WOTC wants to know what you like in D&D, what you don't like, and what they should do next.
It's a very long survey. It sometimes asks the same question multiple ways, with slightly different language. It wants to know your preferences for play, for setting, etc..
Give it a whirl.
https://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/4495590/ddsurvey
I took it. I was surprised by how much emphasis was placed on the non-TTRPG stuff and that it wasn't assumed that someone filling out the D&D survey was someone who played the TTRPG.
Interesting that they all but repeated several questions, in different orders.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1056118Interesting that they all but repeated several questions, in different orders.
It's a statistic sampling thing. They're going to show these results to Goldner after they filter through whichever suit is in charge of "brand blueprinting" (https://investor.hasbro.com/static-files/151365c7-d90c-4f88-967f-a46f52b62e6e)D&D.
My guess is that they're trying to figure out what else they can hang off the D&D brand; pillowcases? Video games? Movies? Cartoon show?
... Probably cartoon show. I wonder if they poach Rebecca Sugar? Nothing like doing the D&D cartoon by way of Steven Universe
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Quote from: Azraele;1056120It's a statistic sampling thing. They're going to show these results to Goldner after they filter through whichever suit is in charge of "brand blueprinting" (https://investor.hasbro.com/static-files/151365c7-d90c-4f88-967f-a46f52b62e6e)D&D.
In that case, my response they hope to discard as an outlier. But then, I'm not buying anything they are producing now. Changing to even less compelling "filler" material can't make me buy less.
Interesting. Its similar to some of their prior surveys.
This one though I noticed several weighted questions. I'd lay good odds someone has an agenda for non-gaming product.
Yeah, lots of questions that had nothing to do with actual play. I'm guessing there's a corporate push to capitalize on the game's prominence in today's zeitgeist to sell products and services that are not about the D&D game itself.
That survey proved to me that WotC sees D&D no longer as a game to be enjoyed, but as a brand to be marketed.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056164That survey proved to me that WotC sees D&D no longer as a game to be enjoyed, but as a brand to be marketed.
We have a winner!
I like 5e D&D, though I haven't played it in a while.
That survey made my skin crawl.
I took the survey just out of curiosity. It's clearly all about marketing D&D, specifically non-game merchandise. It repeatedly asked questions about my interest (or lack thereof) in branded merchandise being sold in bundles in an online store. It asked me a lot of questions about being a player and very few about being a GM. That was not about the future of D&D, it was about the future of Forgotten Realms t-shirts.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056164That survey proved to me that WotC sees D&D no longer as a game to be enjoyed, but as a brand to be marketed.
I remember when Internet forums were full of references to "T$R" and talk about how all they cared about was making money, not the game. Of course the business as a whole cares about their profit margin. However, a good game benefits all of book sales, merchandise, and brand marketing - so there is some clear correlation, but there are also differences.
Back when D&D profits rode primarily on book sales, the common complaint was that D&D books were being spit out just to get people to buy them like collectors items.
The alternate marketing path is getting people to enjoy D&D a lot without constantly buying books - and instead they use the popularity of the game to sell merchandise, accessories, and licenses.
I think there's trade-offs either way to maximizing the fun of the game for itself.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056164That survey proved to me that WotC sees D&D no longer as a game to be enjoyed, but as a brand to be marketed.
What? You mean that a company actually wants to use their products to make money!? Those bastards - how dare they want to keep their jobs and be profitable! /sarcasm
Quote from: jeff37923;1056164That survey proved to me that WotC sees D&D no longer as a game to be enjoyed, but as a brand to be marketed.
More likely not WOTC as a whole but someone in marketing with an agenda. Or an "idea"... Seen it before. will see it again.
Also it may be just a placebo to use as "proof" for some new harebrained marketing gag. "See See? Our totally legit survey shows that 90% of those survayed answered questions about non-gaming products so we are totally justified putting out these D&D mugs and D&D Hoodies and D&D Toothbrushes because YOU, yes
YOU demanded it!"
Quote from: Beldar;1056171I took the survey just out of curiosity. It's clearly all about marketing D&D, specifically non-game merchandise. It repeatedly asked questions about my interest (or lack thereof) in branded merchandise being sold in bundles in an online store. It asked me a lot of questions about being a player and very few about being a GM. That was not about the future of D&D, it was about the future of Forgotten Realms t-shirts.
Weird. I got a series of questions about being a DM? I wonder if it adds more based on the early answers you give?
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056177What? You mean that a company actually wants to use their products to make money!? Those bastards - how dare they want to keep their jobs and be profitable! /sarcasm
I am sorry but your application for village idiot will have to wait in line with the others.
Quote from: jhkim;1056173I remember when Internet forums were full of references to "T$R" and talk about how all they cared about was making money, not the game. Of course the business as a whole cares about their profit margin. However, a good game benefits all of book sales, merchandise, and brand marketing - so there is some clear correlation, but there are also differences.
