Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056177What? You mean that a company actually wants to use their products to make money!? Those bastards - how dare they want to keep their jobs and be profitable! /sarcasm

I am sorry but your application for village idiot will have to wait in line with the others.

Quote from: jhkim;1056173I remember when Internet forums were full of references to "T$R" and talk about how all they cared about was making money, not the game. Of course the business as a whole cares about their profit margin. However, a good game benefits all of book sales, merchandise, and brand marketing - so there is some clear correlation, but there are also differences.

Back when D&D profits rode primarily on book sales, the common complaint was that D&D books were being spit out just to get people to buy them like collectors items.

The alternate marketing path is getting people to enjoy D&D a lot without constantly buying books - and instead they use the popularity of the game to sell merchandise, accessories, and licenses.

I think there's trade-offs either way to maximizing the fun of the game for itself.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056177What? You mean that a company actually wants to use their products to make money!? Those bastards - how dare they want to keep their jobs and be profitable! /sarcasm

While I understand the points both of you are making, it is a question of focus for WotC. Is D&D a TTRPG to be played and enjoyed or is D&D an intellectual property to be exploited through means not associated with its gaming history? To me it looks more like the later in WotC's view.

Quote from: Omega;1056181Weird. I got a series of questions about being a DM? I wonder if it adds more based on the early answers you give?

It asked me what percentage of the time I DM rather than play. My answer was 100% as I haven't been just a player in well over a decade. It then asked me if I considered myself to be an "active" DM. I marked yes, but after those two questions I then got a series of at least 20 questions about my preferences and habits as a player.

I was also asked at least twice if I found non game related D&D merchandise to be of great interest to me when bundled with other merchandise. I'm not even sure what that means exactly. If you buy a book from them are they going to send you vorpal penciles? Cursed Boxer Shorts of Chafing? A vial of dragon whiz? I don't find random useless junk to be appealing or enticing.

Quote from: Azraele;1056120Probably cartoon show. I wonder if they poach Rebecca Sugar? Nothing like doing the D&D cartoon by way of Steven Universe

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Talentless pap that somehow gets a green light.

It makes you wonder just how talentless derivative unappealing shit like that gets the go ahead from the guys with the cash.

I mean, even the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, as bad as it was, wasn't as crap as that half-drawn half hearted garbage.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056189While I understand the points both of you are making, it is a question of focus for WotC. Is D&D a TTRPG to be played and enjoyed or is D&D an intellectual property to be exploited through means not associated with its gaming history? To me it looks more like the later in WotC's view.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. And likely the people involved in working on the actual game aren't much involved in putting together all of the other merchandise, and vice-versa.

I mean - just because the Deadpool movies are a success doesn't mean that they stopped publishing the Deadpool comics. Quite the opposite.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1056198Talentless pap that somehow gets a green light.

It makes you wonder just how talentless derivative unappealing shit like that gets the go ahead from the guys with the cash.

I mean, even the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon, as bad as it was, wasn't as crap as that half-drawn half hearted garbage.

The Cartoon was acually pretty well done even by todays standards. Or especially by todays standards. Especially the art, but even the writing tended to be well above the usual.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056202The two aren't mutually exclusive. And likely the people involved in working on the actual game aren't much involved in putting together all of the other merchandise, and vice-versa.

That's where it becomes a problem for me. T-shirts, books, and bumper stickers I can see because they allow you to represent your nerd passions. D&D is an interactive game, a tabletop role-playing game. Using the brand to sell merchandise like energy drinks, breakfast cereals, fast food restaurant kiddie meals, clothing lines, auto parts, cosmetics, hygiene items, jewelry, life insurance, replica armor, and replica weapons tells me that the suits are more interested in milking what they think is a cash cow instead of making a good game. It actually feels like WotC views D&D gaming as mere advertising for whatever they brand next with the D&D IP.

EDIT: Remember Gamer Soap? The soap that came with a d20 embedded in the center? That is the kind of thing I can see WotC coming up with for D&D branding.

Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class?

Quote from: jeff37923;1056212That's where it becomes a problem for me. T-shirts, books, and bumper stickers I can see because they allow you to represent your nerd passions. D&D is an interactive game, a tabletop role-playing game. Using the brand to sell merchandise like energy drinks, breakfast cereals, fast food restaurant kiddie meals, clothing lines, auto parts, cosmetics, hygiene items, jewelry, life insurance, replica armor, and replica weapons tells me that the suits are more interested in milking what they think is a cash cow instead of making a good game. It actually feels like WotC views D&D gaming as mere advertising for whatever they brand next with the D&D IP.

EDIT: Remember Gamer Soap? The soap that came with a d20 embedded in the center? That is the kind of thing I can see WotC coming up with for D&D branding.

Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class?

