OK, I've seen this come up several times about how it's bullshit all a PC needs to reach level 2 is to kill 3 hobgoblins. Well, let's just look objectively how it pans out.
Hobgoblin
HP: 2d8+2, AC: 18
Attacks: melee (+3, 1d8+1). Missile (+3, 1d8+1)
Special: Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's ally
So I guess it's pretty even when comparing to a level 1 fighter, and in a white room with only 1-on-1, the hobgoblin doesn't get the extra damage. When they are in formation or in a group is when they will destroy level 1 PCs due to that extra 2d6 damage on each attack.
In typical play, you're going to have about 4 PCs in a group fighting more than one hobgoblin. In order for any of those PCs to level up to level 2, since XP is divided, they have to kill 12 of them. I have a hard time seeing that happening, even if they are on a one-to-one basis (3 battles of 4 hobgoblins each). Their CR is 1/2, meaning a party of 4 level 1 PCs should attack no more than 2 hobgoblins and it will still be not an easy task. I can see that, looking at the numbers.
All that being said, is moving to level 2 after a half dozen encounters too fast? I can see how a lot of people would say yes. But also keep in mind that level progression from 1 to 3 is designed to be really fast due to the classes not really coming into their own until level 3, with the level 1 and 2 being "getting the feel" mode.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763894All that being said, is moving to level 2 after a half dozen encounters too fast? I can see how a lot of people would say yes. But also keep in mind that level progression from 1 to 3 is designed to be really fast due to the classes not really coming into their own until level 3, with the level 1 and 2 being "getting the feel" mode.
Yes, without a doubt. I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values. 10th level in 10 sessions is insane. You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?
Yeah, i've always liked slower progression. I want at least 5 or 6 sessions at each level personally.
It's easily changed if you're not following official scenarios.
Why does a hobgoblin have the AC of a green dragon?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763896Yes, without a doubt. I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values. 10th level in 10 sessions is insane. You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?
You have close to that same problem in 4E and 3.x/Pathfinder. Rapid advancement gives you a more powerful character, but not a more skilled Player.
For added context, going from level 9 to 10 you need 16,000 XP. So if a level 1 PC needs to kill 3 hobgoblins to get level 2, a level 9 PC needs to kill 5 young green dragons (CR 8) to reach level 10.
Young Green Dragon:
HP: 16d10+48 AC: 18
Attacks: Bite (+7, 2d10+4, plus 2d6 poison), 2ea claws (+7, 2d6+4)
Special: poison breath (12d6)
Level 9 fighter:
HP: 9d10+18 (Con bonus) AC: 20 (+/- 1)
Attacks: 2 attacks (+9, 1d8+5)--figuring prof bonus, +4 ability mod +1 magic weapon
special: action surge to double attacks once. second wind (1d10+9) one time. Indomitable (reroll a failed save)
So really, I think you're looking at a party of 4 level 9 to beat that dragon, which means you have to kill 20 of them to make it to level 10. I'm OK with that. XP progression is fast at first, but slows down
Multiply the XP charts by 10, problem solved.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;763905Why does a hobgoblin have the AC of a green dragon?
Bounded accuracy. The hobgoblin is in heavy armor and shield. In AD&D terms, it's like the hobgoblin having AC2--close to a dragon's.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763896Yes, without a doubt. I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values. 10th level in 10 sessions is insane. You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?
I doubt that a party will get to level 10 in ten game sessions.
The xp charts would have to be very broken for that to be remotely possible.
Quote from: Bill;763932I doubt that a party will get to level 10 in ten game sessions.
The xp charts would have to be very broken for that to be remotely possible.
I bring that up because I've heard/seen "One level per session" bandied about.
The adventure in the Starter Box has a green dragon worth 2000XP if driven away, 3900XP if defeated, with the caveat, "Given their level, the characters aren't likely to slay the dragon." This looks like the type of adventure that will take many, many sessions of play, and will probably put a party of 4 at about 4th level if they are successful at every turn. So, yeah, the box is exactly what it claims to be.
Not many PCs have gas masks. So I suspect they'll be like this guy in short order trying to fight that thing.
Which, I should note is about damned time players get out of this "every encounter should be able to be beat in combat" mindset that 4e pushed.
(http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/0/S/3/wwi18.gif)
I'm generally into 5E, both in theory and in practice now that there are final materials to look at. But I want to go on record as hating abilities like the Hobgoblin situational damage bonus. It is exactly the sort of meta, card-game-y stuff that bugged the shit out of me in 4E. 'Ha ha, gotcha! you are 2 feet from my zone of control and 6 feet from the nearest bucket so I get to automatically do you 900 points of damage!' I was hoping (and kind of assuming) this wouldn't cary over to 5E.
Quote from: Larsdangly;763947I'm generally into 5E, both in theory and in practice now that there are final materials to look at. But I want to go on record as hating abilities like the Hobgoblin situational damage bonus. It is exactly the sort of meta, card-game-y stuff that bugged the shit out of me in 4E. 'Ha ha, gotcha! you are 2 feet from my zone of control and 6 feet from the nearest bucket so I get to automatically do you 900 points of damage!' I was hoping (and kind of assuming) this wouldn't cary over to 5E.
Just ignore it. I'm going to.
Quote from: Larsdangly;763947I'm generally into 5E, both in theory and in practice now that there are final materials to look at. But I want to go on record as hating abilities like the Hobgoblin situational damage bonus. It is exactly the sort of meta, card-game-y stuff that bugged the shit out of me in 4E. 'Ha ha, gotcha! you are 2 feet from my zone of control and 6 feet from the nearest bucket so I get to automatically do you 900 points of damage!' I was hoping (and kind of assuming) this wouldn't cary over to 5E.
I'm not worried about that because hobgoblins have always been the organized warfare humanoids, and like roman soldiers, they are much more effective when next to an ally. That extra effectiveness translates into more efficient attacks (more damage).
shrug. To each their own.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763936I bring that up because I've heard/seen "One level per session" bandied about.
For the first two levels, which are meant to be training wheel levels.
