So now that classes are on the right track, let's turn to adding a dash of swashbuckling combat to B/X D&D.  Specifically, how do you add fighting styles and maneuvers into D&D's abstract combat round framework.  I like combat in B/X because its fast and regimented.  Roll initiative and just call for Ranged, Magic, and Melee in that order.  Keeps everything rolling right along.  A lot happens in a 10 second combat round, all of which is abstracted down to a single "to hit" and "damage" roll.  So how can we add slashes, lunges, feints, and other flashy maneuvers into the mix.  I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what others with more experience think.

One thing I'm thinking of doing is adding in Witch Hunter's stances.  These are simple and don't interfere with the flow of combat at all.  At the beginning of the round you choose a stance that gives you conditional bonuses for the round:

Aggressive Stance: Lower guard for an all out attack
Balanced Stance: No change
Defensive Stance: Reduce to hit to increase AC
Total Defense: No attack allowed, high bonus to AC

That fits into the basic framework nicely, I think.  You could even add to it a bit.  Maybe a Deceptive Stance to include a feint.  Or an Extended Stance for a Lunge.  I dunno.

So please, discuss!

Thanks,
Tom

So here's an example of what I'm thinking about right now.  Tell me what you think.  Borrows a bit from Honor and Intrigue, which should make Bren happy.  It also borrows a bit from the AGE game (Stunts).

As this is a swashbuckling game, most of the classes will have access to Fighting Styles.  The Fighter would be the most flexible, though the Scoundrel (Thief) would be no slouch either.

Fighting Styles have two ranks: Journeyman and Master.  When a character qualifies to learn a new school, he can instead choose to master in one he already has.  This improves his maneuvers.

On a successful attack roll, if the result is a modified 20, the combatant may choose to roll two damage dice, taking the better of the two, or perform one of his Style's maneuvers.  If the result is a natural 20, you get to do both.

Here's an example of a fighting style: the Spanish Style.
Origin: Spain
Weapons: Rapier, Sword, or Longsword
Maneuvers:
1.   Quick Cut: Add your Dexterity adj. to your damage roll.  Mastery: Dex adj. x2
2.   Footwork: –2 to your opponent’s next Attack roll.  Mastery: -4
3.   Riposte: If your opponent misses you on his attack, you may make an immediate counterattack, dealing an additional d4 damage.  Mastery: +d6 damage.
4.   Dodge: You reduce your opponent’s attack damage by 1 die type (minimum d4). (ie. a d6 to a d4, for instance).  Mastery: by 2 categories, with no minimum.
5.   Tag: You force a Morale roll from your opponent.  Mastery: -2 to this roll.

The idea here is that it keeps to the abstract nature of D&D combat, but puts a touch of swashbuckling dynamism in there.  Keeping the choice load light avoids choice paralysis.  Different styles have different maneuvers, and like a stance, you'd have to choose your style at the beginning of the round.  But instead of complicating things with multiple actions per round, or even some spot accounting, you just figure out if your rolled a modified 20+ and just choose a maneuver (or you could roll a d6, I suppose).

Thoughts?

Tom

A big question is how much mechanical complexity you want with various schools, techniques and the like.

One easy thing that can cover a variety of combat maneuvres is an opposed attack roll. Assuming ascending AC (you'd need to move the numbers around a bit for descending AC), both you and your target make an attack roll; but instead of comparing it to the other's AC, you compare the attacks to each other. If you exceed to opponent's roll by a certain margin (say, 5), you disarm him, trip him, pin his cloak to a tree, throw sand in his eyes or whatever. This is something you can do instead of a normal attack, so it has an opportunity cost: you've a round's chance to damage the opponent with a normal attack. Only works for tricks that armour won't protect against.

Another thing you can do with ascending AC and which is like your "stances" idea, is that when you start your round, you decide how many points of your attack bonus are applied your actual attack roll; the rest improve your AC for the round.

Premier,

I'm trying to add as little mechanical weight as possible with the schools. What you see in that example is about as much as I'm hoping to do. It's slightly more complex than your typical double damage for critical hits but not much. I am thinking that instead of a style giving you five maneuvers, a journeyman style will give you three and mastery three more. It'll cut down on choice paralysis and get players comfortable with the system faster.