Back when D&D profits rode primarily on book sales, the common complaint was that D&D books were being spit out just to get people to buy them like collectors items.
The alternate marketing path is getting people to enjoy D&D a lot without constantly buying books - and instead they use the popularity of the game to sell merchandise, accessories, and licenses.
I think there's trade-offs either way to maximizing the fun of the game for itself.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056177What? You mean that a company actually wants to use their products to make money!? Those bastards - how dare they want to keep their jobs and be profitable! /sarcasm
While I understand the points both of you are making, it is a question of focus for WotC. Is D&D a TTRPG to be played and enjoyed or is D&D an intellectual property to be exploited through means not associated with its gaming history? To me it looks more like the later in WotC's view.
Quote from: Omega;1056181Weird. I got a series of questions about being a DM? I wonder if it adds more based on the early answers you give?
It asked me what percentage of the time I DM rather than play. My answer was 100% as I haven't been just a player in well over a decade. It then asked me if I considered myself to be an "active" DM. I marked yes, but after those two questions I then got a series of at least 20 questions about my preferences and habits as a player.
I was also asked at least twice if I found non game related D&D merchandise to be of great interest to me when bundled with other merchandise. I'm not even sure what that means exactly. If you buy a book from them are they going to send you vorpal penciles? Cursed Boxer Shorts of Chafing? A vial of dragon whiz? I don't find random useless junk to be appealing or enticing.
Quote from: Azraele;1056120Probably cartoon show. I wonder if they poach Rebecca Sugar? Nothing like doing the D&D cartoon by way of Steven Universe
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Talentless pap that somehow gets a green light.
It makes you wonder just how talentless derivative unappealing shit like that gets the go ahead from the guys with the cash.
I mean, even the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, as bad as it was, wasn't as crap as that half-drawn half hearted garbage.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056189While I understand the points both of you are making, it is a question of focus for WotC. Is D&D a TTRPG to be played and enjoyed or is D&D an intellectual property to be exploited through means not associated with its gaming history? To me it looks more like the later in WotC's view.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. And likely the people involved in working on the actual game aren't much involved in putting together all of the other merchandise, and vice-versa.
I mean - just because the Deadpool movies are a success doesn't mean that they stopped publishing the Deadpool comics. Quite the opposite.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1056198Talentless pap that somehow gets a green light.
It makes you wonder just how talentless derivative unappealing shit like that gets the go ahead from the guys with the cash.
I mean, even the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, as bad as it was, wasn't as crap as that half-drawn half hearted garbage.
The Cartoon was acually pretty well done even by todays standards. Or especially by todays standards. Especially the art, but even the writing tended to be well above the usual.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056202The two aren't mutually exclusive. And likely the people involved in working on the actual game aren't much involved in putting together all of the other merchandise, and vice-versa.
That's where it becomes a problem for me. T-shirts, books, and bumper stickers I can see because they allow you to represent your nerd passions. D&D is an interactive game, a tabletop role-playing game. Using the brand to sell merchandise like energy drinks, breakfast cereals, fast food restaurant kiddie meals, clothing lines, auto parts, cosmetics, hygiene items, jewelry, life insurance, replica armor, and replica weapons tells me that the suits are more interested in milking what they think is a cash cow instead of making a good game. It actually feels like WotC views D&D gaming as mere advertising for whatever they brand next with the D&D IP.
EDIT: Remember Gamer Soap? The soap that came with a d20 embedded in the center? That is the kind of thing I can see WotC coming up with for D&D branding.
Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class? (https://nerdist.com/dungeons-and-dragons-gentleman-class-old-spice/)
Quote from: jeff37923;1056212That's where it becomes a problem for me. T-shirts, books, and bumper stickers I can see because they allow you to represent your nerd passions. D&D is an interactive game, a tabletop role-playing game. Using the brand to sell merchandise like energy drinks, breakfast cereals, fast food restaurant kiddie meals, clothing lines, auto parts, cosmetics, hygiene items, jewelry, life insurance, replica armor, and replica weapons tells me that the suits are more interested in milking what they think is a cash cow instead of making a good game. It actually feels like WotC views D&D gaming as mere advertising for whatever they brand next with the D&D IP.
EDIT: Remember Gamer Soap? The soap that came with a d20 embedded in the center? That is the kind of thing I can see WotC coming up with for D&D branding.
Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class? (https://nerdist.com/dungeons-and-dragons-gentleman-class-old-spice/)
One of the problems WotC, really anybody in the "RPG Industry" (snerk) faces is the central reality that RPG books are super-favorable for their purchasers. I was given the paperback B/X books about five years ago; those books been performing at 100% functionality, providing thrilling games for their owner since their release in 1981 (i.e. five years before I was even goddamn born)
Unlike video games, which then (and today) were more expensive, harder to share, and significantly more limited, that product has been relevant
and remains so. I mean hell, I own it because the OSR has been rocking that system for longer than my lifetime.