The devs have said they expect a full level 1-20 campaign should run a college year of weekly sessions. I personally think that's too fast. But then, I still don't understand why they designed a level 1-20 game when apparently only a fraction of D&D campaigns last past level 10.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763896Yes, without a doubt. I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values. 10th level in 10 sessions is insane. You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?
Depends on the type of games you run. I can't seem to run a game that does not go 30+ sessions, most a lot more. that would never work for me.
Quote from: LordVreeg;763969Depends on the type of games you run. I can't seem to run a game that does not go 30+ sessions, most a lot more. that would never work for me.
I gotcha, dude, if that's your thing. Like you said, depends on the type of game.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763970I gotcha, dude, if that's your thing. Like you said, depends on the type of game.
Think he meant 10 levels in 10 sessions would never work for him.
Quote from: CRKrueger;763981Think he meant 10 levels in 10 sessions would never work for him.
Actually, I meant both. 10 levels in 10 sessions won't work for me because I end up running such long games. I literally play a game with each skill having it's own experience and level so that there are little levels broken regularly, so as to allow for lots of very slow growth. this ideal above can't work, when you average well over 50 sessions in a campaign or game.
I'd like to play it raw before monkeying with it; imo w/the hobgob's, stay out of their danger zone.
Quote from: dragoner;764017I'd like to play it raw before monkeying with it; imo w/the hobgob's, stay out of their danger zone.
"Show me on the doll where the hobgoblin touched your danger zone."
Quote from: Sacrosanct;764025"Show me on the doll where the hobgoblin touched your danger zone."
It's worse, much much worse, it's a Kenny Loggins song ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK0P1Bk8Cx4
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763936I bring that up because I've heard/seen "One level per session" bandied about.
Interestingly enough, that's what Dave Arneson was using, at least in 2006.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?286043-Dave-Arneson-Blackmoor-and-Me!
I've used it for OD&D campaigns for groups who only meet once/month and it works really great, especially with max 10 levels. I am not sure how it would
work if I had a weekly group.
QuoteSpecial: Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's ally
Quote from: Larsdangly;763947But I want to go on record as hating abilities like the Hobgoblin situational damage bonus. It is exactly the sort of meta, card-game-y stuff that bugged the shit out of me in 4E. 'Ha ha, gotcha! you are 2 feet from my zone of control and 6 feet from the nearest bucket so I get to automatically do you 900 points of damage!' I was hoping (and kind of assuming) this wouldn't cary over to 5E.
Shit, I agree with you 100%. I'm assuming a
turn is 10min...
- why use once every 10 mins? is that extra 2d6 damage so exhausting that I need the refresh? This sounds like some sort of nitro-boost meta game crap. Magic and magic-like abilities I can at least understand having a use-per-time, but this seems to just be a fuck-you trump card that the hobgoblin can play.
- does the ally have to be another hobgobin that the attacker trained with?
- can my party train in formation to gain the same 2d6 damage ability?
- it is a shit move for a DM to pull this on players who are playing well and trying to use tactics, skill, and creativity to defeat the hobgoblins.
I mean, yeah, I can just leave it out of my game. But my list of things to leave out of my game is getting pretty long. Instead, if/when I get around to running 5e, I think I'll do it as close to RAW as I can and let the game live or die on its own merits.
Quote from: languagegeek;764281Shit, I agree with you 100%. I'm assuming a turn is 10min...
It's not, Turn = round
As for the rest, what counts as an ally is in the hands of the DM. Rogues get a very similar power (Sneak Attack) which works when fighting in formation, so yes players can kind of get it with the right training. Whether or not you find abilities like this acceptable at the table is probably down to play-style.
... Its basically Sneak Attack 2d6 guys (though a little more restricted). Like a 3rd level Rogue has. I'm not sure why people are freaking out over this.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;763896Yes, without a doubt. I would stick to an older edition's (1e, 2e, basic's) XP tables and XP values. 10th level in 10 sessions is insane. You might have 10th level characters after 10 sessions but do you have players who can play at that level of challenge?
Theres an ooooold MMO called Anarchy Online.
One of the problems in it was that players could level up very quickly and for reasons unknown the devs removed a mandatory starter zone.
So you ended up with mid range level characters run by players who had no damn clue how to actually play. They just speed leveled based on a spreadsheet and then got wiped out by players who actually took the time to learn things.
I think the current progression is ok. Personally I'd have added say 50% more exp to the requirements. But as is things slow down after around level 5. Still feels a bit fast. But eh.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763945Which, I should note is about damned time players get out of this "every encounter should be able to be beat in combat" mindset that 4e pushed.
To be fair, I think that started early in 3e's lifetime.
I'm not bothered by the experience progression as presented because it's so very, very trivial to just substitute in some other XP table.
And it should definitely be emphasised that stuff does seem to slow down a LOT when you hit 5th level, and in fact compared to both 3E and 4E you actually need much more XP to hit 20th. Check it out:
(http://i.imgur.com/dc1NjI4.png)
Compared to 3E, in 5E you need about the same number of XP to go from level 4 to level 5 (4000 vs. 3800), and substantially more XP for every level increase after that; in terms of total XP, 5E overtakes 3E at level 7.
It's even more stark compared to 4E (possibly due to 4E being calibrated for a 1-30 scale, and to have you hit level 30 at a cool 1 million XP). Comparing with 4E, in 5E you need a little more XP to go from level 3 to level 4, and masses more XP for every level increase after that, and the 5E table overtakes the 4E table at level 5.
(Of course, with earlier editions you needed millions of XP to hit 20th, mind, but a comparison there is more difficult because you didn't have a unified XP progression.)
It occurs to me that if you wanted a slower early progression, a quick and simple fix would to be to use the 3E target numbers for levels 1-5, and then use the standard 5E progression from then on. If you wanted even slower progression it requires more tinkering, but that's easy enough to do.
