Another thing I've noticed: note how the 5E table throws in curveballs at the distinctions between tiers. To go from level 4 to level 5 it's a big jump. To go from level 10 to level 11 (the distinction between competent, hardened adventurers and Big Ass Heroes) is a huge leap - the gulf is actually greater than between level 11 and level 12, or 12 and 13, or 13 and 14, presumably to represent just how big a sea change in the campaign getting to high level is. To go from level 16 to 17 (Big Ass Heroes to walking demigods), conversely, is about as easy as going from 15 to 16, presumably because you're getting to the point where your character's power plateaus.

Quote from: dragoner;764017I'd like to play it raw before monkeying with it; imo w/the hobgob's, stay out of their danger zone.

http://youtu.be/d3D7Y_ycSms

Quote from: languagegeek;764281Shit, I agree with you 100%. I'm assuming a turn is 10min...

• why use once every 10 mins? is that extra 2d6 damage so exhausting that I need the refresh? This sounds like some sort of nitro-boost meta game crap. Magic and magic-like abilities I can at least understand having a use-per-time, but this seems to just be a fuck-you trump card that the hobgoblin can play.
• does the ally have to be another hobgobin that the attacker trained with?
• can my party train in formation to gain the same 2d6 damage ability?
• it is a shit move for a DM to pull this on players who are playing well and trying to use tactics, skill, and creativity to defeat the hobgoblins.

I mean, yeah, I can just leave it out of my game. But my list of things to leave out of my game is getting pretty long. Instead, if/when I get around to running 5e, I think I'll do it as close to RAW as I can and let the game live or die on its own merits.

If it is a damage bonus each melee round, representing Hobgoblins fighting well as a team, I like it.

Just makes Hobgoblins dangerous.

I think it's been touched on, but I'm quoting it for those without access to the starter set:

QuoteChallenge - An appropriately equipped and well rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a creature that has a challenge rating equal to their party level without suffering any casualties.

So that 'Challenge 1' 100XP is intended to get divided by four.  You'll need twelve hobgoblins to level in a party of four in one go, IF that's how the Challenge stacks.  (No word on that yet.)

Note, too, that in 3e Hobs were CR 1/2.  'Challenge 1/2' still exists, e.g. Zombies.  And zombies were 1/2 in 3e.

So it's pretty clear they believe that Hobs got buffed.

That leaves us with two basic misconceptions worth testing:

1) That level 2 is trivial to obtain.
2) That old edition hobgoblins are not weaker than the current edition.

Quote from: mcbobbo;764344That leaves us with two basic misconceptions worth testing:

1) That level 2 is trivial to obtain.
2) That old edition hobgoblins are not weaker than the current edition.

Supposedly levels 2 and 3 ARE trivial to obtain by design. Apparently enough players didn't feel like big enough damn heroes at level 1 to spend any appreciable time at that level.

Groups can adjust XP to any pace they please but I think the pace is too rapid for brand new players. Just when you are starting to get familiar with your abilities in a couple of encounters >>>>whooosh>>>> level 2!  You get new abilities then level 3 comes along almost as fast.

Its a bit fast for players new to the concept of an rpg, but its great for veterans that don't enjoy being the stableboy.

Won't be a problem for me but I don't see getting to level 2 'quickly' as ideal for a real novice.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;764353Supposedly levels 2 and 3 ARE trivial to obtain by design. Apparently enough players didn't feel like big enough damn heroes at level 1 to spend any appreciable time at that level.

Groups can adjust XP to any pace they please but I think the pace is too rapid for brand new players. Just when you are starting to get familiar with your abilities in a couple of encounters >>>>whooosh>>>> level 2!  You get new abilities then level 3 comes along almost as fast.

Then the design may have failed.  TWELVE combats, at say ten minutes each is two hours of just fighting Hobgoblins.  You could possibly do it in a single night, but that night would be pretty boring.

Haven't played it yet, though, so we'll see.

Quote from: Warthur;764312I'm not bothered by the experience progression as presented because it's so very, very trivial to just substitute in some other XP table.

And it should definitely be emphasised that stuff does seem to slow down a LOT when you hit 5th level, and in fact compared to both 3E and 4E you actually need much more XP to hit 20th. Check it out:



Compared to 3E, in 5E you need about the same number of XP to go from level 4 to level 5 (4000 vs. 3800), and substantially more XP for every level increase after that; in terms of total XP, 5E overtakes 3E at level 7.

It's even more stark compared to 4E (possibly due to 4E being calibrated for a 1-30 scale, and to have you hit level 30 at a cool 1 million XP). Comparing with 4E, in 5E you need a little more XP to go from level 3 to level 4, and masses more XP for every level increase after that, and the 5E table overtakes the 4E table at level 5.