The structure of RPGs as products is a
huge return in fun on your money. I recently bought a $50 book; I'll enjoy the thing, with my friends, for the remainder of my natural life.
That's awesome for me as a consumer, but it means as a seller that I'm never going to sell more than one book per customer ever. That's just the structural fact of how RPGs work as an entertainment product.
And as an investor? "You can leverage this property exactly one time!... Just once!" isn't a dividend-payer. Throwing money behind that would be moronic, when My Little Pony, Monopoly, and Christ almighty
Magic:The Gathering are products from the same company.
So Hasbro's doing what any gigantic, hyper-rational corporation would do to make something structurally impossible to consistently leverage appealing to investors; they're figuring out how to
monetize your fandom.
This doesn't have to be a bad thing; giant corporations are super-good at making things cheap, available, and immortal through commercial viability (like, McDonald's chicken nuggets aren't the tastiest things in the world, but there's never going to be a point in my life where I can't get some if I want).
It'd be awesome if I could walk into a Wal-Mart pick up a modern copy of B/X for $7.99, take it home to my kids, and play D&D like it was 1983; dice, maps, everything in there. Seeing that red box sold alongside Monopoly would bring a tear to my eye. If that's got to come along with a silly cartoon and Beholder coffee mugs? Eh, whatever.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056212Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class?
Indeed. Procter & Gamble beating up on nerds for being ugly and smelly. Let's all forget about the Rely tampons created by Procter & Gamble caused toxic shock syndrome in women using them.
That's feminism WotC style: ridicule smelly unnatractive men for shiggles while giving evil corporations like P&G a free pass on poisoning women for money.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1056219Indeed. Procter & Gamble beating up on nerds for being ugly and smelly. Let's all forget about the Rely tampons created by Procter & Gamble caused toxic shock syndrome in women using them.
That's feminism WotC style: ridicule smelly unnatractive men for shiggles while giving evil corporations like P&G a free pass on poisoning women for money.
Eugh, that is horrible. In other news, you added the word "shiggles" to my vocabulary today, so I am forever in your debt.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056212That's where it becomes a problem for me. T-shirts, books, and bumper stickers I can see because they allow you to represent your nerd passions. D&D is an interactive game, a tabletop role-playing game. Using the brand to sell merchandise like energy drinks, breakfast cereals, fast food restaurant kiddie meals, clothing lines, auto parts, cosmetics, hygiene items, jewelry, life insurance, replica armor, and replica weapons tells me that the suits are more interested in milking what they think is a cash cow instead of making a good game. It actually feels like WotC views D&D gaming as mere advertising for whatever they brand next with the D&D IP.
Even if all of those things come out - why are they any skin off your nose? Just don't buy them.
And what "suits"? You mean the people at Hasbro who like to make $? So... all of them? If they think that some random product is going to make them a good return - they'll make it. But I don't see why them coming out with D&D toothpaste makes any difference to the quality of the rulebooks - except by making Hasbro that much more invested in keeping the production values high to maintain the brand's value. It's not as if they're going to take the D&D writers' time designing the Mindflayer spread's flavor.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056212
Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class? (https://nerdist.com/dungeons-and-dragons-gentleman-class-old-spice/)
I actually found that pretty funny.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056224Even if all of those things come out - why are they any skin off your nose? Just don't buy them.
And what "suits"? You mean the people at Hasbro who like to make $? So... all of them? If they think that some random product is going to make them a good return - they'll make it. But I don't see why them coming out with D&D toothpaste makes any difference to the quality of the rulebooks - except by making Hasbro that much more invested in keeping the production values high to maintain the brand's value. It's not as if they're going to take the D&D writers' time designing the Mindflayer spread's flavor.
Would you rather D&D be known for its brand of toothpaste or for its quality as a game when you are trying to gather players?
So much hyperbole being thrown about.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056230Would you rather D&D be known for its brand of toothpaste or for its quality as a game when you are trying to gather players?
Get a +20 on your saving throw against cavities with Dungeons and Dragons Brand Toothpaste! Available in Minty Mage, Fireball, and new Refreshing Ranger flavor!
Quote from: Azraele;1056120... Probably cartoon show. I wonder if they poach Rebecca Sugar? Nothing like doing the D&D cartoon by way of Steven Universe
You are bad and should feel bad.
Is it wrong that by page 4 I was so tired of seeing the same question rephrased over and again that I clicked out of the survey? Voluntary, uncompensated surveys should never be that long.
I'm guessing 6e is now about two years away, if this survey is already out.
Quote from: danbuter;1056243I'm guessing 6e is now about two years away, if this survey is already out.
There was no rules type stuff in it at all.
Quote from: S'mon;1056245There was no rules type stuff in it at all.
True, from what I got through before it crashed on me. It feels more like the precursor to a big marketing push than a new edition
per se.
Quote from: danbuter;1056243I'm guessing 6e is now about two years away, if this survey is already out.