Another thing I've noticed: note how the 5E table throws in curveballs at the distinctions between tiers. To go from level 4 to level 5 it's a big jump. To go from level 10 to level 11 (the distinction between competent, hardened adventurers and Big Ass Heroes) is a huge leap - the gulf is actually greater than between level 11 and level 12, or 12 and 13, or 13 and 14, presumably to represent just how big a sea change in the campaign getting to high level is. To go from level 16 to 17 (Big Ass Heroes to walking demigods), conversely, is about as easy as going from 15 to 16, presumably because you're getting to the point where your character's power plateaus.
Quote from: dragoner;764017I'd like to play it raw before monkeying with it; imo w/the hobgob's, stay out of their danger zone.
http://youtu.be/d3D7Y_ycSms
Quote from: languagegeek;764281Shit, I agree with you 100%. I'm assuming a turn is 10min...
- why use once every 10 mins? is that extra 2d6 damage so exhausting that I need the refresh? This sounds like some sort of nitro-boost meta game crap. Magic and magic-like abilities I can at least understand having a use-per-time, but this seems to just be a fuck-you trump card that the hobgoblin can play.
- does the ally have to be another hobgobin that the attacker trained with?
- can my party train in formation to gain the same 2d6 damage ability?
- it is a shit move for a DM to pull this on players who are playing well and trying to use tactics, skill, and creativity to defeat the hobgoblins.
I mean, yeah, I can just leave it out of my game. But my list of things to leave out of my game is getting pretty long. Instead, if/when I get around to running 5e, I think I'll do it as close to RAW as I can and let the game live or die on its own merits.
If it is a damage bonus each melee round, representing Hobgoblins fighting well as a team, I like it.
Just makes Hobgoblins dangerous.
I think it's been touched on, but I'm quoting it for those without access to the starter set:
QuoteChallenge - An appropriately equipped and well rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a creature that has a challenge rating equal to their party level without suffering any casualties.
So that 'Challenge 1' 100XP is intended to get divided by four. You'll need twelve hobgoblins to level in a party of four in one go, IF that's how the Challenge stacks. (No word on that yet.)
Note, too, that in 3e Hobs were CR 1/2. 'Challenge 1/2' still exists, e.g. Zombies. And zombies were 1/2 in 3e.
So it's pretty clear they believe that Hobs got buffed.
That leaves us with two basic misconceptions worth testing:
1) That level 2 is trivial to obtain.
2) That old edition hobgoblins are not weaker than the current edition.
Quote from: mcbobbo;764344That leaves us with two basic misconceptions worth testing:
1) That level 2 is trivial to obtain.
2) That old edition hobgoblins are not weaker than the current edition.
Supposedly levels 2 and 3 ARE trivial to obtain by design. Apparently enough players didn't feel like big enough damn heroes at level 1 to spend any appreciable time at that level.
Groups can adjust XP to any pace they please but I think the pace is too rapid for brand new players. Just when you are starting to get familiar with your abilities in a couple of encounters >>>>whooosh>>>> level 2! You get new abilities then level 3 comes along almost as fast.
Its a bit fast for players new to the concept of an rpg, but its great for veterans that don't enjoy being the stableboy.
Won't be a problem for me but I don't see getting to level 2 'quickly' as ideal for a real novice.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;764353Supposedly levels 2 and 3 ARE trivial to obtain by design. Apparently enough players didn't feel like big enough damn heroes at level 1 to spend any appreciable time at that level.
Groups can adjust XP to any pace they please but I think the pace is too rapid for brand new players. Just when you are starting to get familiar with your abilities in a couple of encounters >>>>whooosh>>>> level 2! You get new abilities then level 3 comes along almost as fast.
Then the design may have failed. TWELVE combats, at say ten minutes each is two hours of just fighting Hobgoblins. You could possibly do it in a single night, but that night would be pretty boring.
Haven't played it yet, though, so we'll see.
Quote from: Warthur;764312I'm not bothered by the experience progression as presented because it's so very, very trivial to just substitute in some other XP table.
And it should definitely be emphasised that stuff does seem to slow down a LOT when you hit 5th level, and in fact compared to both 3E and 4E you actually need much more XP to hit 20th. Check it out:
(http://i.imgur.com/dc1NjI4.png)
Compared to 3E, in 5E you need about the same number of XP to go from level 4 to level 5 (4000 vs. 3800), and substantially more XP for every level increase after that; in terms of total XP, 5E overtakes 3E at level 7.
It's even more stark compared to 4E (possibly due to 4E being calibrated for a 1-30 scale, and to have you hit level 30 at a cool 1 million XP). Comparing with 4E, in 5E you need a little more XP to go from level 3 to level 4, and masses more XP for every level increase after that, and the 5E table overtakes the 4E table at level 5.
(Of course, with earlier editions you needed millions of XP to hit 20th, mind, but a comparison there is more difficult because you didn't have a unified XP progression.)
It occurs to me that if you wanted a slower early progression, a quick and simple fix would to be to use the 3E target numbers for levels 1-5, and then use the standard 5E progression from then on. If you wanted even slower progression it requires more tinkering, but that's easy enough to do.
This is a very important point: a lot of gamers see 300xp and assume everything has just been cheapened. That's not the point; while it is clear that the idea is to accommodate fast progression for groups which can't or don't want to play extremely lengthy campaigns, another vital reason for the xp spread in 5e being the way it is was so that it extends the "sweet spot", the part that the apparent majority of D&D fans like the very most out of any campaign, which is the mid-levels.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Bill;764342If it is a damage bonus each melee round, representing Hobgoblins fighting well as a team, I like it.
Just makes Hobgoblins dangerous.
I have an issue with it and liek others I find it a little gamist.
If Hobgoblins get a benefit from fighing in a formation then the system should give benefits for fighting in formation and these should be improved AC, improved to hit or additional attacks or similar.
These benefits should be avialabel to anyone that fights in formation.
If the benefit is a damage bonus I am going to question it.
A roll to hit in combat is what? A successful hit is what?
If a roll is a single blow, and a success is a hit with a weapon then extra damage can only be due to accuracy and hitting a vital area or to hitting with more force.
