Quote from: Phillip;766370No, that's not the question. It doesn't look like the answer, either!

That's o.k. I am willing to give it another go.

QuoteHow does jacking up a 1st level fighter to the equal of a hobgoblin, and both to at least the equal of an old 2nd level fighter (equipped with plate-mail and shield, no less?), make it tougher on presumably now even higher-level "high-level" figures -- which must, I assume, also be jacked up in order for those levels to mean anything?

Not sure where you get the idea that a 1st level fighter is equal to a Hobgoblin? Because a first level fighter is probably going to get mauled to death by a hobgoblin. A Hobgoblin is now about equivalent to two level 1 characters or a level 2 character.

QuoteSetting aside the apparent contradiction of the aim, why try to do that in the first place?

They have not, see above.

QuoteIsn't it the point of being higher level that formerly fearsome foes are no longer such threats, and one can,  you know, venture into the deeper dungeons to take on elder dragons, balrogs, vampire wizards, lich lords, demon princes, etc.?

depends what you mean by 'such threats'. Personally I find MMORPG style leveling where everything below you is irrelevant makes a very dull game. I want leveling to make me better than I was, but I prefer to get better gradually rather than in massive great big chunks. Obviously others may have different preferences.

Quote from: Phillip;766370No, that's not the question. It doesn't look like the answer, either!

How does jacking up a 1st level fighter to the equal of a hobgoblin, and both to at least the equal of an old 2nd level fighter (equipped with plate-mail and shield, no less?), make it tougher on presumably now even higher-level "high-level" figures -- which must, I assume, also be jacked up in order for those levels to mean anything?

Setting aside the apparent contradiction of the aim, why try to do that in the first place? Isn't it the point of being higher level that formerly fearsome foes are no longer such threats, and one can,  you know, venture into the deeper dungeons to take on elder dragons, balrogs, vampire wizards, lich lords, demon princes, etc.?

I think its noit really equal to a 1st level fighter its really equal to a 2nd level fighter or 1/2 way between the 2

Here is Emperor Nortons elf figther from teh Chargen thread (complete with awesom stats)

Lorethain
Chaotic Good High Elf Fighter
Str 18 (+4) Dex 18 (+4) Con 14 (+2) Int 18 (+4) Wis 11 (+0) Cha 9 (-1)
HP 12, AC 16, Initiative +4
Longsword: +6, 1d8+6, Melee
Dagger: +6, 1d4+6, Melee
Longbow: +6, 1d8+4, Range (150/600)

This guy is better than a 1e fighter (sans UA) but if you remove the stat boost not a lot better

The Hobgoblin with
Hobgoblin
HP: 2d8+2, AC: 18
Attacks: melee (+3, 1d8+1). Missile (+3, 1d8+1)
Special: Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's ally

Is getting +1 to hit on the fighter (sans strength adjustment) similar HP a better AC and that big tactical damage bonus which if you look at the numbers is massive.


By comparison a 1e elf fighter using max HPs at first level and the same stats would have
Lorethain
Chaotic Good High Elf Fighter
Str 18(01) (+1,+3) Dex 18 (+3) Con 14 (+0) Int 18  Wis 11  Cha 9
HP 10, AC 1 (chain and shield + 3 dex) , Initiative +3
Longsword: +3, 1d8+3, Melee (+1 to hit from Str +1 for being and elf +1 for 1st level fighter compared to the base line of 0 level fighter)
Dagger: +2, 1d4+3, Melee
Longbow: +5, 1d8+3, 2 shots per round, Range (150/600)

So the 1e guy (with min Strength bonus on those stats) has less HPs, better AC, lower chance to hit and comparably lower damage.

If you add UA to this its a huge shift and double spec at first level makes hte 1e guy way tougher because of additional attacks.

So hobgoblin is weak (well still tougher than it was at it now has 2hd not 1) alone but devastating in groups.

I don't like the extra damage by the way but not from a gamist "damage bloat = bad" model but from the dissociated mechanics perspective.

Also, keep in mind my fighter had crazy rolls and has monster stats.

Personally I would have preferred they got an AC bonus btw (the hobgoblins). But it looks like they are giving all the goblinoids rogue tricks instead.

Quote from: jadrax;766374Not sure where you get the idea that a 1st level fighter is equal to a Hobgoblin?

From the Sacrosanct post I quoted; see the final line.

QuoteThey have not, see above.

I was referring to them doing just what you claimed they were doing; see your own words.

QuoteObviously others may have different preferences.

My preference is for D&D to be D&D. There are literally hundreds of rules sets that are something else.

Anyway, inflation could flatten the slope a lot in terms of HP, if they weren't jacking those up for higher levels as well (which iirc they are, with perpetual HD and constitution bonuses). On attack rolls, it just makes all the numbers bigger -- "Ours go to eleven!" -- unless I'm missing something?

