I'm a player in face-to-face home brew game where the GM has interpreted 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons using the 5e HERO System. It's kind of wonky since it uses just hit points and no stun points like in regular HERO. I can let most of all the wonkiness slide in an effort to be amenable, social, and a team player.
However, there is one thing about the combat that really irks me and rubs me the wrong way. He allows ranged combatants, i.e. bowmen, fire at us even when we've engaged them in melee. He doesn't allow opportunity attacks in his game, so these bowmen can happily and gleefully reloaded and fire in our face while we're swinging melee weapons at them from an adjacent hex.
Does the regular 5e HERO System allow this? Can a ranged person fire on someone in the adjacent hex that has engaged them with a melee weapon?
Yes, you can use a ranged attack on opponents adjacent to you. Also, the Hero Games forum is a better place to ask this question.
Quote from: DeadUematsu;344296Yes, you can use a ranged attack on opponents adjacent to you. Also, the Hero Games forum is a better place to ask this question.
Thanks. :)
If you follow up there, please post a link here. I'd like to see the result as I've gotten a bit interested in FH again. Not that I'd allow bows to be used that way regardless of what the rules say.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;344308If you follow up there, please post a link here. I'd like to see the result as I've gotten a bit interested in FH again. Not that I'd allow bows to be used that way regardless of what the rules say.
Well, I wasn't going to at first, but I just might now. I wanted to confirm it the game worked this way. The GM of our game is working on a second draft of his game and asked our input last session. I brought up this issue up and he seemed like he would compromise a bit: if an archer has an arrow knocked already then he can fire while adjacent, and, if not, then he would have to take a step back and not be adjacent to reload and fire. I am alright with this if he goes with it. I told him flat out that if this rule remained unchanged then when we re-create our characters under version 2.0 of his system that I am going to dump every single point into archery combat and ignore melee weapons altogether. I mean what's the point, really, because if you dump all your points into a ranged weapon then you get the benefit of both a melee and ranged weapon for the one cost; whereas, if you spend points in both a melee weapon and ranged weapon then you've gimped yourself compared to someone who only has points in a ranged weapon.
I was being a bit lazy as well. I finally dug out my HERO book and looked it up for myself. I found this passage under the
Fighting section and
How Combat Works subsection on page 370:
All combat can be divided into two types: Hand-To-Hand Combat (HTH) and Ranged Combat. HTH Combat is combat between characters who are standing in the same or adjacent hexes. Usually HTH Combat involves punching or melee weapons such as swords, not attacks like guns or energy bolts that can affect targets at a distance. Ranged Combat is any combat between characters who are not in the same or adjacent hexes; it requires weapons such as guns or bows, or Ranged attacks such as Energy Blasts or RKAs. Assuming special effects, common sense, and/ or dramatic sense don't forbid it, a character can use a Ranged attack against a character in the same hex as he, or an adjacent hex.I bolded the last two lines because they seem contradictory to me.
Quote from: Drohem;344312Usually HTH Combat involves punching or melee weapons such as swords, not attacks like guns or energy bolts that can affect targets at a distance. Ranged Combat is any combat between characters who are not in the same or adjacent hexes; it requires weapons such as guns or bows, or Ranged attacks such as Energy Blasts or RKAs. Assuming special effects, common sense, and/ or dramatic sense don’t forbid it, a character can use a Ranged attack against a character in the same hex as he, or an adjacent hex.[/I]
I bolded the last two lines because they seem contradictory to me.
Yeah. I think its saying that "Ranged Combat" and the special rules of the title "Ranged combat" apply when someone is at a distance. However, you can still used a ranged attack device/power/tool at someone in the hex with your PC or next to them if its special effects/trappings would make sense for it too.
Common Sense: Guns still work at melee ranges. So do some powers. Rockets, arrows from bows, throwing, and the like? Not so much. They need a bit of distance to actually work and not just foul up the shot.
At least that's the way I see it.
All those words in that big book and they're still that unclear? Sigh.
OK, now I feel kind of stupid. I went over to the HERO forum and looked about to try and find something concerning my question. I couldn't find any threads on it, so I posted my question into Mr. Long's special sub-forum where only he can reply. After I submitted the post, the system showed me a list of related threads where questions similar to mine were already asked and answered.