Standing next to one of my mates isn't going to increase my accuracy or make me hit harder. It might make you easier to hit because your movementis restricted, or give me a bonus to hit as we use some sort of training, it might make me harder to hit due to a shield wall or defensive positioning or whatever. Additional damage simply doesn't make sense in the game world in only makes sense in the GAME.
So extra damage - Sneak attack to the vitals, called shots, charge, set to receive charge, penetrating weapon perhaps, - formation doesn't make sense it's in the same ball park as damage on a miss.
Quote from: dragoner;764030It's worse, much much worse, it's a Kenny Loggins song ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK0P1Bk8Cx4
Hob-GOB-lin in your dangerzone!
Quote from: Maltese Changeling;766284Hob-GOB-lin in your dangerzone!
I hope that song doesn't stick with me in game. lol!
Quote from: jibbajibba;766280If Hobgoblins get a benefit from fighting in a formation then the system should give benefits for fighting in formation and these should be improved AC, improved to hit or additional attacks or similar.
These benefits should be avialabel to anyone that fights in formation.
If the benefit is a damage bonus I am going to question it.
Yeah, it seems like some other sort of adjustment would be better for disciplined formation fighters. AC bonus, immunity to player advantage (if that's a dial you can turn in 5e), getting an opportunity attack on anyone who strikes his cohort... I'd even rather give them temp hp for fighting in formation, I think. I'd have to see the kinds of abilities monsters generally have though.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763894Hobgoblin
HP: 2d8+2, AC: 18
Attacks: melee (+3, 1d8+1). Missile (+3, 1d8+1)
Special: Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's ally
So I guess it's pretty even when comparing to a level 1 fighter . . .
Whoa, really?
Can anyone explain the
point of this stat inflation?
Quote from: Phillip;766355Can anyone explain the point of this stat inflation?
Mainly, its because the level range most games experience has gone higher and higher over the years. Having lots of very weak critters worked for TSR D&D, because you probably never saw level 7.
In 3rd edition, you ended up with a monster manual were your pretty much had to add class levels to most of the iconic evil humanoids, because they were all pretty similar and pretty much outclassed.
4e tried to fix it with a ton of mechanics I am not going to go into here, but minion, elite, solo categories were a big part of it.
What 5e is trying to do (and I don't think we know they have pulled it off yet) is to try and make the majority of the monsters continue to be a relevant threat throughout the game. So the Hobgoblin is tougher than hers previous incarnation, shes got double the Hit Die and a lot of AC. Shes also got a backstab ability that means shes a lot more dangerous in groups. Hopefully this means when you attack a level 8 party which a bucketful of these, they won't just laugh in your face.
No, that's not the question. It doesn't look like the answer, either!
How does jacking up a 1st level fighter to the equal of a hobgoblin, and both to at least the equal of an old 2nd level fighter (equipped with plate-mail and shield, no less?), make it tougher on presumably now even higher-level "high-level" figures -- which must, I assume, also be jacked up in order for those levels to mean anything?
Setting aside the apparent contradiction of the aim, why try to do that in the first place? Isn't it the point of being higher level that formerly fearsome foes are no longer such threats, and one can, you know, venture into the deeper dungeons to take on elder dragons, balrogs, vampire wizards, lich lords, demon princes, etc.?
Quote from: Phillip;766370No, that's not the question. It doesn't look like the answer, either!
That's o.k. I am willing to give it another go.
QuoteHow does jacking up a 1st level fighter to the equal of a hobgoblin, and both to at least the equal of an old 2nd level fighter (equipped with plate-mail and shield, no less?), make it tougher on presumably now even higher-level "high-level" figures -- which must, I assume, also be jacked up in order for those levels to mean anything?
Not sure where you get the idea that a 1st level fighter is equal to a Hobgoblin? Because a first level fighter is probably going to get mauled to death by a hobgoblin. A Hobgoblin is now about equivalent to two level 1 characters or a level 2 character.
QuoteSetting aside the apparent contradiction of the aim, why try to do that in the first place?
They have not, see above.
QuoteIsn't it the point of being higher level that formerly fearsome foes are no longer such threats, and one can, you know, venture into the deeper dungeons to take on elder dragons, balrogs, vampire wizards, lich lords, demon princes, etc.?
depends what you mean by 'such threats'. Personally I find MMORPG style leveling where everything below you is irrelevant makes a very dull game. I want leveling to make me better than I was, but I prefer to get better gradually rather than in massive great big chunks. Obviously others may have different preferences.
Quote from: Phillip;766370No, that's not the question. It doesn't look like the answer, either!
How does jacking up a 1st level fighter to the equal of a hobgoblin, and both to at least the equal of an old 2nd level fighter (equipped with plate-mail and shield, no less?), make it tougher on presumably now even higher-level "high-level" figures -- which must, I assume, also be jacked up in order for those levels to mean anything?
Setting aside the apparent contradiction of the aim, why try to do that in the first place? Isn't it the point of being higher level that formerly fearsome foes are no longer such threats, and one can, you know, venture into the deeper dungeons to take on elder dragons, balrogs, vampire wizards, lich lords, demon princes, etc.?
I think its noit really equal to a 1st level fighter its really equal to a 2nd level fighter or 1/2 way between the 2
Here is Emperor Nortons elf figther from teh Chargen thread (complete with awesom stats)
Lorethain
Chaotic Good High Elf Fighter
Str 18 (+4) Dex 18 (+4) Con 14 (+2) Int 18 (+4) Wis 11 (+0) Cha 9 (-1)
HP 12, AC 16, Initiative +4
Longsword: +6, 1d8+6, Melee
Dagger: +6, 1d4+6, Melee
Longbow: +6, 1d8+4, Range (150/600)This guy is better than a 1e fighter (sans UA) but if you remove the stat boost not a lot better
The Hobgoblin with
Hobgoblin
HP: 2d8+2, AC: 18
Attacks: melee (+3, 1d8+1). Missile (+3, 1d8+1)
Special: Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's allyIs getting +1 to hit on the fighter (sans strength adjustment) similar HP a better AC and that big tactical damage bonus which if you look at the numbers is massive.