Nah. They have something like this about once a year. The last two I did looked much the same. Just minus all the "Brand product" questions about if I want mugs or limited COLLECTIBLE versions of the books.
Seems to me that they are trying to diversify their offerings, like Paizo did a few years back, by getting into the book trade.
It's odd how much overlap there is between people who hate 'socialism' and people who hate corporations making profits (aka 'capitalism').
Quote from: Haffrung;1056259It's odd how much overlap there is between people who hate 'socialism' and people who hate corporations making profits (aka 'capitalism').
Almost like there's just... people who hate. I can buy that.
Quote from: Haffrung;1056259It's odd how much overlap there is between people who hate 'socialism' and people who hate corporations making profits (aka 'capitalism').
Socialism, pure socialism, has always ended in starvation then genocide. Pure capitalism promotes conflict that often escalates into wars. A balance is needed. But unfortunately...
Which is why I try to keep as much real world politics out of my games.
Quote from: Haffrung;1056259It's odd how much overlap there is between people who hate 'socialism' and people who hate corporations making profits (aka 'capitalism').
There is capitalism and then theres rampant senseless capitalism. The second type we are seeing more and more of. Self destructive capitalism.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1056241Is it wrong that by page 4 I was so tired of seeing the same question rephrased over and again that I clicked out of the survey? Voluntary, uncompensated surveys should never be that long.
Nope. Me too. I made it to 18% and quit out in boredom.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056265Nope. Me too. I made it to 18% and quit out in boredom.
I wonder if WoTC's keeping track of how many start to take the survey and then drop out. Regardless, their sampling is going to be seriously skewed because of the way they made this thing.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1056265Nope. Me too. I made it to 18% and quit out in boredom.
It would been have been a lot shorter if they didn't have so many similar or repeated questions. I wonder what the purpose of that was.
Quote from: Beldar;1056270It would been have been a lot shorter if they didn't have so many similar or repeated questions. I wonder what the purpose of that was.
It was a 'gotchya'. To see if you were paying attention.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056230Would you rather D&D be known for its brand of toothpaste or for its quality as a game when you are trying to gather players?
Monopoly's greatest exposure these days is in supermarkets as a promotion and coupon tool. When you gather players to play Monopoly however, they think of the game and not supermarket promotions and coupons. I just don't think spreading the brand name around on things which are obviously not the game distracts game players from what the game is about.
Quote from: Beldar;1056270It would been have been a lot shorter if they didn't have so many similar or repeated questions. I wonder what the purpose of that was.
It's because research shows that question wording is the biggest culprit in skewing answers, and the best way to address this issue is to ask the same question in different ways to eliminate wording issues.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056271It was a 'gotchya'. To see if you were paying attention.
Thought this too.
But could also be simply that they embedded similar questions within the array so that it was more likely youd get that question at least once depending on how many things you checked early on.
It could also just be a not so subtle attempt to skew the results.
Quote from: Beldar;1056270It would been have been a lot shorter if they didn't have so many similar or repeated questions. I wonder what the purpose of that was.
They do that to establish a baseline of consistency.You would be amazed how many people take a survey like they were guessing at answers on an old scan tron sheet.
A-B-C-D-E-D-C-B-A
Many people will start a survey to find out what someone "is selling" but have no interest in providing meaningful feedback (too much effort).
I thought t was a well made survey that covered a lot of age and social demographics. The blind spot in this survey is probably still 16 years and under.
Quote from: Mistwell;1056273Monopoly's greatest exposure these days is in supermarkets as a promotion and coupon tool. When you gather players to play Monopoly however, they think of the game and not supermarket promotions and coupons. I just don't think spreading the brand name around on things which are obviously not the game distracts game players from what the game is about.
Apples and oranges here. Most people in the Western World have played Monopoly. Most people in the Western World have not played D&D. Before using D&D in the same way as Monopoly for advertising and promotion, they might want to get more people actually playing the game.....
Quote from: Mistwell;1056273Monopoly's greatest exposure these days is in supermarkets as a promotion and coupon tool. When you gather players to play Monopoly however, they think of the game and not supermarket promotions and coupons. I just don't think spreading the brand name around on things which are obviously not the game distracts game players from what the game is about.
Apples and oranges here. Monopoly is 115 years old and D&D is only 44 years old, a child in comparison culturally. Most people in the Western World have played Monopoly. Most people in the Western World have not played D&D. Before using D&D in the same way as Monopoly for advertising and promotion, they might want to get more people actually playing the game.....
I thought the survey was fine. Seems to me they were mostly trying to figure out three things:
1. Playstyle. These were the questions asking "Do you like to take bold action? Do you like to talk with funny accents? Do you like to create elaborate plans?" etc.
2. Future products. These were the questions about "Do you like aweome art in the books? Would you like to buy a mug or t-shirt? What about a video game?" etc.
3. Sideline activities. Stuff like "Do you draw pictures of your character? Paint minis? Write backstories? Watch videos? Waste time arguing politics in RPG forums? (LOL, just seeing who's read this far...)