As to opposed rolls, I'm not a fan because of the way I understand BX abstracts things. Instead, I'd rather have someone roll high, choose to trip the opponent, and give that a fast result. It shouldn't take 10 seconds to stand up, but maybe give your opponent's next attack a -2 penalty. Keeps it quick, dynamic, and moving. I could do it with opposed rolls, but I think that slows the game down a lot, especially when you can do things with Stances and AC.

Alternatively, I could make the game more player facing with an attack and defense roll. It's worth thinking about.

Tom

Dropping the free attack against retreating foes is one easy way to make combat more dynamic.  If people can move around in combat without being punished for it, combat will feel more cinematic.

Quote from: Blusponge;926099So now that classes are on the right track, let's turn to adding a dash of swashbuckling combat to B/X D&D.  Specifically, how do you add fighting styles and maneuvers into D&D's abstract combat round framework.  I like combat in B/X because its fast and regimented.  Roll initiative and just call for Ranged, Magic, and Melee in that order.  Keeps everything rolling right along.  A lot happens in a 10 second combat round, all of which is abstracted down to a single "to hit" and "damage" roll.  So how can we add slashes, lunges, feints, and other flashy maneuvers into the mix.  I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what others with more experience think.

One thing I'm thinking of doing is adding in Witch Hunter's stances.  These are simple and don't interfere with the flow of combat at all.  At the beginning of the round you choose a stance that gives you conditional bonuses for the round:

Aggressive Stance: Lower guard for an all out attack
Balanced Stance: No change
Defensive Stance: Reduce to hit to increase AC
Total Defense: No attack allowed, high bonus to AC

That fits into the basic framework nicely, I think.  You could even add to it a bit.  Maybe a Deceptive Stance to include a feint.  Or an Extended Stance for a Lunge.  I dunno.

So please, discuss!

Thanks,
Tom

You might take a look at the rules for Weapon Mastery and SKills in Rules Cyclopedia. Maybe use that as a base.

Quote from: Ronin;926426You might take a look at the rules for Weapon Mastery and SKills in Rules Cyclopedia. Maybe use that as a base.

Last time I looked at them, Ronin, they made my eyes bleed. But I'll take another look at them with a fresh pair of eyes today.

Another thing I could do, rather than have opposed rolls, would be to allow saving throws to some maneuvers. A knock down maneuver (corps a corps) for instance. This might require a poison save (maybe minus the combatant's strength adj) or be knocked down, which might limit options on the following round (lose initiative). Just a thought. These tools are already baked into the game so why not use them?

Another development: rather than a bunch of hard-wired modifiers, I'm playing with the idea of incorporating Advantage and Disadvantage from 5e into the mix.  I figured if the Black Hack could do it, why can't I.  I'm also messing around with using 3e's Saving Throw scheme (Fort/Reflex/Will), though I'm only 75% sold on the idea.  So, with that out of the way, here's my rough draft of fighting style maneuvers.  Each has a basic journeyman benefit and a Mastery benefit.  Let me know if you see anything horribly broken here.

Special Maneuvers: Some maneuvers do not require an attack roll with a modified 20.  They are considered conditionally active and negate other maneuvers.  These maneuvers are Glide and Quick Draw.

Beat: You knock your opponent’s blade aside, spoiling their next exchange.  Your opponent has Disadvantage on his next Attack against you.  Mastery: Your opponent has Disadvantage and does one die-type less damage on a successful attack.

Bind [Special]: You trap the enemy’s sword with your own blade.  Your opponent must make a Reflex save.  If he fails, he loses Initiative on the next Combat round and you gain Advantage to your attack.  Mastery: You may perform an immediate unarmed Attack with Advantage against your opponent in exchange for releasing the bind (your opponent suffers no penalties on the following round). [Special: Opponents with the Glide maneuver may negate this benefit.]

Cleave: If you deal a creature enough damage to incapacitate your opponent, you may immediately make an extra melee attack against another creature within melee range.  Mastery: If your extra attack succeeds, roll two damage dice and take the better of the two.

Disarm: You rip your opponent’s weapon from his grasp.  He may recover it, but loses Initiative against you on the next exchange. Mastery: You may spend a Fortune point to take the weapon from your opponent, forcing a Morale check in addition to losing Initiative. [Special: Opponents with the Quick Draw maneuver may negate this benefit.]