By comparison a 1e elf fighter using max HPs at first level and the same stats would have
Lorethain
Chaotic Good High Elf Fighter
Str 18(01) (+1,+3) Dex 18 (+3) Con 14 (+0) Int 18 Wis 11 Cha 9
HP 10, AC 1 (chain and shield + 3 dex) , Initiative +3
Longsword: +3, 1d8+3, Melee (+1 to hit from Str +1 for being and elf +1 for 1st level fighter compared to the base line of 0 level fighter)
Dagger: +2, 1d4+3, Melee
Longbow: +5, 1d8+3, 2 shots per round, Range (150/600)So the 1e guy (with min Strength bonus on those stats) has less HPs, better AC, lower chance to hit and comparably lower damage.
If you add UA to this its a huge shift and double spec at first level makes hte 1e guy way tougher because of additional attacks.
So hobgoblin is weak (well still tougher than it was at it now has 2hd not 1) alone but devastating in groups.
I don't like the extra damage by the way but not from a gamist "damage bloat = bad" model but from the dissociated mechanics perspective.
Also, keep in mind my fighter had crazy rolls and has monster stats.
Personally I would have preferred they got an AC bonus btw (the hobgoblins). But it looks like they are giving all the goblinoids rogue tricks instead.
Quote from: jadrax;766374Not sure where you get the idea that a 1st level fighter is equal to a Hobgoblin?
From the Sacrosanct post I quoted; see the final line.
QuoteThey have not, see above.
I was referring to them doing just what
you claimed they were doing; see your own words.
QuoteObviously others may have different preferences.
My preference is for D&D to be D&D. There are literally hundreds of rules sets that are something else.
Anyway, inflation
could flatten the slope a lot in terms of HP,
if they weren't jacking those up for higher levels as well (which iirc they are, with perpetual HD and constitution bonuses). On attack rolls, it just makes all the numbers bigger -- "Ours go to eleven!" -- unless I'm missing something?
The idea is instead of "always fighting orcs" where they are metaphorical, it's always fighting literal orcs. :D
Instead of the 3e method where only an uber-specialist has the appropriate skill, and everyone else can barely even attempt something with a 50 DC on a d20 for example, the math is flattened.
But if I can't make a Venerable Great Red Wyrm with an AC so high only a perfect feat chain build can even hit it, then how do I make a VGRW tough? By giving it 3.5 million hit points, but you will be able to hit it even at much lower level then you should be.
It's the 4e problem all over again, just partially mitigated...they hope.
People are calling this 3e-lite, it's way way more like 4e-lite, and dispite Mearls' lip service to acceptance of the idea, dissociated powers are popping up all over the place it seems.
Dissociated stops having meanings when you claim things like "hobgoblins excel in taking advantage of foes distracted by allies" as OOC.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;766401Dissociated stops having meanings when you claim things like "hobgoblins excel in taking advantage of foes distracted by allies" as OOC.
I don't think you even really accept the concept of OOC based on all the narrative wars from ages past, so that doesn't really surprise me.
However, no one (including you) has told me HOW, in the SETTING, that ability is actually supposed to work. So if it so painfully associated, maybe you can tell me how it makes perfect sense that
Hobgoblins get it?
Is it due to being sneaky? Traditionally not a Hobgoblin thing, they're armored, formation fighters. Rogues somehow get a similar thing, but no one has explained exactly how Rogues get that either other then handwavium.
Is it due to being fighters? No human fighter gets the ability, so what is the source?
Is it an ability bred into the race by their God? :idunno:
Or maybe,
just maybe, it's a power that got picked from a list and got tacked on to the Hobgoblins just so they would have some tactical difference from Orcs, Goblins, and Bugbears, and it isn't necessarily tied to anything in particular in the setting itself...? Where have we seen this before? :hmm:
Take 4e and yank the grid and AEDU, what's left?
Or lets put it this way...
Take what is uniquely 3e, not present in 0-2. What of that is in Basic?
- Ascending Armor Class.
- Skills (although the way they work, I would argue that they are closer to 2e proficiencies, or 4e skills so Skills might be a wash)
- Challenge Rating
Take what is uniquely 4e, not present in 0-3. What of that is in Basic?
Quote from: Batman• HD healing = Healing Surges.....sorta
• Overnight full healing = 4E style
• Short Rest abilities = Encounter Powers.....again sorta
• At-will spellcasting (Cantrips / Orisons) = At-Will spells
• Shortened Skill list akin to 4E's instead of the vast 3.5 list
• Rogue's Sneak Attack happens without any "sneak" required
• Paladin smites work against anything (from the playtest anyways)
• Ritual spells = pretty much what 4E did.
It's not 3e lite, it's 4e lite, and it's starting to look like there's a big fishbowl full of magic car..err special abilites written on them that get pulled from when they stat up a new monster.
yeah, it was pretty clear from day 1 that every race was pretty much going to have a defining power. If you regard that as a bad thing, I can see how this is not an edition for you.
But its not been randomly picked from a list. The shear wealth of material that WotC put out trying to refine creatures to represent their most iconic form is probably more than any other game has ever attempted.
That's the big difference between 5e and 4e; 4e imposed what D&D should be on its fans, with 5e they have worked to get the buy in of as many fans as possible on every aspect of the game.
3e hobgoblins got +dex and +move silently. The idea that they have never been portrayed as sneaky in D&D is wrong.
Also, a human fighter could pick it up, by grabbing a few levels of rogue (3 for 2d6, and actually it would be better than the hobgoblin version). To do that though, he would be exchanging knowledge on how to just hit MORE (his 4th extra attack), in order to learn how to better take advantage of openings a distracted combatant leaves.
Hobgoblins aren't fighters. Treating them as fighters is silly. They are a monster. Not an adventurer class. They have training that is cultural to their style of combat. It gives them a bonus. Big fucking whoop.
Quote from: CRKrueger;766418I don't think you even really accept the concept of OOC based on all the narrative wars from ages past, so that doesn't really surprise me.
However, no one (including you) has told me HOW, in the SETTING, that ability is actually supposed to work. So if it so painfully associated, maybe you can tell me how it makes perfect sense that Hobgoblins get it?