Quote from: Haffrung;1056259It's odd how much overlap there is between people who hate 'socialism' and people who hate corporations making profits (aka 'capitalism').
As Aristotle teaches, there are two vices for every virtue. A healthy society needs an appropriate balance.
Jesus Freaking Christ, that was a chore. I hung in there just to tell them to fuck off in various comment sections.
Quote from: Aglondir;10562883. Sideline activities. Stuff like "Do you draw pictures of your character? Paint minis? Write backstories? Watch videos? Waste time arguing politics in RPG forums? (LOL, just seeing who's read this far...)
I saw that as well. There was more than one question about "Do you draw D&D stuff, paint minis, make stuff?"
D&D Paints! D&D Coloured Pencils! D&D Green Stuff!
Long as they dont go Games Workshop about it.
Man, you guys were all really negative about this survey. I didn't have an issue with it.
But I also own D&D branded socks.
Quote from: rawma;1056577Man, you guys were all really negative about this survey. I didn't have an issue with it.
But I also own D&D branded socks.
As long as they keep making game books, I'm cool. :)
Quote from: rawma;1056577Man, you guys were all really negative about this survey. I didn't have an issue with it.
But I also own D&D branded socks.
For me it is just more a problem of spotting a likely marketing ploy. Annoyance more than anything as WOTC looooves to skew polls to fit some new harebrained marketing trend.
"Due to the overwhelming request for it as indicated by our polls WOTC will be producing the D&D Cooking Show! Learn how Drizzt makes souffles, thrill to Xanithars instructions on how to make the perfect eight layer cake!" :eek:
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056584As long as they keep making game books, I'm cool. :)
Good game books preferrably. And overall I rather liked Xanithar's Guide and the Mordenkainen book was interesting at least and new monsters is good.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1056584As long as they keep making game books, I'm cool. :)
And that the TTRPG remains their core competence. Those of us who are worried are worried that the emphasis will shift and the game will suffer. See what Jack Kirby did to Games Workshop as an example.
Quote from: KingCheops;1056632See what Jack Kirby did to Games Workshop as an example.
You dare question the King? The man who gave us Captain America, the Mighty Thor, and the dreadful Darkseid? I SAY THEE NAY!
(I'm assuming it's a completely different Jack Kirby. :) )
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1056642You dare question the King? The man who gave us Captain America, the Mighty Thor, and the dreadful Darkseid? I SAY THEE NAY!
(I'm assuming it's a completely different Jack Kirby. :) )
Well shit I did get them messed up. Jack Kirby is the wonderful man you described and Tom Kirby is the sack of shit I described.
Was just at Barnes & Nobles today and saw some interesting D&D stuff from licensed 3rd parties. Minis from Wiz Kids. (which look kinda... small? Whats the scale on these? 20mm? 15?) those spell card references from I think DP9? (hope they fixed em!) And a totally adorable Owl Bear plush that was also a dice holder, and another that was a Mimic. Also some "classic" dice sets from not sure who.
Not to mention the board games.
I think accessories like dice bags would be perfectly fine. If the survey had mentioned that my answers would have been more positive.
(https://www.sageadvice.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/DCIzP60XsAAmW0r.jpg)
The only acceptable dice bag is a Crown Royal dice bag!
Quote from: Azraele;1056120It's a statistic sampling thing. They're going to show these results to Goldner after they filter through whichever suit is in charge of "brand blueprinting" (https://investor.hasbro.com/static-files/151365c7-d90c-4f88-967f-a46f52b62e6e)D&D.
My guess is that they're trying to figure out what else they can hang off the D&D brand; pillowcases? Video games? Movies? Cartoon show?
... Probably cartoon show. I wonder if they poach Rebecca Sugar? Nothing like doing the D&D cartoon by way of Steven Universe
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That's vomit inducing art.
Quote from: rawma;1056577Man, you guys were all really negative about this survey. I didn't have an issue with it.
But I also own D&D branded socks.
Took the survey, low voted the merch questions as I don't tend to buy merch and told them I don't buy their stuff because I've already got a ton of FR stuff from 20 years ago. And I don't really do class based systems anymore.
I doubt they really care, since all but one of the upcoming products they asked about were FR based.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056754The only acceptable dice bag is a Crown Royal dice bag!
Got a few. And some oddly nice pistachio bags my roommate saved for me. And one of my players makes chainmail dice bags. I did the pattern work for them.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1056763That's vomit inducing art.
DuckDuckGo "CalArts" and you'll find the source of that abominable style.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056754The only acceptable dice bag is a Crown Royal dice bag!
What about my chainmail bag?
Quote from: danbuter;1056243I'm guessing 6e is now about two years away, if this survey is already out.
Hopefully! I would love for the current edition of D&D not to be the only edition I refuse to play (5e).
I've always preferred a dice box. Currently I use on of those Vaultz pencil boxes which have a 3d image (velociraptors in my case) on the lid. A D&D themed box with the 3d image may intrigue me. I took the survey. I'm certainly not the target market though. I cannot stand Forgotten Realms.