(Of course, with earlier editions you needed millions of XP to hit 20th, mind, but a comparison there is more difficult because you didn't have a unified XP progression.)

It occurs to me that if you wanted a slower early progression, a quick and simple fix would to be to use the 3E target numbers for levels 1-5, and then use the standard 5E progression from then on. If you wanted even slower progression it requires more tinkering, but that's easy enough to do.

This is a very important point: a lot of gamers see 300xp and assume everything has just been cheapened.  That's not the point; while it is clear that the idea is to accommodate fast progression for groups which can't or don't want to play extremely lengthy campaigns, another vital reason for the xp spread in 5e being the way it is was so that it extends the "sweet spot", the part that the apparent majority of D&D fans like the very most out of any campaign, which is the mid-levels.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Bill;764342If it is a damage bonus each melee round, representing Hobgoblins fighting well as a team, I like it.

Just makes Hobgoblins dangerous.

I have an issue with it and liek others I find it a little gamist.

If Hobgoblins get a benefit from fighing in a formation then the system should give benefits for fighting in formation and these should be improved AC, improved to hit or additional attacks or similar.
These benefits should be avialabel to anyone that fights in formation.

If the benefit is a damage bonus I am going to question it.
A roll to hit in combat is what? A successful hit is what?
If a roll is a single blow, and a success is a hit with a weapon then extra damage can only be due to accuracy and hitting a vital area or to hitting with more force.
Standing next to one of my mates isn't going to increase my accuracy or make me hit harder. It might make you easier to hit because your movementis restricted, or give me a bonus to hit as we use some sort of training, it might make me harder to hit due to a shield wall or defensive positioning or whatever. Additional damage simply doesn't make sense in the game world in only makes sense in the GAME.

So extra damage - Sneak attack to the vitals, called shots, charge, set to receive charge, penetrating weapon perhaps,  - formation doesn't make sense it's in the same ball park as damage on a miss.

Quote from: dragoner;764030It's worse, much much worse, it's a Kenny Loggins song ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK0P1Bk8Cx4

Hob-GOB-lin in your dangerzone!

Quote from: Maltese Changeling;766284Hob-GOB-lin in your dangerzone!

I hope that song doesn't stick with me in game. lol!

Quote from: jibbajibba;766280If Hobgoblins get a benefit from fighting in a formation then the system should give benefits for fighting in formation and these should be improved AC, improved to hit or additional attacks or similar.
These benefits should be avialabel to anyone that fights in formation.

If the benefit is a damage bonus I am going to question it.

Yeah, it seems like some other sort of adjustment would be better for disciplined formation fighters. AC bonus, immunity to player advantage (if that's a dial you can turn in 5e), getting an opportunity attack on anyone who strikes his cohort... I'd even rather give them temp hp for fighting in formation, I think. I'd have to see the kinds of abilities monsters generally have though.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;763894Hobgoblin
HP: 2d8+2,   AC: 18
Attacks: melee (+3, 1d8+1).  Missile (+3, 1d8+1)
Special:  Once per turn, deals extra 2d6 damage to creature if target is within 5ft of hobgoblin's ally


So I guess it's pretty even when comparing to a level 1 fighter . . .

Whoa, really?

Can anyone explain the point of this stat inflation?

Quote from: Phillip;766355Can anyone explain the point of this stat inflation?

Mainly, its because the level range most games experience has gone higher and higher over the years. Having lots of very weak critters worked for TSR D&D, because you probably never saw level 7.

In 3rd edition, you ended up with a monster manual were your pretty much had to add class levels to most of the iconic evil humanoids, because they were all pretty similar and pretty much outclassed.

4e tried to fix it with a ton of mechanics I am not going to go into here, but minion, elite, solo categories were a big part of it.

What 5e is trying to do (and I don't think we know they have pulled it off yet) is to try and make the majority of the monsters continue to be a relevant threat throughout the game. So the Hobgoblin is tougher than hers previous incarnation, shes got double the Hit Die and a lot of AC. Shes also got a backstab ability that means shes a lot more dangerous in groups. Hopefully this means when you attack a level 8 party which a bucketful of these, they won't just laugh in your face.

No, that's not the question. It doesn't look like the answer, either!

How does jacking up a 1st level fighter to the equal of a hobgoblin, and both to at least the equal of an old 2nd level fighter (equipped with plate-mail and shield, no less?), make it tougher on presumably now even higher-level "high-level" figures -- which must, I assume, also be jacked up in order for those levels to mean anything?

Setting aside the apparent contradiction of the aim, why try to do that in the first place? Isn't it the point of being higher level that formerly fearsome foes are no longer such threats, and one can,  you know, venture into the deeper dungeons to take on elder dragons, balrogs, vampire wizards, lich lords, demon princes, etc.?