Quote from: jibbajibba;766495the Rogue damage bonus is unrelated and irrelevant. .

No it's not. Not in 5e terms anyway.  Both are nearly identical in how they are explained.  Rogues get to apply sneak attack damage whenever they have an ally that is in melee range of the rogue's target.  Pretty much the exact same way it's described for hobgoblins

Quote from: Sacrosanct;766501No it's not. Not in 5e terms anyway.  Both are nearly identical in how they are explained.  Rogues get to apply sneak attack damage whenever they have an ally that is in melee range of the rogue's target.  Pretty much the exact same way it's described for hobgoblins

okay so they need to explain the rogue's damage better.

They need to say "in combat when an enemy is engaged in melee with an ally or when an ally is in melee range to an enemy the rogue can get a sneak attack that targets the creature's vitals to gain and additional 2d6 damage" then I can say it doesn't apply for oozes, golems or stuff without vitals etc .

Just because the trigger effect "an ally is within melee range" and the effect "deals an additional 2d6 damage" are the same doesn't mean the actual in game explanation needs to be the same. Just like 2 dragons might deal the same damage to targets in the same area. The fact that one breathes fire and one breathes gas makes them two different effects with different in game results.

Fighting in close order with long weapons, for novices: the guy next to me tries to foul the weapons of multiple defenders, so that I can target one without being parried.

You could argue that this is going to make it easier for me to hit, but it's also reasonable to model that any hit I land is going to be more critical - instead of parrying my attack into an arm or leg, I'm going to hit center-of-mass or the neck/shoulder juncture or the front of the helmet, whatever your particular long weapon's favorite target is.

So maybe it's a missing class feature for the fighter, or maybe just something the Champion doesn't get and another future subclass will be able to get. But it's not grossly dissociated.

Quote from: Haffrung;766491It comes down to whether you find it more frustrating to whiff on most of your swings or to hit most of the times but need to whittle down a huge pile of HP.

Miss
Hit (5 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (6 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (8 damage)
= kill

or

Hit (9 damage)
Miss
Hit (10 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (12 damage)
Hit (9 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
= kill

also means magic and damage from magic become key.
If a big monster has 100 HPs and you need to hit it 10 times to kill but you hit it 80% of the time then a 20 HP instant damage spell is useful but not overpowering.
If its got 20 HP and you need to hit it 3 times to kill it but you only hit 10% of the time then an instant damage 20 HP spell has a huge impact.

Quote from: Naburimannu;766520Fighting in close order with long weapons, for novices: the guy next to me tries to foul the weapons of multiple defenders, so that I can target one without being parried.

You could argue that this is going to make it easier for me to hit, but it's also reasonable to model that any hit I land is going to be more critical - instead of parrying my attack into an arm or leg, I'm going to hit center-of-mass or the neck/shoulder juncture or the front of the helmet, whatever your particular long weapon's favorite target is.

So maybe it's a missing class feature for the fighter, or maybe just something the Champion doesn't get and another future subclass will be able to get. But it's not grossly dissociated.

Its dissociated unless that is the given justification.

For me something like a combat effect you get from "spear mastery" that says Precise Blow: -When fighting in formation you are able to land your blows more precisely and inflict more damage.
Hobgoblins - Combat effects - Precise Blow

Or similar is an associated explanation. It also allows me to rule when the rule would apply , when it wouldn't apply, to describe how it works and its not limited to just this creature.

AC bonus is more realistic than the 2d6 extra damage, esp if you figure the protector fighting style from the game. Not that that is ultra realistic in itself, but that troops in formation were better on the defense, like overlapping shields, the testudo/turtle, etc..

It's arbitrary how the hobgoblin gets its extra damage. Which is a pity because what made them cool and dangerous before was how similar to other demi-humans they were. Thus they used similar equipment to PCs, had less chaotic behavior and thus setting explained ecology for better strategy and tactics. They were a threat from setting and open-ended for GM to express that into play.