Dodge: Double your Dexterity adjustment to your AC for the next Round.  Mastery: Triple your Dexterity adjustment to your AC for the next Round.

Feint: Your blade zigs when the foe thinks it was going to zag. Your opponent suffers damage as usual and you gain Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature. If that attack hits, roll an additional damage die and take the best result.  Mastery: Your attack does an additional d4 damage.

Footwork: You reduce your opponent’s attack damage by 1 die type (minimum d4). (ie. a d6 to a d4, for instance).  Mastery: by 2 categories, with no minimum.

Glide [Special]: When your weapon is in a Bind, you slide your sword around theirs and attack anyway.  You may negate an opponent’s Bind maneuver with no penalty.

Hilt Punch: You hit the opponent with the pommel, butt, or haft of your weapon.  You do additional d4 damage and your opponent must make a Fortitude save or have Disadvantage on the next combat round.  Mastery: If your opponent fails his Fortitude save, he loses his next turn against you.

Lunge: You leap forward in an all-out attack.  Your attack does double the damage rolled but the following round you lose Initiative and any Dexterity adjustment to your Defense score.  Mastery: You may spend a Fortune Point to either keep your Dexterity adjustment to your Defense OR roll Initiative normally.

Quick Cut: You make multiple quick cuts at the foe. Add your Dexterity adj. to your damage roll.  Mastery: Dex adj. x2

Quick Draw [Special]: You arm yourself quickly. Drawing a new weapon does not cost you Initiative.

Riposte: If your opponent misses you on his attack, you riposte for d4 damage.  Mastery: Your riposte deals d6 damage.

Shove/Trip: You ram the opponent with your shoulder or sweep their foot, knocking him off his feet or against the rails.  Your opponent loses Initiative on the next Combat round.  Mastery: You gain Advantage to your Attack on the next Combat round as well.

Stop-Thrust: Rather than blocking your opponent’s attack, you draw him in close to impale him upon your blade. Attacks on the following Combat round happen simultaneously and you have Disadvantage to your attack.  If your attack succeeds, double any rolled weapon damage.  If your opponent survives, his attack hits automatically (roll anyway to see if a maneuver is possible or critical success occurs). Mastery: On a successful Reflex save, your opponent must roll to Attack normally.

Sweep: You swing your weapon around in a great arc. In additional to your original opponent, choose another target within melee range. If the original attack roll would hit the second target, it takes damage one die type less than normal.  Mastery: The second target takes damage normally for your attack.

Tag: You use your blade to write your initials, slash off an enemy’s mustache, put out a candle, or some other impressive act. This forces a Morale roll from an NPC opponent. Mastery: Your opponent has Disadvantage to this roll.

Beyond the Wall uses stances as an option in combat. Aggressive stance gets you a bonus to hit, Defensive stance gets you a bonus to armor class, Commanding stance gives you a wicked penalty to AC, but all your allies get a bonus to hit.

I think your list of special maneuvers look detailed enough to give a swashbuckling flavor, but simple enough not to overly slow play.  I presume different fighting styles will have different sets of maneuvers available to them.

 It might be worth considering whether anyone will find it to their advantage to make a regular attack roll instead of using a special maneuver. This could be a "most NCs use standard attacks" simplicity. And if you want lots of flashy swordplay, everybody using a special maneuver on every attack might be just fine.

Well all "attacks" are normal. If you roll a modified 20+ you may choose to roll 2 damage dice and take the better if the two or use a maneuver. If you roll a natural 20, you do both.  This probably needs a bit of fine tuning, but the idea is there really isn't a bad choice. There's no trap. If you're fighting a nasty ogre, it might make more sense to soften him up before laying on the style, but maybe not. Plus, since you do damage AND a maneuver, it's not like you ever get left with nothing.

And yes, each style would have 3 maneuvers at journeyman level, 5 or 6 at mastery. Right now, I'm thinking fighters get to choose a new style every 3 levels, or choose one they already know to master in. Duelists start with an additional style.

So yeah, if you look at these and think, why would I ever just take the damage roll, let me know because it needs some sweetening.