondary growth but its getting there, there is still scaring from the actual lava flow. The Lithoseric progression timeline is measured in dozens of years generally (the time it takes for bare exposed rock to be recolonized by plants) even in tropical climates and in places like Iceland takes centuries.
Also note that Pinatubo is now a caldera lake. A volcanic explosion big enough to cause these events generally creates an impermeable caldera which quickly becomes filled with water.
So Mount Hotenow would have to have erupted with a force of magnitude at least double that of Pinatubo (Krakatoa pushed pyroclastic flows upto 48km so 35 Miles is approximate and that blew up an entire island.... ). There wouldn't be any mountain left unless the volcano had been active since and rebuilt itself. There would be a large caldera lake.
The axis from the mountain to the city would form a long scar as this was the route of the flows and vegetation along that path would be secondary growth so no large trees basically and depending on the climate (I guess temperate maritime) the lava flows would still be bare rock + lichens 30 years later.
Quote from: Opaopajr;790261Well, Krakatoa is utterly small compared to Tambora or Toba, so it could still be a volcano but just on a scale not seen since an ice age? pre-history? But 35 miles pyroclastic would be a level of destruction likely above Krakatoa but far smaller than Yellowstone's mega caldera eruption, or similar mega volcanic explosion.
Toba or Yellowstone we're talking continental-level devastation. Those happen, but they leave big ole craters, not just a bit off the top of the volcano. Mt Hotenow seems to be based on Mt Vesuvius, but with the writers not having a clear idea of scale.
Edit: Personally I halve all scales in my Forgotten Realms campaign. That puts Neverwinter ca 17.5 miles from Hotenow, too far for pyroclastic flow or significant lava bombs at the sort of eruption scale described ('blew off top of the mountain'), but near enough to be clearly visible on the skyline, and near enough that choking ash fallout becomes more plausible if the wind was blowing south-west. Given the monster-filled rift etc I would still use primarily magical explanations for the disaster. Given that the monsters in the rift seem to be Far Realm rather than Elemental Fire/Magma/Chaos, I would go with a Cthuloidy type justification. I assume the actual event is justified/explained in some RA Salvatore novel I've not read, but we can take it that the effects of the event were influenced by Far Realm cultists, the Aboleths etc to produce what actually happened.
Just been going over my 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting book. The eruption seems to have been caused by an unspecified fire/lava primordial waking up (presumably in a Salvatore book?), and it seems to be asleep again now, but no real detail beyond that. There is no indication that Neverwinter was specifically targeted, and the descriptions of the disaster are unclear at best, though fire & ash were involved, along with an earthquake. The aboleth as written were later opportunists coming up through the rift.
Asmodeus features here and there (Ashmadai, Duergar of Gauntlgrym) and could be a candidate for having manipulated the wild energies of the eruption towards Neverwinter's destruction.
Quote from: S'mon;790286Just been going over my 4e Neverwinter Campaign Setting book. The eruption seems to have been caused by an unspecified fire/lava primordial waking up (presumably in a Salvatore book?), and it seems to be asleep again now, but no real detail beyond that. There is no indication that Neverwinter was specifically targeted, and the descriptions of the disaster are unclear at best, though fire & ash were involved, along with an earthquake. The aboleth as written were later opportunists coming up through the rift...
According to the Salvatore book in question (yes, I read it), the ancient dwarf kingdom Gauntlgrym achieved its glory by taming a fire (or lava) primordial via water elementals (with help from elf and human wizards, during an ancient golden age of racial cooperation, etc.). For reasons I forget (something to do with their struggle against the Netherese), the Red Wizards deliberately awaken the primordial in order to destroy Neverwinter. So the volcano acts as a 'cannon', focusing its explosion on the city. Or something like that. The heroes eventually manage to reactivate the water elementals, thus causing the primordial to be contained once again.
So it's not a natural volcanic explosion that hits Neverwinter, but a magically controlled one. (Yet another variant on the 'a wizard did it!')
Quote from: Akrasia;790649For reasons I forget (something to do with their struggle against the Netherese), the Red Wizards deliberately awaken the primordial in order to destroy Neverwinter. So the volcano acts as a 'cannon', focusing its explosion on the city. Or something like that. The heroes eventually manage to reactivate the water elementals, thus causing the primordial to be contained once again.
So it's not a natural volcanic explosion that hits Neverwinter, but a magically controlled one. (Yet another variant on the 'a wizard did it!')
Cheers Akrasia - a giant Necromantic volcano-canon aimed at Neverwinter, cool. :cool:
Based on measuring the area around Mount St Helens. I think the FR map is plausible on the effects of an eruption that happened 30 years ago.
Quote from: estar;790695Based on measuring the area around Mount St Helens. I think the FR map is plausible on the effects of an eruption that happened 30 years ago.
But not if it was big enough to damage a city 35 miles away... the mountain would be a lake in all probability.
Krakatoa is the minimum size we are talking about and ...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Map_krakatau.gif)
You can see the entire island is gone and still mostly gone now 130 years later.
Ok, so river is choked with ash, fiery fallout, people killed by the toxic fumes rise as ash zombies, etc. Earthquakes level part of Neverwinter (Spellplague go Die), but lava didn't actually get anywhere near the place and the map is good. I can live with that.
It also could been lava bombs and drifting ash clouds that nailed Neverwinter. Normally it would be hard to travel that far but since the eruption was caused by irritating a fire being I suppose there could have been enough force involved to nail Neverwinter with lava falling from the sky.
The more likely explanation that the authors were using Hollywood physics.