Now they are given a mechanic that short-circuits the setting logic and hampers GM expression because there's now something to edit. The closest equivalent to this mechanic is the equally short-circuited logic and player hampering expression of Rogue's Sneak Attack -- except for the hobgoblin it is equivalent to a lvl 3 or 4 Rogue. Yet there's no Hobgoblin Cunning Action mechanical support for a setting logical mirrored connection to Rogue mechanics.

It's sloppy, disconnected, and unnecessary when a simple ecology explanation, with perhaps equivalent raised Skill values, would have sufficed. Recreate the Rogue concept of Hobgoblin? Raise the Stealth skill and express how Hobgoblins are like "fragile teamwork ninjas." Recreate the Fighter concept of Hobgoblin? Help is a basic action that grants an ally advantage, express how ecologically nearby or second rank Hobgoblins tend to Help allies to land blows. Or how ecologically Hobgoblins tend to favor two-weapon fighting when cooperating in melee, thus landing more damaging blows.

As is this is a slap paste fix and really does a disservice to the dreaming that is setting logic.

I swear, when bonus damage based on knowing how to take advantage of an opponent being distracted is considered OOC, I really question how ridiculously fragile your immersion is.

Its about taking advantage of a distracted opponent. WELL WHY DOESN'T THE FIGHTER GET IT, HE'S THE MASTER OF FIGHTING! Because that isn't how he learns to fight! The fighter already does more damage than that, once he starts getting extra attacks he gets more damage EVERY ROUND, REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCE, than a Rogue does.

And hell, we haven't seen every feat, or even every archetype of Fighter. It might be totally obtainable for a Fighter.

Oh no Rogues and Hobgoblins know how to fight in a different way than a Fighter. MY IIIIIMMEEEERSIIIIOOOOON QQ

Aren't Rogues back stabbing? That doesn't sound like what the hobgoblins are doing.

Quote from: dragoner;766594Aren't Rogues back stabbing? That doesn't sound like what the hobgoblins are doing.

Honestly, I think we would need to look at the descriptive text of the hobgoblin rather than just the stats. I don't know if its closer to the +dex +move silently 3.x hobgoblin, or the military phalanx hobgoblin from other edition.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;766599Honestly, I think we would need to look at the descriptive text of the hobgoblin rather than just the stats. I don't know if its closer to the +dex +move silently 3.x hobgoblin, or the military phalanx hobgoblin from other edition.

Ninja hobgoblins work for me, at least there is some ecology there, I was thinking more along the lines of the phalanx, I guess.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;766589I swear, when bonus damage based on knowing how to take advantage of an opponent being distracted is considered OOC, I really question how ridiculously fragile your immersion is.

Its about taking advantage of a distracted opponent. WELL WHY DOESN'T THE FIGHTER GET IT, HE'S THE MASTER OF FIGHTING! Because that isn't how he learns to fight! The fighter already does more damage than that, once he starts getting extra attacks he gets more damage EVERY ROUND, REGARDLESS OF CIRCUMSTANCE, than a Rogue does.

And hell, we haven't seen every feat, or even every archetype of Fighter. It might be totally obtainable for a Fighter.

Oh no Rogues and Hobgoblins know how to fight in a different way than a Fighter. MY IIIIIMMEEEERSIIIIOOOOON QQ

It has been a while since the narrative wars, hasn't it? Feels good to dump all that bile?

It is possible that a lot of these powers will get turned into selectable things once the options hit.

As far as "Fighters get trained to swing the sword more often, Rogues get trained to take advantage of numbers, something no fighter has ever learned" goes, come on, seriously?

Quote from: dragoner;766594Aren't Rogues back stabbing? That doesn't sound like what the hobgoblins are doing.

Nope 5e rogues don't backstab, they can stand right in full view of an opponent in the frontal arc, and get extra damage as long as there is an ally within 5ft of the opponent.  Zero stealth required.

Do rogues get shields now, for that phalanx style?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;766401Dissociated stops having meanings when you claim things like "hobgoblins excel in taking advantage of foes distracted by allies" as OOC.

They're the soccer hooligans of the goblin world. Big and mean, love to cloak themselves in the appearance of martial expertise, but they're really all about the sucker punch.