Is it due to being sneaky? Traditionally not a Hobgoblin thing, they're armored, formation fighters. Rogues somehow get a similar thing, but no one has explained exactly how Rogues get that either other then handwavium.
Is it due to being fighters? No human fighter gets the ability, so what is the source?
Is it an ability bred into the race by their God? :idunno:
Or maybe, just maybe, it's a power that got picked from a list and got tacked on to the Hobgoblins just so they would have some tactical difference from Orcs, Goblins, and Bugbears, and it isn't necessarily tied to anything in particular in the setting itself...? Where have we seen this before? :hmm:
Take 4e and yank the grid and AEDU, what's left?
This is why I hate dogs tripping people in 3x, and why I hate dwarves in 4E being hard to push. Giants and dragons are easier to push than a dwarf in 4e.
Why only dogs trip enemies? Gee maybe other monsters might trip as well.
That Hobgoblin ability should be a fighter feat, or something that various skilled warriors / skilled 'monsters' are able to learn.
Quote from: CRKrueger;766391The idea is instead of "always fighting orcs" where they are metaphorical, it's always fighting literal orcs. :D
Instead of the 3e method where only an uber-specialist has the appropriate skill, and everyone else can barely even attempt something with a 50 DC on a d20 for example, the math is flattened.
But if I can't make a Venerable Great Red Wyrm with an AC so high only a perfect feat chain build can even hit it, then how do I make a VGRW tough? By giving it 3.5 million hit points, but you will be able to hit it even at much lower level then you should be.
It's the 4e problem all over again, just partially mitigated...they hope.
People are calling this 3e-lite, it's way way more like 4e-lite, and dispite Mearls' lip service to acceptance of the idea, dissociated powers are popping up all over the place it seems.
I think the in game reasoning is something like a giant dragon is actually pretty easy to hit its just hard to hurt it much.
Other editions rolled that into AC and HP this one just stacks the Hiit points. So a dragons scales are as tough as a suit of plate armour and its as hard to hurt as a knight, trouble is it can take vast amounts of damage because its the size of Boeing 747.
There is a logic to this but it may well end up making combats very long and drawn out. PC damage won't escalate as fast as HPs (logically it actually might make sense to do just that as muashi versus the second best swordsman in all of Nippon is just as likely to be a one hit kill as Dave versus Tony in the tap room at the Drunken Hobbit but I digress) .
I think this is a case of personal preference, and I can see both sides of the argument.
It comes down to whether you find it more frustrating to whiff on most of your swings or to hit most of the times but need to whittle down a huge pile of HP.
Miss
Hit (5 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (6 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (8 damage)
= kill
or
Hit (9 damage)
Miss
Hit (10 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (12 damage)
Hit (9 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
= kill
Quote from: Emperor Norton;7664473e hobgoblins got +dex and +move silently. The idea that they have never been portrayed as sneaky in D&D is wrong.
Also, a human fighter could pick it up, by grabbing a few levels of rogue (3 for 2d6, and actually it would be better than the hobgoblin version). To do that though, he would be exchanging knowledge on how to just hit MORE (his 4th extra attack), in order to learn how to better take advantage of openings a distracted combatant leaves.
Hobgoblins aren't fighters. Treating them as fighters is silly. They are a monster. Not an adventurer class. They have training that is cultural to their style of combat. It gives them a bonus. Big fucking whoop.
Okay ... this argument doesn't make sense. Hobgoblins aren't getting a damage bonus due to stealth they are getting a damage bonus due to formation fighting + tactics of group combat.
the Rogue damage bonus is unrelated and irrelevant. Rogues get a damage bonus is their opponent is distracted and they can make a snak attack that targets the creatures vitals. Just like a backstab back in the day. The fighter hits you hard in the back the thief sticks a long bladed stilleto into your kidneys.
The problem with the Hobgoblin's damage bonus is that it is unexplained and arbitary.
If it had said... When in formation Hobgoblins will charge as as well as the standard damage multiplier they get advantage on the attack roll if at least 3 of them attack at once.
Or a hobgoblin gets a damage bonus of +2d6 if they attack from behind with suprise.
Etc
There are plenty of associative options they could have used and I would definitely have preferred a list of combat options and for them to get access to some of those options rather than a stand alone unique power.
The important thing if a creature gets a bonus to damage or a special attack or whatever is to have an explanation of that bonus so as a DM you can adjudicate it.
So saying "a green dragon can do 10d6 damage once per combat to all opponents in a 30 foot long 30 foot wide cloud who fail a reflex save" on its own makes no sense. saying " A green dragon can breath a cloud of chlorine gas once per combat. the cloud is roughly 30 feet square and deals 10d6 damage to all creatures caught it in" . this is roughly the same but the DM can now rule about how a gust of wind would affect it, or an Air elemental, or a wall of force or blah blah blah . By associating the effect to the in game fiction you make it easier to rule, visualise, understand and remember.
The argument Hobgoblins get extra damage because they are trained to fight in groups make no sense because there is no support for that anywhere else in the rules. Whereas we know that if the party were to smash open a bottle releasing a cloud of chlorine gas it would still harm them.
So the damage option whilst it makes Hobgoblins very very tough in groups has no in game logic.
Quote from: jibbajibba;766495the Rogue damage bonus is unrelated and irrelevant. .
No it's not. Not in 5e terms anyway. Both are nearly identical in how they are explained. Rogues get to apply sneak attack damage whenever they have an ally that is in melee range of the rogue's target. Pretty much the exact same way it's described for hobgoblins
Quote from: Sacrosanct;766501No it's not. Not in 5e terms anyway. Both are nearly identical in how they are explained. Rogues get to apply sneak attack damage whenever they have an ally that is in melee range of the rogue's target. Pretty much the exact same way it's described for hobgoblins
okay so they need to explain the rogue's damage better.
They need to say "in combat when an enemy is engaged in melee with an ally or when an ally is in melee range to an enemy the rogue can get a sneak attack that targets the creature's vitals to gain and additional 2d6 damage" then I can say it doesn't apply for oozes, golems or stuff without vitals etc .