Quote from: KingCheops;1056868What about my chainmail bag?
Only acceptable if it was once a bikini.
Quote from: jeff37923;1056164That survey proved to me that WotC sees D&D no longer as a game to be enjoyed, but as a brand to be marketed.
Yes, exactly. The Survey absolutely confirms what I'd been suggesting about WoTC aiming to change D&D from a hobby to a Lifestyle Brand.
Quote from: Heavy Josh;1056166I like 5e D&D, though I haven't played it in a while.
That survey made my skin crawl.
well now I'm going to have to go take it!
Quote from: RandyB;1056830DuckDuckGo "CalArts" and you'll find the source of that abominable style.
I could do that. But then I'd have to gouge out my eyes with a melon baller and pour bleach into the sockets.
And I've got a bowling tournament this weekend, so I'm to busy.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057168Yes, exactly. The Survey absolutely confirms what I'd been suggesting about WoTC aiming to change D&D from a hobby to a Lifestyle Brand.
Not yet. Its more likely a marketing section agenda rather than WOTC as a whole. Those questions about "branded product" most likely were seeded to prove some point. They keep mentioning Mugs and other non gaming things which is telling.
As said. I think things like those plush dice bags and such are fine. Mugs even are ok. Hell. I still have my GenCon plastic cup from 96. I guess even pens and pencils would be ok as they at least serve a gaming purpose.
The rest? Who knows? D&D Kree-O didnt go over so well.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1057190I could do that. But then I'd have to gouge out my eyes with a melon baller and pour bleach into the sockets.
And I've got a bowling tournament this weekend, so I'm to busy.
Good priorities. :) Bowling is always a good time.
This is getting ridiculous, what's next a D&D woodburning set?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1057168Yes, exactly. The Survey absolutely confirms what I'd been suggesting about WoTC aiming to change D&D from a hobby to a Lifestyle Brand.
So what? It doesn't change the game for the people playing it. Nobody is going to make you buy that stuff.
Isn't this just "Grrrrrrr, people like things I don't like" nerdfury?
Quote from: Haffrung;1057265So what? It doesn't change the game for the people playing it. Nobody is going to make you buy that stuff.
Isn't this just "Grrrrrrr, people like things I don't like" nerdfury?
It matters if the focus changes from making games that are fun to play to making shit that's not a game and just crapping out worthless gaming product because the "deplorables" that still play the game expect it.
Quote from: happyhermit;1057241This is getting ridiculous, what's next a D&D woodburning set?
That's stupid.
Now if it were for -Advanced- D&D and -official-, it'd be a brilliant idea!
Seriously though, I had a trip down memory lane with this (http://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2010/10/down-in-dungeon.html). Granted, that isn't a TSR book, but WotC could do something similar. A series of art books -could- actually help draw new people into the hobby.
Quote from: KingCheops;1057267It matters if the focus changes from making games that are fun to play to making shit that's not a game and just crapping out worthless gaming product because the "deplorables" that still play the game expect it.
What do you mean by changing the focus? It's not as though they're going to rope in the 5E design team and adventure writers to design and market coffee mugs.
Quote from: Haffrung;1057274What do you mean by changing the focus? It's not as though they're going to rope in the 5E design team and adventure writers to design and market coffee mugs.
Do you understand how business works? Or do you need me to spell it out for you?
Quote from: Haffrung;1057274What do you mean by changing the focus? It's not as though they're going to rope in the 5E design team and adventure writers to design and market coffee mugs.
This.
If anything - they would become LESS worried about the actual 5e books being profitable, as simply maintaining the brand could be profitable via said mugs/t-shirts/dental floss.
If they can make good $ with the peripherals, so long as the books themselves break even they'll keep them going.
Quote from: san dee jota;1057272That's stupid.
Now if it were for -Advanced- D&D and -official-, it'd be a brilliant idea!
Back in the days before the fall, when all was good in the world, TSR stood for the unsullied purity of the D&D ttrpg, and only licensed; video games, pens, cartoons, toys, hats, novels, pencil cases, etc.
Quote from: san dee jota;1057272Seriously though, I had a trip down memory lane with this (http://monsterbrains.blogspot.com/2010/10/down-in-dungeon.html). Granted, that isn't a TSR book, but WotC could do something similar. A series of art books -could- actually help draw new people into the hobby.
It tries to cover the complete history, so includes a lot of modern stuff, but in a similar vein I am seriously considering the Art and Arcana book coming out soon. Just saw that with a pre-order they are giving away a print, but it only only applies to Americans, which leaves me out. Still, looks well produced.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057282This.
If anything - they would become LESS worried about the actual 5e books being profitable, as simply maintaining the brand could be profitable via said mugs/t-shirts/dental floss.