The idea is instead of "always fighting orcs" where they are metaphorical, it's always fighting literal orcs.

Instead of the 3e method where only an uber-specialist has the appropriate skill, and everyone else can barely even attempt something with a 50 DC on a d20 for example, the math is flattened.

But if I can't make a Venerable Great Red Wyrm with an AC so high only a perfect feat chain build can even hit it, then how do I make a VGRW tough?  By giving it 3.5 million hit points, but you will be able to hit it even at much lower level then you should be.

It's the 4e problem all over again, just partially mitigated...they hope.  

People are calling this 3e-lite, it's way way more like 4e-lite, and dispite Mearls' lip service to acceptance of the idea, dissociated powers are popping up all over the place it seems.

Dissociated stops having meanings when you claim things like "hobgoblins excel in taking advantage of foes distracted by allies" as OOC.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;766401Dissociated stops having meanings when you claim things like "hobgoblins excel in taking advantage of foes distracted by allies" as OOC.

I don't think you even really accept the concept of OOC based on all the narrative wars from ages past, so that doesn't really surprise me.

However, no one (including you) has told me HOW, in the SETTING, that ability is actually supposed to work.  So if it so painfully associated, maybe you can tell me how it makes perfect sense that Hobgoblins get it?

Is it due to being sneaky?  Traditionally not a Hobgoblin thing, they're armored, formation fighters.  Rogues somehow get a similar thing, but no one has explained exactly how Rogues get that either other then handwavium.

Is it due to being fighters?  No human fighter gets the ability, so what is the source?

Is it an ability bred into the race by their God? :idunno:

Or maybe, just maybe, it's a power that got picked from a list and got tacked on to the Hobgoblins just so they would have some tactical difference from Orcs, Goblins, and Bugbears, and it isn't necessarily tied to anything in particular in the setting itself...?  Where have we seen this before? :hmm:

Take 4e and yank the grid and AEDU, what's left?

Or lets put it this way...

Take what is uniquely 3e, not present in 0-2.  What of that is in Basic?

• Ascending Armor Class.
• Skills (although the way they work, I would argue that they are closer to 2e proficiencies, or 4e skills so Skills might be a wash)
• Challenge Rating

Take what is uniquely 4e, not present in 0-3. What of that is in Basic?

Quote from: Batman• HD healing = Healing Surges.....sorta
• Overnight full healing = 4E style
• Short Rest abilities = Encounter Powers.....again sorta
• At-will spellcasting (Cantrips / Orisons) = At-Will spells
• Shortened Skill list akin to 4E's instead of the vast 3.5 list
• Rogue's Sneak Attack happens without any "sneak" required
• Paladin smites work against anything (from the playtest anyways)
• Ritual spells = pretty much what 4E did.

It's not 3e lite, it's 4e lite, and it's starting to look like there's a big fishbowl full of magic car..err special abilites written on them that get pulled from when they stat up a new monster.

yeah, it was pretty clear from day 1 that every race was pretty much going to have a defining power. If you regard that as a bad thing, I can see how this is not an edition for you.

But its not been randomly picked from a list. The shear wealth of material that WotC put out trying to refine creatures to represent their most iconic form is probably more than any other game has ever attempted.

That's the big difference between 5e and 4e; 4e imposed what D&D should be on its fans, with 5e they have worked to get the buy in of as many fans as possible on every aspect of the game.

3e hobgoblins got +dex and +move silently. The idea that they have never been portrayed as sneaky in D&D is wrong.

Also, a human fighter could pick it up, by grabbing a few levels of rogue (3 for 2d6, and actually it would be better than the hobgoblin version). To do that though, he would be exchanging knowledge on how to just hit MORE (his 4th extra attack), in order to learn how to better take advantage of openings a distracted combatant leaves.

Hobgoblins aren't fighters. Treating them as fighters is silly. They are a monster. Not an adventurer class. They have training that is cultural to their style of combat. It gives them a bonus. Big fucking whoop.

Quote from: CRKrueger;766418I don't think you even really accept the concept of OOC based on all the narrative wars from ages past, so that doesn't really surprise me.

However, no one (including you) has told me HOW, in the SETTING, that ability is actually supposed to work.  So if it so painfully associated, maybe you can tell me how it makes perfect sense that Hobgoblins get it?

Is it due to being sneaky?  Traditionally not a Hobgoblin thing, they're armored, formation fighters.  Rogues somehow get a similar thing, but no one has explained exactly how Rogues get that either other then handwavium.

Is it due to being fighters?  No human fighter gets the ability, so what is the source?

Is it an ability bred into the race by their God? :idunno:

Or maybe, just maybe, it's a power that got picked from a list and got tacked on to the Hobgoblins just so they would have some tactical difference from Orcs, Goblins, and Bugbears, and it isn't necessarily tied to anything in particular in the setting itself...?  Where have we seen this before? :hmm:

Take 4e and yank the grid and AEDU, what's left?