One of the problems WotC, really anybody in the "RPG Industry" (snerk) faces is the central reality that RPG books are super-favorable for their purchasers. I was given the paperback B/X books about five years ago; those books been performing at 100% functionality, providing thrilling games for their owner since their release in 1981 (i.e. five years before I was even goddamn born)

Unlike video games, which then (and today) were more expensive, harder to share, and significantly more limited, that product has been relevant and remains so. I mean hell, I own it because the OSR has been rocking that system for longer than my lifetime.

The structure of RPGs as products is a huge return in fun on your money. I recently bought a $50 book; I'll enjoy the thing, with my friends, for the remainder of my natural life.

That's awesome for me as a consumer, but it means as a seller that I'm never going to sell more than one book per customer ever. That's just the structural fact of how RPGs work as an entertainment product.

And as an investor? "You can leverage this property exactly one time!... Just once!" isn't a dividend-payer. Throwing money behind that would be moronic, when My Little Pony, Monopoly, and Christ almighty Magic:The Gathering are products from the same company.

So Hasbro's doing what any gigantic, hyper-rational corporation would do to make something structurally impossible to consistently leverage appealing to investors; they're figuring out how to monetize your fandom.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing; giant corporations are super-good at making things cheap, available, and immortal through commercial viability (like, McDonald's chicken nuggets aren't the tastiest things in the world, but there's never going to be a point in my life where I can't get some if I want).

It'd be awesome if I could walk into a Wal-Mart pick up a modern copy of B/X for $7.99, take it home to my kids, and play D&D like it was 1983; dice, maps, everything in there. Seeing that red box sold alongside Monopoly would bring a tear to my eye. If that's got to come along with a silly cartoon and Beholder coffee mugs? Eh, whatever.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056212Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class?

Indeed. Procter & Gamble beating up on nerds for being ugly and smelly. Let's all forget about the Rely tampons created by Procter & Gamble caused toxic shock syndrome in women using them.

That's feminism WotC style: ridicule smelly unnatractive men for shiggles while giving evil corporations like P&G a free pass on poisoning women for money.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1056219Indeed. Procter & Gamble beating up on nerds for being ugly and smelly. Let's all forget about the Rely tampons created by Procter & Gamble caused toxic shock syndrome in women using them.

That's feminism WotC style: ridicule smelly unnatractive men for shiggles while giving evil corporations like P&G a free pass on poisoning women for money.

Eugh, that is horrible. In other news, you added the word "shiggles" to my vocabulary today, so I am forever in your debt.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056212That's where it becomes a problem for me. T-shirts, books, and bumper stickers I can see because they allow you to represent your nerd passions. D&D is an interactive game, a tabletop role-playing game. Using the brand to sell merchandise like energy drinks, breakfast cereals, fast food restaurant kiddie meals, clothing lines, auto parts, cosmetics, hygiene items, jewelry, life insurance, replica armor, and replica weapons tells me that the suits are more interested in milking what they think is a cash cow instead of making a good game. It actually feels like WotC views D&D gaming as mere advertising for whatever they brand next with the D&D IP.

Even if all of those things come out - why are they any skin off your nose? Just don't buy them.

And what "suits"? You mean the people at Hasbro who like to make $? So... all of them? If they think that some random product is going to make them a good return - they'll make it.  But I don't see why them coming out with D&D toothpaste makes any difference to the quality of the rulebooks - except by making Hasbro that much more invested in keeping the production values high to maintain the brand's value. It's not as if they're going to take the D&D writers' time designing the Mindflayer spread's flavor.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056212
Or have we all forgotten about the Old Spice Gentleman Class?

I actually found that pretty funny.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1056224Even if all of those things come out - why are they any skin off your nose? Just don't buy them.

And what "suits"? You mean the people at Hasbro who like to make $? So... all of them? If they think that some random product is going to make them a good return - they'll make it.  But I don't see why them coming out with D&D toothpaste makes any difference to the quality of the rulebooks - except by making Hasbro that much more invested in keeping the production values high to maintain the brand's value. It's not as if they're going to take the D&D writers' time designing the Mindflayer spread's flavor.

Would you rather D&D be known for its brand of toothpaste or for its quality as a game when you are trying to gather players?

So much hyperbole being thrown about.

Quote from: jeff37923;1056230Would you rather D&D be known for its brand of toothpaste or for its quality as a game when you are trying to gather players?

Get a +20 on your saving throw against cavities with Dungeons and Dragons Brand Toothpaste!  Available in Minty Mage, Fireball, and new Refreshing Ranger flavor!

Quote from: Azraele;1056120... Probably cartoon show. I wonder if they poach Rebecca Sugar? Nothing like doing the D&D cartoon by way of Steven Universe

You are bad and should feel bad.