If they can make good $ with the peripherals, so long as the books themselves break even they'll keep them going.
https://www.investopedia.com/university/capital-budgeting/ (https://www.investopedia.com/university/capital-budgeting/)
Quote from: KingCheops;1057288
https://www.investopedia.com/university/capital-budgeting/ (https://www.investopedia.com/university/capital-budgeting/)
I don't know what you're referencing. I work in finance - I know how budgeting works.
It's not uncommon for companies to have flagship products which make little/no money if their sales inherently promote the sales of high margin products.
For a gaming reference everyone knows - at release most new video game consoles actually lose $. But - selling them is still beneficial because it (quite obviously) promotes the sale of their games.
If WoTC is able to make stupid $ by selling random D&D branded stuff, they're going to want to keep the brand relevant/popular even if that project in and of itself makes little to no $. That isn't to say that they wouldn't RATHER it also make a solid profit, just that it would be worth doing anyway to support the brand, even if not quite as causal as console > game.
Your example is no good.
Let's modify it a little bit. Nintendo makes accessories for the Nintendo Switch. For instance I bought a Legend of Zelda carrying case for my Switch because well fuck yeah. How many Zelda fans are buying these carry cases without buying both the console and the game? The console maybe loses money but they get a couple of sales out of it (game, carry case). Are there lots of people who purchase console branded gear without actually owning/playing the console?
How many people who buy a D&D mug are going to buy the PHB? Mugs are useful in and of themselves. What's the tipping point where people who don't play the TTRPG become more important as customers than those who do play the TTRPG? This survey assumed you DIDN'T currently play the game and was gauging interest in NON-GAME related products. This is a test of whether the brand is more important than the game. LOTS of people are being exposed to D&D without being exposed to playing the TTRPG.
PS: I have considered using my carrying case to hold SD cards in addition to my Switch games so it would have value outside of console gaming. I also own a Zelda mug. But I likely wouldn't have purchased either if I wasn't a fan of playing the games since childhood.
Quote from: happyhermit;1057241This is getting ridiculous, what's next a D&D woodburning set?
We have D&D branded miniature paint sets (https://www.thearmypainter.com/dnd.php). Is this some sign that it's the end of the TTRPG as we know it?
Quote from: Ras Algethi;1057308We have D&D branded miniature paint sets (https://www.thearmypainter.com/dnd.php). Is this some sign that it's the end of the TTRPG as we know it?
Absolutely, this is not like in the 80's when TSR was selling D&D branded paint sets, and needlepoint, this is... Different!
Quote from: KingCheops;1057307How many people who buy a D&D mug are going to buy the PHB?
It's more a question of how many people who bought the PHB will also buy a D&D mug. If they're just selling mugs, the only advantage to making them D&D mugs vs non-D&D mugs is that they can sell more of the former to D&D players.
I might buy a mug with certain artwork from OD&D
; not because the artwork is good but from nostalgia. Without the game or its artwork, a D&D mug might be seen as "Damaged & Defective" or "(Accidental) Death & Dismemberment" and I think either would be a harder sell. If the artwork is just random fantasy art and not specifically from D&D books, then again there's no advantage to the mug being D&D or not D&D.
QuoteThis survey assumed you DIDN'T currently play the game and was gauging interest in NON-GAME related products.
It asked me if I played the game, so I don't think the first part is correct. Some of the questions might have been to inform game direction, like about settings. But I'd much prefer that internet surveys NOT determine the content of future game books, whether or not it's limited to actual players or just to people who buy D&D mugs.
As well, the more D&D has become a lifestyle brand, the less risk they have taken with any of the gaming material. It's already a safe, texture-less luke warm pablum version of kitchen sink fantasy.
Quote from: KingCheops;1057307Your example is no good.
Let's modify it a little bit. Nintendo makes accessories for the Nintendo Switch. For instance I bought a Legend of Zelda carrying case for my Switch because well fuck yeah. How many Zelda fans are buying these carry cases without buying both the console and the game? The console maybe loses money but they get a couple of sales out of it (game, carry case). Are there lots of people who purchase console branded gear without actually owning/playing the console?
How many people who buy a D&D mug are going to buy the PHB? Mugs are useful in and of themselves. What's the tipping point where people who don't play the TTRPG become more important as customers than those who do play the TTRPG? This survey assumed you DIDN'T currently play the game and was gauging interest in NON-GAME related products. This is a test of whether the brand is more important than the game. LOTS of people are being exposed to D&D without being exposed to playing the TTRPG.
PS: I have considered using my carrying case to hold SD cards in addition to my Switch games so it would have value outside of console gaming. I also own a Zelda mug. But I likely wouldn't have purchased either if I wasn't a fan of playing the games since childhood.
I guess it depends upon whether you think that the D&D as a marketable brand could survive D&D itself being gone and/or really bad. I don't think so. I know that I see a lot more D&D peripherals now than in the time of 4e, so it certainly appears (albeit anecdotally) that the success of 5e as a game has pushed forward D&D more successfully as a brand in general.