This is why I hate dogs tripping people in 3x, and why I hate dwarves in 4E being hard to push. Giants and dragons are easier to push than a dwarf in 4e.
Why only dogs trip enemies? Gee maybe other monsters might trip as well.

That Hobgoblin ability should be a fighter feat, or something that various skilled warriors / skilled 'monsters' are able to learn.

Quote from: CRKrueger;766391The idea is instead of "always fighting orcs" where they are metaphorical, it's always fighting literal orcs.

Instead of the 3e method where only an uber-specialist has the appropriate skill, and everyone else can barely even attempt something with a 50 DC on a d20 for example, the math is flattened.

But if I can't make a Venerable Great Red Wyrm with an AC so high only a perfect feat chain build can even hit it, then how do I make a VGRW tough?  By giving it 3.5 million hit points, but you will be able to hit it even at much lower level then you should be.

It's the 4e problem all over again, just partially mitigated...they hope.  

People are calling this 3e-lite, it's way way more like 4e-lite, and dispite Mearls' lip service to acceptance of the idea, dissociated powers are popping up all over the place it seems.

I think the in game reasoning is something like a giant dragon is actually pretty easy to hit its just hard to hurt it much.

Other editions rolled that into AC and HP this one just stacks the Hiit points. So a dragons scales are as tough as a suit of plate armour and its as hard to hurt as a knight, trouble is it can take vast amounts of damage because its the size of Boeing 747.

There is a logic to this but it may well end up making combats very long and drawn out. PC damage won't escalate as fast as HPs (logically it actually might make sense to do just that as muashi versus the second best swordsman in all of Nippon is just as likely to be a one hit kill as Dave versus Tony in the tap room at the Drunken Hobbit but I digress) .

I think this is a case of personal preference, and I can see both sides of the argument.

It comes down to whether you find it more frustrating to whiff on most of your swings or to hit most of the times but need to whittle down a huge pile of HP.

Miss
Hit (5 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (6 damage)
Miss
Miss
Hit (8 damage)
= kill

or

Hit (9 damage)
Miss
Hit (10 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
Miss
Hit (7 damage)
Miss
Hit (12 damage)
Hit (9 damage)
Hit (8 damage)
= kill

Quote from: Emperor Norton;7664473e hobgoblins got +dex and +move silently. The idea that they have never been portrayed as sneaky in D&D is wrong.

Also, a human fighter could pick it up, by grabbing a few levels of rogue (3 for 2d6, and actually it would be better than the hobgoblin version). To do that though, he would be exchanging knowledge on how to just hit MORE (his 4th extra attack), in order to learn how to better take advantage of openings a distracted combatant leaves.

Hobgoblins aren't fighters. Treating them as fighters is silly. They are a monster. Not an adventurer class. They have training that is cultural to their style of combat. It gives them a bonus. Big fucking whoop.

Okay ... this argument doesn't make sense. Hobgoblins aren't getting a damage bonus due to stealth they are getting a damage bonus due to formation fighting + tactics of group combat.

the Rogue damage bonus is unrelated and irrelevant. Rogues get a damage bonus is their opponent is distracted and they can make a snak attack that targets the creatures vitals. Just like a backstab back in the day. The fighter hits you hard in the back the thief sticks a long bladed stilleto into your kidneys.

The problem with the Hobgoblin's damage bonus is that it is unexplained and arbitary.

If it had said... When in formation Hobgoblins will charge as as well as the standard damage multiplier they get advantage on the attack roll if at least 3 of them attack at once.

Or a hobgoblin gets a damage bonus of +2d6 if they attack from behind with suprise.

Etc

There are plenty of associative options they could have used and I would definitely have preferred a list of combat options and for them to get access to some of those options rather than a stand alone unique power.

The important thing if a creature gets a bonus to damage or a special attack or whatever is to have an explanation of that bonus so as a DM you can adjudicate it.

So saying "a green dragon can do 10d6 damage once per combat to all opponents in a 30 foot long 30 foot wide cloud who fail a reflex save" on its own makes no sense. saying " A green dragon can breath a cloud of chlorine gas once per combat. the cloud is roughly 30 feet square and deals 10d6 damage to all creatures caught it in" . this is roughly the same but the DM can now rule about how a gust of wind would affect it, or an Air elemental, or a wall of force or blah blah blah . By associating the effect to the in game fiction you make it easier to rule, visualise, understand and remember.  

The argument Hobgoblins get extra damage because they are trained to fight in groups make no sense because there is no support for that anywhere else in the rules.  Whereas we know that if the party were to smash open a bottle releasing a cloud of chlorine gas it would still harm them.

So the damage option whilst it makes Hobgoblins very very tough in groups has no in game logic.