Anyway, here you go Elliot:
Deadly Blow - Ranged vs. Melee (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/59876-Deadly-Blow-Ranged-vs-Melee)
Deadly Blow - Ranged vs. Melee (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/59875-Deadly-Blow-Ranged-vs-Melee)
Using Ranged Attacks in melee (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/45813-Using-Ranged-Attacks-in-melee)
A system for Melee and Ranged weapons (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/38232-A-system-for-Melee-and-Ranged-weapons)
Penalty for using ranged weapon while in melee? (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/33926-Penalty-for-using-ranged-weapon-while-in-melee)
Interesting, sorta.
I notice in there that there's a by-the-book penalty to defense when using a bow in hand-to-hand combat. On top of that I'd either forbid reloading or impose an even bigger penalty if you try to reload while someone's swinging a sword at you.
Also, I forget how reloading works in Hero, but I would assume it takes more time than making an attack. Therefore under the phased action system in Hero a bowman should suffer several attacks between shots taken. Is it possible that your GM has simplified HERO into an I-swing-you-swing system due to D&D influence? If so that might be another way that he's biasing things.
Before I joined the group and they switched to GM's home brew system, they played 3.5 D&D. I believe a lot of his design decisions were based upon the fact that the players wanted something similar to 3.5 D&D in feel and effect.
I noticed too that the DCV is penalized from firing a bow while engaged in melee, and I know for a fact that he hasn't been applying any kind of DCV penalty to the bowmen attacking us. I am definitely going to discuss this with him. He doesn't have the concentration limitation built into the bows which would reduce the bowmens' DCV in half. If this was applied, then I would be perfectly happy with it.
In the game that I am playing, reloading a medium bow takes a 1/2 phase. I know because I bought Weapon Familiarity (bow) for my character. Movement actions always comes before Attack actions. So, if I had my bow in hand, then I could load an arrow and fire in one phase. However, I couldn't move any inches if I wanted to fire continuously as I would have to use my Movement action to move instead of reload an arrow.
Well, ultimately it comes down to your argument that if bows are just as good as swords in hand-to-hand, then you might as well dump all your points into bow. Because the foundation of HERO is balanced effects.
That said, if your GM is amenable you might also suggest that shooting a bow without aiming should incur an attack penalty. It's hard to say what's abstracted into the 1/2 DCV penalty, but in some games you'd have to load, aim, and then shoot; otherwise you'd be making a snap shot.
AoOs are not particularly realistic. They exist because D&D uses 5' spaces, 6 second rounds, and very generous rules for hitting with ranged weapons. The disadvantages of ranged attacks in Hero are handled in other ways. For instance, a bow cannot be used to block. Also, standard bows are Concentration (1/2 DCV) attacks. Further, a moving archer is giving up on Brace and Set, which means that really, he is giving up Brace, Set, and Called Shots.
Keep in mind that the standard 5e fighting space is a 2m hex. 2m is more than enough room to fire off an arrow, in fact, that would be a great range to do it.
I did some further research in the book and it does seem that firing a bow has the Concentration limitation which halves the bowman's DCV while firing or reloading until their next phase or they abort to defend.
I know that my GM is not using this limitation which struck me as odd that bandit fodder were expert bowmen with uber concentration and could stand their like a statue and reload and fire on someone attacking them with a melee weapon.
Also, I know the HERO System and D&D are vastly different so I am not making one for one comparisons here. I realize that they're apples and oranges and I am totally cool with that. However, it stretches my personal limits of verisimilitude when there is no ramifications for a person trying to load and fire an arrow at someone who is swinging a melee weapon in their face. *shrug*
I started two threads over on the HERO boards about this, they may be useful:
Ranged attacks while engaged in melee (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76744-Ranged-attacks-while-engaged-in-melee)
Apology (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76746-Apology)
The 1/2 DCV for the archers is a must. Barring some amazingly skilled, and paying points for it, archers, they should have the penalty. When we played HERO, we never forbade using bows in melee but the DCV penalty meant, generally, no one did. It was far better for an archer to pull a sword when engaged.
HERO originally was Champions and dealt with supers so I can see why there is no intrinsic penalty to ranged combat in melee. Cyclops never seemed to mind...