Just because the trigger effect "an ally is within melee range" and the effect "deals an additional 2d6 damage" are the same doesn't mean the actual in game explanation needs to be the same. Just like 2 dragons might deal the same damage to targets in the same area. The fact that one breathes fire and one breathes gas makes them two different effects with different in game results.
Fighting in close order with long weapons, for novices: the guy next to me tries to foul the weapons of multiple defenders, so that I can target one without being parried.
You could argue that this is going to make it easier for me to hit, but it's also reasonable to model that any hit I land is going to be more critical - instead of parrying my attack into an arm or leg, I'm going to hit center-of-mass or the neck/shoulder juncture or the front of the helmet, whatever your particular long weapon's favorite target is.
So maybe it's a missing class feature for the fighter, or maybe just something the Champion doesn't get and another future subclass will be able to get. But it's not grossly dissociated.
Quote from: Haffrung;766491It comes down to whether you find it more frustrating to whiff on most of your swings or to hit most of the times but need to whittle down a huge pile of HP.
Miss
Hit (5 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (6 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (8 damage)
= kill
or
Hit (9 damage)
Miss
Hit (10 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (12 damage)
Hit (9 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
= kill
also means magic and damage from magic become key.
If a big monster has 100 HPs and you need to hit it 10 times to kill but you hit it 80% of the time then a 20 HP instant damage spell is useful but not overpowering.
If its got 20 HP and you need to hit it 3 times to kill it but you only hit 10% of the time then an instant damage 20 HP spell has a huge impact.
Quote from: Naburimannu;766520Fighting in close order with long weapons, for novices: the guy next to me tries to foul the weapons of multiple defenders, so that I can target one without being parried.
You could argue that this is going to make it easier for me to hit, but it's also reasonable to model that any hit I land is going to be more critical - instead of parrying my attack into an arm or leg, I'm going to hit center-of-mass or the neck/shoulder juncture or the front of the helmet, whatever your particular long weapon's favorite target is.
So maybe it's a missing class feature for the fighter, or maybe just something the Champion doesn't get and another future subclass will be able to get. But it's not grossly dissociated.
Its dissociated unless that is the given justification.
For me something like a combat effect you get from "spear mastery" that says Precise Blow: -When fighting in formation you are able to land your blows more precisely and inflict more damage.
Hobgoblins - Combat effects - Precise Blow
Or similar is an associated explanation. It also allows me to rule when the rule would apply , when it wouldn't apply, to describe how it works and its not limited to just this creature.
AC bonus is more realistic than the 2d6 extra damage, esp if you figure the protector fighting style from the game. Not that that is ultra realistic in itself, but that troops in formation were better on the defense, like overlapping shields, the testudo/turtle, etc..
It's arbitrary how the hobgoblin gets its extra damage. Which is a pity because what made them cool and dangerous before was how similar to other demi-humans they were. Thus they used similar equipment to PCs, had less chaotic behavior and thus setting explained ecology for better strategy and tactics. They were a threat from setting and open-ended for GM to express that into play.
Now they are given a mechanic that short-circuits the setting logic and hampers GM expression because there's now something to edit. The closest equivalent to this mechanic is the equally short-circuited logic and player hampering expression of Rogue's Sneak Attack -- except for the hobgoblin it is equivalent to a lvl 3 or 4 Rogue. Yet there's no Hobgoblin Cunning Action mechanical support for a setting logical mirrored connection to Rogue mechanics.
It's sloppy, disconnected, and unnecessary when a simple ecology explanation, with perhaps equivalent raised Skill values, would have sufficed. Recreate the Rogue concept of Hobgoblin? Raise the Stealth skill and express how Hobgoblins are like "fragile teamwork ninjas." Recreate the Fighter concept of Hobgoblin? Help is a basic action that grants an ally advantage, express how ecologically nearby or second rank Hobgoblins tend to Help allies to land blows. Or how ecologically Hobgoblins tend to favor two-weapon fighting when cooperating in melee, thus landing more damaging blows.
As is this is a slap paste fix and really does a disservice to the dreaming that is setting logic.
I swear, when bonus damage based on knowing how to take advantage of an opponent being distracted is considered OOC, I really question how ridiculously fragile your immersion is.
Its about taking advantage of a distracted opponent. WELL WHY DOESN'T THE FIGHTER GET IT, HE'S THE MASTER OF FIGHTING! Because that isn't how he learns to fight! The fighter already does more damage than that, once he starts getting extra attacks he gets more damage EVERY ROUND, REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCE, than a Rogue does.
And hell, we haven't seen every feat, or even every archetype of Fighter. It might be totally obtainable for a Fighter.
Oh no Rogues and Hobgoblins know how to fight in a different way than a Fighter. MY IIIIIMMEEEERSIIIIOOOOON QQ
Aren't Rogues back stabbing? That doesn't sound like what the hobgoblins are doing.
Quote from: dragoner;766594Aren't Rogues back stabbing? That doesn't sound like what the hobgoblins are doing.
Honestly, I think we would need to look at the descriptive text of the hobgoblin rather than just the stats. I don't know if its closer to the +dex +move silently 3.x hobgoblin, or the military phalanx hobgoblin from other edition.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;766599Honestly, I think we would need to look at the descriptive text of the hobgoblin rather than just the stats. I don't know if its closer to the +dex +move silently 3.x hobgoblin, or the military phalanx hobgoblin from other edition.
Ninja hobgoblins work for me, at least there is some ecology there, I was thinking more along the lines of the phalanx, I guess.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;766589I swear, when bonus damage based on knowing how to take advantage of an opponent being distracted is considered OOC, I really question how ridiculously fragile your immersion is.
Its about taking advantage of a distracted opponent. WELL WHY DOESN'T THE FIGHTER GET IT, HE'S THE MASTER OF FIGHTING! Because that isn't how he learns to fight! The fighter already does more damage than that, once he starts getting extra attacks he gets more damage EVERY ROUND, REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCE, than a Rogue does.
And hell, we haven't seen every feat, or even every archetype of Fighter. It might be totally obtainable for a Fighter.