My seven year old son knows more about geography than Ed Greenwood and the folks who write Forgotten Realms setting material.
And nobody has even mentioned the cringe-worthy, moronic place names in the setting. Mount Hotenow ("hot enough")? Thundertree? Neverwinter Wood, which is just outside Neverwinter City, which contains Neverwinter River, Neverwinter Castle, and the Lord Neverember? Wave Echo Cave? Starmetal Hills?
It boggles the mind that someone who has no imagination whatsoever, and no ear for language, has earned a handsome living writing fantasy novels.
Quote from: CRKrueger;790701Ok, so river is choked with ash, fiery fallout, people killed by the toxic fumes rise as ash zombies, etc. Earthquakes level part of Neverwinter (Spellplague go Die), but lava didn't actually get anywhere near the place and the map is good. I can live with that.
Based on (my recollection of) the Salvatore novel, burning ash did most of the damage, with some flying chunks of mountain hitting the city as well.
Quote from: Haffrung;790710My seven year old son knows more about geography than Ed Greenwood and the folks who write Forgotten Realms setting material.
And nobody has even mentioned the cringe-worthy, moronic place names in the setting. Mount Hotenow ("hot enough")? Thundertree? Neverwinter Wood, which is just outside Neverwinter City, which contains Neverwinter River, Neverwinter Castle, and the Lord Neverember? Wave Echo Cave? Starmetal Hills?
It boggles the mind that someone who has no imagination whatsoever, and no ear for language, has earned a handsome living writing fantasy novels.
Dammit, I'm trying to just run some 5e stuff as is for testing, don't remind me of the bad things about the Realms. :D
Quote from: Haffrung;790710My seven year old son knows more about geography than Ed Greenwood and the folks who write Forgotten Realms setting material.
And nobody has even mentioned the cringe-worthy, moronic place names in the setting. Mount Hotenow ("hot enough")? Thundertree? Neverwinter Wood, which is just outside Neverwinter City, which contains Neverwinter River, Neverwinter Castle, and the Lord Neverember? Wave Echo Cave? Starmetal Hills?
It boggles the mind that someone who has no imagination whatsoever, and no ear for language, has earned a handsome living writing fantasy novels.
Twilight book series.
(Isn't Greenwood Mormon, too, just like the Twilight 'author' (it's not like the Vampire Diaries, not at all. :rolleyes: )? Or is that only Dragonlance? Might be some sort of church sponsored "arts & humanities scholarship program." :p)
Quote from: Opaopajr;790761(Isn't Greenwood Mormon, too, just like the Twilight 'author' (it's not like the Vampire Diaries, not at all. :rolleyes: )? Or is that only Dragonlance? Might be some sort of church sponsored "arts & humanities scholarship program." :p)
Greenwood's not a Mormon. You're thinking of the Dragonlance authors.
Infelicitous place (and character) names are part of old school D&D. Just look at Greyhawk (Gnarly Hills, Yrag, etc.) and Blackmoor.
Quote from: Haffrung;790710And nobody has even mentioned the cringe-worthy, moronic place names in the setting. Mount Hotenow ("hot enough")? Thundertree? Neverwinter Wood, which is just outside Neverwinter City, which contains Neverwinter River, Neverwinter Castle, and the Lord Neverember? Wave Echo Cave? Starmetal Hills?
It boggles the mind that someone who has no imagination whatsoever, and no ear for language, has earned a handsome living writing fantasy novels.
I pointed it out elsewhere. Its a bit excessive and unimaginitive. in fact look at that whole area and its wall to wall that nearly. Trollbark Forest, Evermoors, Glimmerwood, Mirkwood, Sword Mountain, Misty Forest, Goldenfields, etc etc etc.
And Hotenow = Hot-n-Now
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8352/8401388170_bf7ae5bd06_z.jpg)
I think there is even one local... Probably next to mount Steakenshake...
Quote from: CRKrueger;790737Dammit, I'm trying to just run some 5e stuff as is for testing, don't remind me of the bad things about the Realms. :D
This is why Im not running Hoard of the Dragon Queen in the Realms.
Quote from: Akrasia;790762Infelicitous place (and character) names are part of old school D&D. Just look at Greyhawk (Gnarly Hills, Yrag, etc.) and Blackmoor.
True, but those are few compared to the more original sounding place names in Greyhawk.
Whereas the Sword coast at least is carpeted with them.
Quote from: Omega;790835True, but those are few compared to the more original sounding place names in Greyhawk.
Whereas the Sword coast at least is carpeted with them.
Huh. I don't see much difference. :idunno:
But then I'm rather fond of the Sword Coast (perhaps irrationally so), largely because of nostalgia (the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale CRPGs).
NounNoun gets old, but a lot of Europe is like that, the names have just eroded from the original. The alternative is snaking historical names, or coming up with stuff that someone's gonna say is too alien to pronounce and remember. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but joke names are never excusable outside of pure Parody games.
Good approach is to create 500 nonuns/adjectives in the ancient tongue then just translate dark tower wild wood etc into ancient and then age it a bit
One good excuse is that the word-word place names are translated from some other native language and the people moving in used the translations instead.
And sometimes you just get oddballs naming places...
Bemusing was that where I used to live we had towns like Clyde, Urbana, next to places with lurid names like Litchfield, Maimsburg and Painsville, and native names like Wapakoneta and Chillicothe, and old world names like Sandusky, Parma, etc.
That extends to Michigan now with things like Mt Pleasant... Thunder Bay, Coldwater...