OK, I've seen this come up several times about how it's bullshit all a PC needs to reach level 2 is to kill 3 hobgoblins.  Well, let's just look objectively how it pans out.

Hobgoblin
HP: 2d8+2,   AC: 18
Attacks: melee (+3, 1d8+1).  Missile (+3, 1d8+1)
Special:  Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's ally


So I guess it's pretty even when comparing to a level 1 fighter, and in a white room with only 1-on-1, the hobgoblin doesn't get the extra damage.  When they are in formation or in a group is when they will destroy level 1 PCs due to that extra 2d6 damage on each attack.

In typical play, you're going to have about 4 PCs in a group fighting more than one hobgoblin.  In order for any of those PCs to level up to level 2, since XP is divided, they have to kill 12 of them.  I have a hard time seeing that happening, even if they are on a one-to-one basis (3 battles of 4 hobgoblins each).  Their CR is 1/2, meaning a party of 4 level 1 PCs should attack no more than 2 hobgoblins and it will still be not an easy task.  I can see that, looking at the numbers.

All that being said, is moving to level 2 after a half dozen encounters too fast?  I can see how a lot of people would say yes.  But also keep in mind that level progression from 1 to 3 is designed to be really fast due to the classes not really coming into their own until level 3, with the level 1 and 2 being "getting the feel" mode.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763894All that being said, is moving to level 2 after a half dozen encounters too fast?  I can see how a lot of people would say yes.  But also keep in mind that level progression from 1 to 3 is designed to be really fast due to the classes not really coming into their own until level 3, with the level 1 and 2 being "getting the feel" mode.

Yes, without a doubt.  I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values.  10th level in 10 sessions is insane.  You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?

Yeah, i've always liked slower progression. I want at least 5 or 6 sessions at each level personally.

It's easily changed if you're not following official scenarios.

Why does a hobgoblin have the AC of a green dragon?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;763896Yes, without a doubt.  I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values.  10th level in 10 sessions is insane.  You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?

You have close to that same problem in 4E and 3.x/Pathfinder. Rapid advancement gives you a more powerful character, but not a more skilled Player.

For added context, going from level 9 to 10 you need 16,000 XP.  So if a level 1 PC needs to kill 3 hobgoblins to get level 2, a level 9 PC needs to kill 5 young green dragons (CR to reach level 10.

Young Green Dragon:
HP: 16d10+48     AC: 18
Attacks: Bite (+7, 2d10+4, plus 2d6 poison), 2ea claws (+7, 2d6+4)
Special: poison breath (12d6)

Level 9 fighter:
HP: 9d10+18 (Con bonus)      AC: 20 (+/- 1)
Attacks: 2 attacks (+9, 1d8+5)--figuring prof bonus, +4 ability mod +1 magic weapon
special: action surge to double attacks once.  second wind (1d10+9) one time.  Indomitable (reroll a failed save)

So really, I think you're looking at a party of 4 level 9 to beat that dragon, which means you have to kill 20 of them to make it to level 10.  I'm OK with that.  XP progression is fast at first, but slows down

Multiply the XP charts by 10, problem solved.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;763905Why does a hobgoblin have the AC of a green dragon?

Bounded accuracy.  The hobgoblin is in heavy armor and shield.  In AD&D terms, it's like the hobgoblin having AC2--close to a dragon's.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;763896Yes, without a doubt.  I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values.  10th level in 10 sessions is insane.  You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?

I doubt that a party will get to level 10 in ten game sessions.

The xp charts would have to be very broken for that to be remotely possible.

Quote from: Bill;763932I doubt that a party will get to level 10 in ten game sessions.

The xp charts would have to be very broken for that to be remotely possible.

I bring that up because I've heard/seen "One level per session" bandied about.

The adventure in the Starter Box has a green dragon worth 2000XP if driven away, 3900XP if defeated, with the caveat, "Given their level, the characters aren't likely to slay the dragon." This looks like the type of adventure that will take many, many sessions of play, and will probably put a party of 4 at about 4th level if they are successful at every turn. So, yeah, the box is exactly what it claims to be.

Not many PCs have gas masks.  So I suspect they'll be like this guy in short order trying to fight that thing.

Which, I should note is about damned time players get out of this "every encounter should be able to be beat in combat" mindset that 4e pushed.

I'm generally into 5E, both in theory and in practice now that there are final materials to look at. But I want to go on record as hating abilities like the Hobgoblin situational damage bonus. It is exactly the sort of meta, card-game-y stuff that bugged the shit out of me in 4E. 'Ha ha, gotcha! you are 2 feet from my zone of control and 6 feet from the nearest bucket so I get to automatically do you 900 points of damage!' I was hoping (and kind of assuming) this wouldn't cary over to 5E.

Quote from: Larsdangly;763947I'm generally into 5E, both in theory and in practice now that there are final materials to look at. But I want to go on record as hating abilities like the Hobgoblin situational damage bonus. It is exactly the sort of meta, card-game-y stuff that bugged the shit out of me in 4E. 'Ha ha, gotcha! you are 2 feet from my zone of control and 6 feet from the nearest bucket so I get to automatically do you 900 points of damage!' I was hoping (and kind of assuming) this wouldn't cary over to 5E.

Just ignore it.  I'm going to.

Quote from: Larsdangly;763947I'm generally into 5E, both in theory and in practice now that there are final materials to look at. But I want to go on record as hating abilities like the Hobgoblin situational damage bonus. It is exactly the sort of meta, card-game-y stuff that bugged the shit out of me in 4E. 'Ha ha, gotcha! you are 2 feet from my zone of control and 6 feet from the nearest bucket so I get to automatically do you 900 points of damage!' I was hoping (and kind of assuming) this wouldn't cary over to 5E.

I'm not worried about that because hobgoblins have always been the organized warfare humanoids, and like roman soldiers, they are much more effective when next to an ally.  That extra effectiveness translates into more efficient attacks (more damage).

shrug.  To each their own.