Oh no Rogues and Hobgoblins know how to fight in a different way than a Fighter. MY IIIIIMMEEEERSIIIIOOOOON QQ
It has been a while since the narrative wars, hasn't it? Feels good to dump all that bile?
It is possible that a lot of these powers will get turned into selectable things once the options hit.
As far as "Fighters get trained to swing the sword more often, Rogues get trained to take advantage of numbers, something no fighter has ever learned" goes, come on, seriously?
Quote from: dragoner;766594Aren't Rogues back stabbing? That doesn't sound like what the hobgoblins are doing.
Nope 5e rogues don't backstab, they can stand right in full view of an opponent in the frontal arc, and get extra damage as long as there is an ally within 5ft of the opponent. Zero stealth required.
Do rogues get shields now, for that phalanx style?
Quote from: Emperor Norton;766401Dissociated stops having meanings when you claim things like "hobgoblins excel in taking advantage of foes distracted by allies" as OOC.
They're the soccer hooligans of the goblin world. Big and mean, love to cloak themselves in the appearance of martial expertise, but they're really all about the sucker punch.
Quote from: CRKrueger;766623Nope 5e rogues don't backstab, they can stand right in full view of an opponent in the frontal arc, and get extra damage as long as there is an ally within 5ft of the opponent. Zero stealth required.
Us old people and our antiquated thoughts about D&D, what are you going to do?
Quote from: jibbajibba;766280I have an issue with it and liek others I find it a little gamist.
If Hobgoblins get a benefit from fighing in a formation then the system should give benefits for fighting in formation and these should be improved AC, improved to hit or additional attacks or similar.
These benefits should be avialabel to anyone that fights in formation.
Hobgoblins are regimented and orderly. Soldiers are regimented and orderly (usually) (Or at least used to be...)
Adventurers are a mobile anarchist convention.
Quote from: Omega;766925Hobgoblins are regimented and orderly. Soldiers are regimented and orderly (usually) (Or at least used to be...)
Adventurers are a mobile anarchist convention.
but what if my 3rd level solider PC hires 6 hirelings and gives them all spear and shield and trains them to fight in formation?
What if my party is all made up of Soldier PCS who are part of an elite mercenary unit?
etc
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763894Special: Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's ally
.... so there's a bonus for fighting in formation?
This is the first thing I've heard that actually makes me interested in that version.
Quote from: dragoner;766594Aren't Rogues back stabbing? That doesn't sound like what the hobgoblins are doing.
Rogues haven't been backstabbing since they turned from Thieves to Rogues. Rogues are Cuisinarts of Death.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;764025"Show me on the doll where the hobgoblin touched your danger zone."
Your journey to the Dark Side is complete, my young apprentice.
Quote from: Old Geezer;767023.... so there's a bonus for fighting in formation?
This is the first thing I've heard that actually makes me interested in that version.
not typically, but there are some abilities like that. The hobgoblin one above is one. Fighters also can get an ability to impose a penalty to an attacker attacking an ally if ally is within 5ft and fighter has a shield, so sort of a shield wall deal.
but hobgoblin in formation with a second row with polearms are a lot deadlier than their level suggests
Quote from: Old Geezer;767024Rogues haven't been backstabbing since they turned from Thieves to Rogues. Rogues are Cuisinarts of Death.
I liked thieves, I mean it's no "Rogue's World".
One time playing Traveller, years ago, someone commented: "What class do you think we'd be?" A friend answered, we're all thieves, thieves like us. "Thieves like us" became the motto for that campaign.
Quote from: jibbajibba;766988but what if my 3rd level solider PC hires 6 hirelings and gives them all spear and shield and trains them to fight in formation?
What if my party is all made up of Soldier PCS who are part of an elite mercenary unit?
etc
Then you have a very organized mobile anarchist convention... :confused:
Quote from: Omega;767029Then you have a very organized mobile anarchist convention... :confused:
Or he's playing OD&D.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;767026not typically, but there are some abilities like that. The hobgoblin one above is one. Fighters also can get an ability to impose a penalty to an attacker attacking an ally if ally is within 5ft and fighter has a shield, so sort of a shield wall deal.
but hobgoblin in formation with a second row with polearms are a lot deadlier than their level suggests
....damn, you sweet talker you....
Quote from: JonWake;766894They're the soccer hooligans of the goblin world. Big and mean, love to cloak themselves in the appearance of martial expertise, but they're really all about the sucker punch.
That's pretty much my reading of it.
Quote from: Old Geezer;767024Rogues haven't been backstabbing since they turned from Thieves to Rogues. Rogues are Cuisinarts of Death.
Captain Pedantic to the rescue! Thieves turned into a subtype of the Rogue archetype by 2e, and retained backstabbing while not being Cuisinarts of Death. The lack of fighter percentile strength, weapon specialization, and multiple attacks made two-weapon fighting close combat a foolishly dangerous early game. However adjustable Thief Skills made potential backstab kiting an option.
Do I get to tongue your peehole now? :D
Quote from: Opaopajr;767101Captain Pedantic to the rescue! Thieves turned into a subtype of the Rogue archetype by 2e, and retained backstabbing while not being Cuisinarts of Death. The lack of fighter percentile strength, weapon specialization, and multiple attacks made two-weapon fighting close combat a foolishly dangerous early game. However adjustable Thief Skills made potential backstab kiting an option.
Do I get to tongue your peehole now? :D
"You can't TAKE my peehole!"
I'll stick to rogues as fighter / thieves. Love me some Rolemaster.
Actually that was my solution to multiclassing for my Dark Passages neo-clone. I made bridge classes: Rogue (Fighter / Thief), Hierophant (Priest / Wizard), Cleric (Priest / Fighter), Bard (Fighter / Wizard). Archers, Rangers Barbarians, Knights, and Paladins are really just flavors of fighters but as I like to have lots of different classes I made them unique.
I'm not sure what I'd do with it now that fifth edition is here. I had been toying with a highly iconographic version for kids where bad-guys are defeated and slip off screen in embarrassment rather than dying.