Your logic is based upon the idea that a lack of actual D&D books of solid quality would have no impact upon the sales of random D&D branded merchandise (mugs etc.) - or at least that WoTC doesn't see a connection. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that point.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057356Your logic is based upon the idea that a lack of actual D&D books of solid quality would have no impact upon the sales of random D&D branded merchandise (mugs etc.) - or at least that WoTC doesn't see a connection. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that point.
Lived experience with Games Workshop taking this viewpoint is what has me worried. But yeah I can accept your viewpoint as well.
Quote from: happyhermit;1057241This is getting ridiculous, what's next a D&D woodburning set?
er... that was a real thing...
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/nBAAAOSwubRXIiMd/s-l640.jpg)
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1057282This.
If anything - they would become LESS worried about the actual 5e books being profitable, as simply maintaining the brand could be profitable via said mugs/t-shirts/dental floss.
If they can make good $ with the peripherals, so long as the books themselves break even they'll keep them going.
Or they might decide the periperals sell more than the core product and shift focus. TSR did that somewhat with their book craze to the point they bought and ran for years Amazing Stories.
Quote from: Omega;1057468er... that was a real thing...
Huh. ;)
Quote from: KingCheops;1057446Lived experience with Games Workshop taking this viewpoint is what has me worried. But yeah I can accept your viewpoint as well.
I don't think that WoTC could pull that off. Games Workshop has been able to leverage their cool world - which was always the selling point of their game anyway. In D&D's case, it's pretty generic kitchen sink fantasy (albeit - partially because D&D helped to invent modern kitchen sink fantasy).
But - I can certainly concede that WoTC might try to give it a go based upon the Games Workshop example.
Quote from: Omega;1057468er... that was a real thing...
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/nBAAAOSwubRXIiMd/s-l640.jpg)
(I'm pretty sure that was happyhermit's point)
Not everyone is Drax the Destroyer so apparently it did in fact go over their head.
Quote from: RandyB;1056830DuckDuckGo "CalArts" and you'll find the source of that abominable style.
Oh, you mean the same source that trained the creator oaf Aeon Flux?
[video=youtube;E7eeaL6J3dE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7eeaL6J3dE&list=PLaD16z1FQGeIKdE_CI8L66Ng3OesR_swJ&index=45[/youtube]
Tastes vary; styles vary. I for one like the art of Steven Universe; but I can like a soft-edged friendly show like that and still love the bleeding-edge mindfuckery which is Aeon Flux. It's crazy how the same person can like lots of different things for different reasons.
It's almost like people are complex and multifaceted or something
Quote from: happyhermit;1057511Huh. ;)
You should take a bow for that one.
It's called Calarts, but it's not. It's a lazy form of Flash style animation. It doesn't require much actual work, it's about 5 frames for speaking which you can swap and loop.
Lifestyle brands make lots of money via licensing. WotC doesn't need to make woodburning kits, they just have to sell the license to anyone willing to pony up the cash. AKA, why you see Star Wars stuff in 99 cent stores.
I don't have a problem with WotC maximizing their profits, but I would prefer if their company imploded instead.
Quote from: NathanIW;1057333As well, the more D&D has become a lifestyle brand, the less risk they have taken with any of the gaming material. It's already a safe, texture-less luke warm pablum version of kitchen sink fantasy.
4e taught WotC to not try anything new. Sacred cows are sacred. 5e is an extruded sausage ground from 1e to 4e stripped of flavor because soft serve is what the core market wants and WotC is not going to deviate again. The move to lifestyle brand is their plan to keep the current edition "evergreen" by selling the same books, albeit with refreshed art to the next gen. It will be the Chaosium school of "editions".
But to be fair, flavorful settings don't depend on rulesets. I'm no fan of 5e, but I don't see why you couldn't their rules in a kickass setting.
Quote from: Spinachcat;10576544e taught WotC to not try anything new. Sacred cows are sacred. 5e is an extruded sausage ground from 1e to 4e stripped of flavor because soft serve is what the core market wants and WotC is not going to deviate again. The move to lifestyle brand is their plan to keep the current edition "evergreen" by selling the same books, albeit with refreshed art to the next gen. It will be the Chaosium school of "editions".
But to be fair, flavorful settings don't depend on rulesets. I'm no fan of 5e, but I don't see why you couldn't their rules in a kickass setting.
Absolutely you can use the rules for a kick ass setting. I agree that rules and setting can be separate but they can also be linked. I think with D&D they are. Sometimes it's explicit like with Greyhawk at times. Other times it's just an implied setting of all the various types of characters, rules for handing money, skills, towns, etc., the monsters one expects to find in the world and where they might be and so on. At this point "D&D fantasy" has become sort of a combination of being self referential and a bland incorporation of generic fantasy ideas from the larger quasi-mainstream genre market. They've even finally decided they can combine D&D with Magic the Gathering in a more explicit way.
I think the bland extruded sausage analogy is pretty apt.